Eisegesis.
on Faith
- Thread starter Thomas
- Start date
There is another way of looking at the text that does not conform to your assertions.
Quran 5:72 says God is not "a third of three".
But Christians do not believe God is one of three Gods, nor that Father+Son+Holy Spirit = God – so we (Christians) do not and never have said God is a 'third of three'.
Scholars agree that the Quran teachings are not necessarily irreconcilable with orthodox Christian doctrine.
While the Quran makes no positive statements about either the Doctrine of the Trinity or orthodox Christology generally, the Quran does have many affirmations of Christian orthodox belief – the Virgin Birth, the Immaculate Conception, and so on.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Short answer Thomas, sorry very bust in life at this time, full time work and building extensions as owner builder.
Basically Jesus is not God, no Messengers know the Essence of God. Thus we have God the Holy Spirit and the Messengers.
The Messengers are eager "Self of God" by being Annointed of God with the Holy Spirit, which is all the Attributes given of God.
The Messengers do not share the Essence of God, which is unknowable, unfathomable. Dare I say, outside of creation.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Quickly, I see the unity is at the level of the Spirit Thomas, that is the only way it can be reflected in this world.
The Messengers are One in the Holy Spirit, we, born of the Himan Spirit and not Annointed by God, must be born again into that Spirit. That is our unity in our diversity as humans.
There is no other lasting unity, but in the Holy Spirit, any material unity is temporary, destined to perish.
May we all live in Christ.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
That would be the Word from God Thomas. I have embraced a Message that includes advice of how humanity has moved from the path to the narrow gate.
I just share those concepts and you see those concepts belittle your Faith. I see they embolden and strengthen our Faith in the One God, through Christ.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Would the Jews argue Jesus does not fit into any exegetical meaning of the Tanakh?
Do we not need Jesus to see how Christ is foretold. Does not the Message of Jesus Christ then redefine the way we see the Tanakh?
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I have to look up those words.
Then your quarrels are not with me, they Re with Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, as my ideas are from what they have written. I can back all I offer with many quotes.
But remember, no one likes the quotes. So please note I do not interpret text in such a way as to introduce my own presuppositions, I give interpretation from other Holy Books and Writings given after Jesus the Christ.
Regards Tony
Of course the same argument applies to Christian prayers to saints. Are they resurrected temporarily to hear and intercede, before the final resurrection and last judgement?
For instance in order to be canonized a Christian saint such as Mother Theresa needs to have performed at least one miracle from after death.
They find a legalese way to get around this
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The Baha'i agree with the Quran when it comes telling Christians to abandon their Trinity belief, but when it comes to the last day resurrection of the dead and judgement -- which is core to Islam -- then the Baha'i don't seem to agree with the Quran about that belief. So ...
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I would offer that is because the raising of the dead is not a physical unfolding. It is the return of the Attributes as offered by the Messengers, it is embracing the new laws.
The Holy books of Christians and Muslims tell us that the Flesh amounts to nothing, in one way and another. These teachings will be found in all God given Faiths. The entire purpose of this life is to know and Love God, in Spirit. It is offered as being born from the Flesh into acceptance and service inspired by the Holy Spirit, which is all the virtues and submission unto the laws that will allow that to happen.
Regards Tony
Belief in the resurrection of the dead and last day judgement to heaven or to hell is central to Islam. It is one of the pillars of the faith and is repeated on virtually every page of the Quran.
It is unequivocal and clear. There is no reference to embracing new laws
Consider the Day when the quaking blast will come to pass
followed by a second blast.
The denier’s hearts on that day will be trembling in horror
with their eyes downcast.
˹But now˺ they ask mockingly, ‘Will we really be restored to our former state,
even after we have been reduced to decayed bones?’
Adding, ‘Then such a return would be a total loss for us!’
But indeed, it will take only one mighty blast,
and at once they will be above ground.
79:6-14 Quran.com
Close friends will be enemies to one another on that Day, except the righteous,
who will be told, “O My servants! There is no fear for you Today, nor will you grieve
those who believed in Our signs and fully submitted to Us.
Enter Paradise, you and your spouses, rejoicing.”
Golden trays and cups will be passed around to them. There will be whatever the souls desire and the eyes delight in. And you will be there forever.
That is the Paradise which you will be awarded for what you used to do.
There you will have abundant fruit to eat from.
Indeed, the wicked will be in the torment of Hell forever.
It will never be lightened for them, and there they will be overwhelmed with despair.
We did not wrong them, but it was they who were the wrongdoers.
They will cry, “O Mâlik! Let your Lord finish us off.” He will answer, “You are definitely here to stay.”
Quran 43:66-77
There are dozens of such passages.
The Day of Resurrection
Clearly Baha’i do not accept the words of the Quran in context on the subject of Qiyamah The Day of Reckoning, although they do accept that the words of the Quran on the subject of the Trinity give them the right to correct Christians about their religion?
What do Muslims say?
