There is no proof of God ...
- Thread starter Thomas
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I can offer as much certainty that both Religion and Science can produce in this matrix we currently live in. As there is One God who sends the Messengers, no doubt, 100%.
The proof of God is the Messengers, yet who are they? No one can know 100%, they are not men like us, they are pre-existing, the first and the last.
What does that all mean, what is the reality of the Holy Spirit, created of God?
The issue is we will all see the same "Truths" in a different light, a different frame of reference.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
All the personal records of those that met the Messengers could be seen as empirical proof of God, as each of those peoples had extraordinary experiences in connection with the Messengers. Their stories, their experiences are recorded for prosperity, to those that did not get to meet a Messenger in person, in this material world.
NDE's, Dreams, Visions can all be seen as empirical proof, as we are talking about the Spirit, not things of the flesh.
In the case of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, we are fortunate an age of record taking had commenced, we have thousands of first hand experiences recorded.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I can agree we are not able to determine the Essence of God, who is unknowable and unreachable, even to the Messengers.
But God does supply proofs and evidence that are determinable within this matrix.
You offered "Cart before the horse ... you're assuming a judgement."
That I can judge, it is logical that I am/can be judged. Judgement has to come first. That I can Love, it is logical I am/can be loved, Love must come first, in fact it is an act of love that creates us all.
It is humanity that perverts Judgement, Love, in fact all the virtues and we are born in the edge of that perversity.
Regards Tony
'Amir Alzzalam
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Look a Satanist shouldn't have to explain your book to you
"Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect".
And about 100 other verses . . .
'Amir Alzzalam
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Obviously, I'm talking about Christianity . . .
Your faith is not in question, nor is it the question.
Says a believer.
Tony – you have a belief, I have a belief, that's not the question. Everything you say is a 'proof' is subjective interpretation of the data.
It's a proof only because you believe it to be such. For them as don't, it ain't ...
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Good. Thank you.
Now you're talking about faith, not proof.
Actually, it's not.
That's like saying 'because I exist, God must exist' – the first proposition (you) does not necessarily infer the second (God)
Only as it is assumed according to your reasoning.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I see Faith must be based on proof and evidences given of God. There is no judgement if there is nothing to be judged against, if no proof and evidence was given.
Enough said.
Regards Tony
'Amir Alzzalam
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What else would I be talking about?
It's not proof .. it's evidence, and we have been given a conscience.
We are all in "the hands of G-d" .. it is none but G-d who guides, or sends astray.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Yes it is God that Guides, whomsoever God so chooses.
The evidence is gathered to prove the case.
Evidence = Proof
Evidence of God
1) The Person of the Messenger
2) The life of the Messenger.
3) The Message given.
John 3:15-17
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
The Truth is the Truth, how we interpret it is our own challenge, a God given challenge.
The Evidence of Christ remains valid proof of God from the Beginning until the End.
I see this all in a different frame of reference from you Thomas.
Regards Tony
It's not though, is it..
It's only "a proof" if you think that the evidence is beyond doubt.
Clearly, many people think that it isn't .. it requires a person to BELIEVE it is true.
Hence we see many creeds etc.
..but do you?
You are convinced by the evidence .. but you cannot prove that G-d exists.
In fact, I would say that G-d WANTS us to believe without empirical proof.
Not necessarily – one might argue that the Platonists, for example, had no 'revelation' on which they based their proofs of the One, other than the human intellect.
But to the point:
Man A: I believe in God.
Man B: I don't.
Man A: The Messengers tell us ...
Man B: As I don't believe in God, therefore it follows that I don't believe in their message. Show me a proof, and your faith is not a proof. You could be deluded.
I know you do, but I'm trying to make it plain that because you believe what you believe, that does not necessarily present itself as a proof to anyone else.
All along you assume a thing to be true if you believe it – it may well be, it might not be, your belief is insufficient proof in itself.
The atheist says – prove your God exists.
My response is – God transcends the world, ergo God can neither be proved nor disproved at the level of the world.
When I say 'at the level of the world' I mean material, physical proof. God can be reasoned intellectually, and those reasons can be disputed, but they can't be disproved, so we're back where we started.
My point precisely.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I see that as the whole purpose of free will choices.
It requires is to go beyond self and examine the spiritual aspect of our being to examine proofs of the spirit beyond our senses.
Regards Tony