Sapere aude

Faithfulservant said:
This is a normal atheistic answer to the question of morality. Slavery. God never said slavery is ok but culturally it was accepted. I believe we are all in slavery today. I work every day to pay off debt. I do not work for myself. If I want things I have to have credit and with that credit comes interest. I pay taxes on the money I earn and pay taxes when I spend that money. This is slavery and it's cultural. But I know that it's wrong to murder or steal I know what's right and wrong. I feel bad if I hurt someone or to see injustice. We can turn on the news and see the decline of morality every day. We say what is wrong with everyone why is there is much evil in the world. That's morality.
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You raise some interesting points.

Exodus 21:20-21,
"And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

Ezekiel 18:13, "He lends at interest and takes a profit. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head."

Clearly slavery is fine (but coveting your neighbors things is forbidden!).

Clearly you shouldn't be paying interest, because the person who charged you should be dead.

Morality today is much better than in the past. Women have rights, there are no more slaves, there is not a World War, there is freedom of religion ((most democracies), etc.
 
Naturalist said:
The mind, being non-physical, has free will. It can choose as it pleases, unencumbered by the physical world.
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Too simplistic .. we cannot choose to be free if we are imprisoned, for example. :)

Naturalist said:
We know that isn't true. Our mind is a manifestation of our brain, and our brain is physical.
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We do NOT know that is true .. there you go with your version of "facts" again. :)

Re. facts: a few years ago, it was "a fact" that butter was not good for you.
A few years later, it suddenly IS good for you.

Naturalist said:
The drivers will use their brains to make their decisions, but those decisions are based on past physical occurrences..
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Oh dear .. so you're not CHOOSING to believe that you have no free-will ..
..it is due to past occurrences. ;)

Naturalist said:
The choice a person makes will be based on that past. They are not free to make another choice.
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That's absurd!
You expect me to believe that your series of posts is beyond your control? :D
 
RJM said:
The materialist hypothesis:

We don't know this at all -- because we don't know what exists outside of the timespace limits of nature

The non-materialist hypothesis:

"Light is the shadow of God"
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If they exist outside the time space limits of nature, then they have nothing to do with us.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Too simplistic .. we cannot choose to be free if we are imprisoned, for example. :)


We do NOT know that is true .. there you go with your version of "facts" again. :)

Re. facts: a few years ago, it was "a fact" that butter was not good for you.
A few years later, it suddenly IS good for you.


Oh dear .. so you're not CHOOSING to believe that you have no free-will ..
..it is due to past occurrences. ;)


That's absurd!
You expect me to believe that your series of posts is beyond your control? :D
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1. We still choose to be free, we just can't accomplish it.
2. We change our minds when new facts demand it. If you have facts to show I'm wrong, then present them. Otherwise, it is what it is.
3. Your comment might anger me and I leave and not post again. Or I might be more invigorated to post. Whichever I choose, will be based on the past.
 
Naturalist said:
..Your comment might anger me and I leave and not post again. Or I might be more invigorated to post. Whichever I choose, will be based on the past.
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Ah .. now it is based on the past..
You still made a choice though.

Driver 1: Slow down, you idiot!
Driver 2: I can't .. my decision to go fast is based on the past. :D
 
Naturalist said:
If they exist outside the time space limits of nature, then they have nothing to do with us.
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Wrong.

We have subtle senses beyond our five animal senses. The divine reaches and communicates in many ways.

The divine surrounds and contains and permeates man

That's the whole point, imo
 
RJM said:
Wrong.

We have subtle senses beyond our five animal senses. The divine reaches and communicates in many ways.

The divine surrounds and contains and permeates man

That's the whole point, imo
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That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Ah .. now it is based on the past..
You still made a choice though.

Driver 1: Slow down, you idiot!
Driver 2: I can't .. my decision to go fast is based on the past. :D
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I didn't say choices don't exist, get off of that.

You make a choice, the choice is based on the past. If your parents didn't have sex you wouldn't even be here.

If you had different parents in a different culture, you'd make different choices...etc., etc.

Have you ever craved borscht?
 
RJM said:
Influenced but not dictated by the oast
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Dictated by the past. If your parents didn't have sex, you wouldn't be here. If you had different parents, you would have different DNA, you would have a different brain, etc., etc.
 
RJM said:
How do you know?
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I don't know....I can't say it's there or not, and neither can you.

But since I'm rational, I ratio my belief to the evidence. No evidence, no reason to believe it. But I could be wrong.
 
RJM said:
Yup
Thanks
Goodnight :)
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Yup, we could be wrong about lots of things....that's not a productive outlook.

Science works on assuming that evidence supports reality.

That has been very productive for humans.

Just believing, not nearly so much.
 
Naturalist said:
Just believing, not nearly so much.
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I'm coming back to answer this.

You talk about just believing. I talk about experience of spiritual help. The Benedictine monks end every service with the words: "May the Divine assistance be always with us (and with our absent brethren)"

The divine assistance -- the spiritual -- is not just a belief but an absolute reality to those who have experienced it. The only true reality.

Of course materialists dispute that this is reality and put it down to hallucinations, etc.

Perhaps one day -- and I hope the extremity of loss, surrender, never does happen to you -- but on that day tgat you have to call -- you will be heard.

I guarantee. You will get a response that you cannot deny

And then you'll know, and no human materialist wisdom will ever take the knowledge away from you
 
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RJM said:
I'm coming back to answer this.

You talk about just believing. I talk about experience of spiritual help. The Benedictine monks end every service with the words: "May the Divine assistance be always with us (and with our absent brethren)"

The divine assistance -- the spiritual -- is not just a belief but an absolute reality to those who have experienced it.

Of course some deny that this is reality and put it down to hallucinations, etc.

Perhaps one day -- and I hope the extremity of surrender never does happen to you -- but one day when you call, you will be heard. I guarantee. You will get a response that you cannot deny

And then you'll know, and no human materialist wisdom will ever take the knowledge away from you
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I would believe I'd succumbed to some mental issue, actually. Maybe dementia, someone slipped me a drug, etc.

But look at the Benedictine monks...they've been around for about 1,500 years.

The planet would not be significantly different, if they were here or not.

Compare with Fritz Haber, for example, who only lived about 70 years, but he gave us agricultural fertilizers, still in use today. Those fertilizers have greatly impacted humanity (they've also damaged the environment due to improper use).
 
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