I'm sure, but as I am sure you understand, I do not accept the Baha'i writings as authoritative.
Sapere aude
- Thread starter Naturalist
- Start date
I rather disagree, I think there's more to it than that.
In universal metaphysics, there is a tendency, one might describe as negative, entropic, downward, and so on, as inescapable element of a finitude – at the level of the world, where there are virtues, there are vices. Where there is light, there is darkness, and where there is a tendency to the light, there is a tendency to the dark (at the risk of superficial Star Wars comparisons).
Wherever and in whatever manner there is good, there is its contrary.
The Transcendentals are above the world, thus above duality. Duality at the level of the world is real, at a higher level it is an illusion.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Very unfortunate.
And then, sayIng in simple English, You were created to bear and endure. (God talking in Chauser's English)
I do not take the uneducated 19th Century Iranian as the light of the world (what narcissism) and then, "O Ppatience of the worlds" (What narcissism).
There is no light only absence of darkness. (does not mean anything, take it this way for that, just useless utterances). ..
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
That is the choice God gives us all.
The purpose of this matrix being the bounty and grace of free will choices, to give us the chance to embrace all the virtues and morals, that are of God in the age we live.
Regards Tony
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
God has created more evil than good.
Hmmm ... I'd say humanity has.
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,158
- Reaction score
- 351
- Points
- 83
I disagree. The human race thrives due to our capacity for survival. In the natural order, nothing sustains itself without the alteration or consumption of other forms of life—it's the essence of existence. Linking any perceived "evil" in humanity's survival to a biased perspective, particularly a Christian one, is the only basis for such associations. Without such biases, the dualities of good and evil are rendered nonexistent.
It is a common belief in many religious traditions that humans are created in the image of God. If one were to perceive humanity as inherently inclined toward evil, the source of such inclination would indeed be traced back to the divine image in which humans are supposedly created.
If one accepts the narrative that an all-powerful, all-knowing deity fashioned this world, it implies a deliberate decision to incorporate elements like earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, and diseases. These phenomena result in widespread, indiscriminate destruction and immense suffering. Given the omnipotence attributed to this deity, it would have been equally feasible to create a world devoid of such distressing events. The logical deduction is that, if a god exists, such a being appears to possess sadistic and malevolent tendencies, making it unworthy of veneration.
A clear example (of which there are many) is immediately after receiving the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not kill.” God commanded Moses to “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:1)
Last edited:
I don't think anyone's doing that?
However, the Abrahamics don't, so ...
It's a common, but ill-conceived idea, with regards to both God and the world. I've answered it here.
No, that's not 'logical' at all.
And you can rest assured such observations have been made, and adequately answered, for some time.
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,158
- Reaction score
- 351
- Points
- 83
I'm glad to see that you agree with me about Duality . . . it doesn't exist, there are only gradations of This or That
"Paradise – any paradise – cannot be perfect in the absolute sense – because as Jesus said: "there is none good but one, that is, God.“ (Mark 10:18). Were paradise perfect absolutely, then it would be All-Perfect, and equal to God. If effect, God would have to replicate His own being. Therefore, when we speak of paradise – albeit one created good to the divine eye – it is a created good, as good or as perfect so far as it is possible for a created state to be.'
I like this too . . . it fits in with the WLHP in that 'We Create our Heaven or Hell". Since I don't believe in an external God, this concept works for the WLHP in that our God is Us and what we do or don't do here on the physical plane determines our next Consciousness. Almost similar to the Quantum Double-Slit Experiment in that "the observer shapes their own reality."
It sure is logical . . . If God had the power to create something from absolutely nothing, God would have the power to prevent genuine evil.
Theological determinism is the thesis that God exists and has infallible knowledge of all true propositions including propositions about our future actions; the problem of free will and theological determinism is the problem of understanding how, if at all, we can have free will if God (who cannot be mistaken) knows what we are going to do.
In a recent interview, the British comedian Stephen Fry delivered a vicious, scathing attack on the Judeo-Christian God when asked what he would say if it turned out, after he died, that God did in fact exist. He called this God a “maniac”, pointing to the large amount of unnecessary suffering in the world which he, by definition, created and allows.
The existence of suffering is an impossible problem for believers in an all-good, caring God to solve. Even if they use the wiggle room to argue that without some suffering there can be no charity; or that people who do wrong are punished, they cannot account for the suffering of innocent children and animals, or worse, the devout believers in their faith.