@muhammad_isa
@talib-al-kalim
It is unequivocal and clear. There is no reference to embracing new laws
Consider the Day when the quaking blast will come to pass
followed by a second blast.
The denier’s hearts on that day will be trembling in horror
with their eyes downcast.
˹But now˺ they ask mockingly, ‘Will we really be restored to our former state,
even after we have been reduced to decayed bones?’
Adding, ‘Then such a return would be a total loss for us!’
But indeed, it will take only one mighty blast,
and at once they will be above ground.
79:6-14 Quran.com
Close friends will be enemies to one another on that Day, except the righteous,
who will be told, “O My servants! There is no fear for you Today, nor will you grieve
those who believed in Our signs and fully submitted to Us.
Enter Paradise, you and your spouses, rejoicing.”
Golden trays and cups will be passed around to them. There will be whatever the souls desire and the eyes delight in. And you will be there forever.
That is the Paradise which you will be awarded for what you used to do.
There you will have abundant fruit to eat from.
Indeed, the wicked will be in the torment of Hell forever.
It will never be lightened for them, and there they will be overwhelmed with despair.
We did not wrong them, but it was they who were the wrongdoers.
They will cry, “O Mâlik! Let your Lord finish us off.” He will answer, “You are definitely here to stay.”
Quran 43:66-77
There are dozens of such passages.
The Day of Resurrection
Clearly Baha’i do not accept the words of the Quran in context on the subject of Qiyamah The Day of Reckoning, although they do accept that the words of the Quran on the subject of the Trinity give them the right to correct Christians about their religion?
What do Muslims say?
@muhammad_isa
@talib-al-kalim
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were born into Islam and were practicing Muslims before the Bab and Baha'u'llah both declared their Messages to Humanity.
No one knew the Quran better than the Bab and Baha'u'llah, no Muslim divine could face them in a challenge about knowledge of the Quran.
Logically, as both the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled all that was expected in the quran, it appears the Baha'i may very well have a very good foundation of knowledge about the purpose of the quran.
The Bab declared his mission on Pilgrimage at the Kaaba to the custodian. He was later arrested. This is an extract from Nabil’s narrative that describes that momentous meeting:
“Upon His arrival, the Bab observed that every seat in that hall was occupied except one which had been reserved for the Vali-‘Ahd. He greeted the assembly and, without the slightest hesitation, proceeded to occupy that vacant seat. The majesty of His gait, the expression of overpowering confidence which sat upon His brow—above all, the spirit of power which shone from His whole being, appeared to have for a moment crushed the soul out of the body of those whom He had greeted. A deep, a mysterious silence, suddenly fell upon them. Not one soul in that distinguished assembly dared breathe a single word. At last the stillness which brooded over them was broken by the Nizamu’l-‘Ulama’ [i.e., the prince’s tutor]. ‘Whom do you claim to be,’ he asked the Bab, ‘and what is the message which you have brought?’ ‘I am,’ thrice exclaimed the Bab, ‘I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person.’”
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I wonder why, if the Baha'i follow the Quran, that they do not believe in the last day and the resurrection of the dead -- the actual human dead of all the ages including Adam and Abraham -- to final judgement heaven or hell?
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I understand. In order to support the claims of their new returned Christ, it's necessary to 'interpret' the words of both the New Testament and the Quran to say exactly the opposite of what they do say
O believers! Have faith in Allah, his messenger, the book he has revealed to his messenger, and the scriptures he revealed before. Indeed, whoever denies Allah, his angels, his books, is messengers, and the Last Day has clearly gone far astray.
Quran 4:136
However I said I wasn't going to waste my life exposing these Baha'i falsehoods. So ...
O believers! Have faith in Allah, his messenger, the book he has revealed to his messenger, and the scriptures he revealed before. Indeed, whoever denies Allah, his angels, his books, is messengers, and the Last Day has clearly gone far astray.
Quran 4:136
However I said I wasn't going to waste my life exposing these Baha'i falsehoods. So ...
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
One could consider that the quoted passage is 100% applicable to your stance RJM.
The passage could be offering we have to beleive in all the Messengers and this the "Last Day"
While you do continue, I will offer different frames of references RJM. I have learned over the years, from my own life experiences, that one can never say never. Have a great story about that!
Regards Tony
Bábís and then Baháʼís see Shaykhism as a spiritual ancestor of their movement, preparing the way for the Báb and eventually Baháʼu'lláh. According to this view, Shaykhism has outlived its eschatological purpose and is no longer relevant. There are many connections between Bábism and Shaykhism. The Báb met with Siyyid Kazim several times and more than half of the 'prominent' converts to the Bábí Faith in its first four years were Shaykhis according to Moojan Momen and Peter Smith. One key similarity between Shaykhism and the Bábí and Baháʼí Faiths is their shared emphasis on a symbolic and allegorical understanding of religious scripture.
Shaykhism
Bahai religion is derived from a Shia offshoot in Iran.
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