What kind of God, we may ask – and Fry does, more colourfully – has created a world in which children die in floods, starve to death, perish in agony from TB and malaria? What kind of God allows people who worship and adore him to be murdered, raped, tortured and come to countless other hideous ends?
This does not preclude the existence of any God, of course. God might be, as Fry has it, a maniac. He may be a vicious, sadistic God. Or, like the Greeks and Romans before us, he may be a pantheon of narcissistic Gods who have no interest in looking out for us.
But a God who was benevolent and loving, as we are told the Christian God is, would never create the world we live in. Believing in him requires either shuttering yourself off from the carnage all around you; or crafting frankly ridiculous excuses (God works in mysterious ways?).
You speak of Christian Apologetics . . . the least convincing arguments born out of attempts to explain flaws in Christian scripture.
Such statements teach us nothing.
We are dealing with this reality, however it came about.
..so if's and but's of a hypothetical reality is a mere distraction.
It is not a problem for those who understand it.
It's all about HOW G-d knows what we will do, and that is due to the nature of time.
What we perceive "has not happened yet" is a perception.
Simply, G-d's perception is different .. time is a part of the creation .. part of the universe.
Therefore, G-d's omniscience does not affect our free-will .. it is similar to relativity in Physics.
I realise that many people cannot grasp this .. they see time as immutable
i.e. what has not happened yet cannot be known by any means .. or time is greater than G-d
If that were true, there would be no believers!
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,158
- Reaction score
- 351
- Points
- 83
No, coming to grips with reality does not include fantasy and make-believe . . . life is too short to be spent in delusion
Kind of falls apart when the fact is there is no evidence of any god . . .It is not a problem for those who understand it.
It's all about HOW G-d knows what we will do, and that is due to the nature of time.
What we perceive "has not happened yet" is a perception.
Simply, G-d's perception is different .. time is a part of the creation .. part of the universe.
Therefore, G-d's omniscience does not affect our free-will .. it is similar to relativity in Physics.
I realise that many people cannot grasp this .. they see time as immutable
i.e. what has not happened yet cannot be known by any means .. or time is greater than G-d
If that were true, there would be no believers!
..in your opinion.
The fact is, that you do not KNOW whether G-d exists.
..and btw, the concept of G-d is not the same as goblins in children's story books.
If you think that it is, then you must be either a dim-wit, or lying to yourself.
The Bible and Qur'an are for adults .. it is not classified as fiction for a very good reason.
i.e. It isn't.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
And you know that God exists.
Why do you say that? Do you have more proof for existence of God than the proof for existence of Goblins?
Bible and Qur'an are adult fiction, any other classification will be wrong.
Absolutely not !
Fiction are books that have been written by an author, through their imagination.
Non-fiction are books such as history, geography or science, which endeavour
to report events of some kind.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Who knows if Bible and Qur'an are or are not?
I do..
The Bible is a collection of scrolls written by many authors.
Are you saying that these authors ranging over 100's of years
have conspired to pretend to report events, and have made them all up??
Non-fiction!
If it were known that it was all a conspiracy, then yes .. fiction.
'Amir Alzzalam
Šayṭānist
- Messages
- 1,158
- Reaction score
- 351
- Points
- 83
Feel free to show me proof your god exists outside of your imagination . . .
..feel free to show me your proof of conspiracy..
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
It is and is not a conspiracy. The earlier writings were of the people who believed so, the later writings were to convince people that what was written earlier was true.
Even Othman chose from among what was with the Muslims. Chose some and did not choose others, and then ordered to destroy all that which was not chosen.
OK – but as 'Us' is generally understood as fallible, ephemeral and contingent by both science and religion, and you haven't offered any reason, proof nor evidence why one should think otherwise, I'd say there's a gulf between the two positions.
You also seem to hint at some determinate order in which such operations can take place?
As said, allowing for the nature of the Infinite and the All-Possible, there might well be such a world, but it is not this one.
From the viewpoint of this world, the question is self-defeating because that which by definition is 'God' is not subject to any constraint.
Therefore logic says the critique is ill-founded.
Metaphysics has the answer.
Yes, but there are 'strong' and 'weak' determinisms, and the arguments against both, tell us the thesis is not cut and dried.
Difficult, yes, but not impossible, and not dependent on your 'wriggle room'.
This is the argument of popular entertainment, not theology.
I refer you to my comment re metaphysics, above.