on Faith

[talib-al-kalim]

Muhammad (pbuh) met Jesus, John the Baptist, Joseph, Idris, Aaron, Moses, and Abraham and Adam, in heaven -- I think?

The Night Journey
There are different accounts of what occurred during the Miʿraj, but most narratives have the same elements: Muhammad ascends into heaven with the angel Gabriel and meets a different prophet at each of the seven levels of heaven; first Adam, then John the Baptist and Jesus, then Joseph, then Idris, then Aaron, then Moses, and lastly Abraham. After Muhammad meets with Abraham, he continues on to meet God without Gabriel.

It poses the problem of how Adam, Moses and Noah were resurrected from the dead for the meeting, because the resurrection of the dead is said to happen (only) on the last day

Why is it a night journey, not a day journey?
Because we sleep at night. And we have dreams. Most of them are just a remix of the last days and we forget them.
Some stay in our minds, and they make sense when we reflect them.

I don't think that this has been different for the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).

I suppose that he had a dream that was remarkable, and he shared it with others. It's a remarkable sign, but it is still a dream vision, not pure reality.

I'm also sometimes dreaming of my father who has died not supposing that he has risen from the dead.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It depends what you mean by 'attributes' –

All nature is created, hence it's source and origin is in the Divine, but you can't strip every attribute from a given nature, else the nature would be an empty shell. A things nature says what it is, and how it is ...

You are correct and clarification is needed. I see that there is no evil in nature, the entire creation is a reflection of all the God given attributes, a perfect creation to enable the use of free will.

The human nature as such is also not evil, but we have been given a rational mind. The human is given a soul and is born on the edge of darkness and the beginning of light, thus the human nature can become what we know as evil.

The darkness is our animal condition the light is the potential of the Spirit. We get to choose the attributes that enable birth and growth.

A massive topic on its own.

Regards Tony

 

[wil]

Thank you, that makes much more sense. But it also taked about practicing rituals, which we do not have, thus I thought it may be referencing the sacrament in some way.

Thus my frame of reference was to broad.

Regards Tony

No rituals? No celebrations? No specific prayers?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But the problem is that Jesus Christ already said it. What's the need for Baha'u'llah's repetition?

So it’s just nice sounding words that add nothing to the life and words of Jesus..

In fact Baha’i obviously DO consider the teachings of Baha’u’llah superior to the earlier teachings of the ‘messengers’ who preceded him (and none of whom claimed 'Christ' status)

I want to ask a question @Tony Bristow-Stagg

If the new updated teachings of Baha’u’llah Christ the Father are not ‘superior’ to the old outdated teachings of Jesus Christ the Son – what is their purpose? Why is Baha'u'llah needed?

RJM, with this we can contemplate on our own education, each grade and each lesson is built upon with a greater knowledge and expands our understanding of what we previously have learned. None of the previous lessons are obsolete, as they are the foundations required.

Thus it is the same with all the God given Messages, each builds upon our understanding.

Now you have also stated another truth, that religions are abrogated.

Just as we do not go back to grade one, we also do this in faith when we embrace the class we are currently in, the lessons of grade 1 ( we could aquatic that to Adam) are not forgotten, we learn more from the teacher that is currently teaching us. None of those teachers are better than another, as each was given a class to teach, and each were given a specific lesson to teach, but they all belong to the same cause of education.

I see the past is abrogated so we can move forward to the next lessons free of attachment to any of the aspects that were only applicable to the grade we are in.

Example, (please its not meant as any condemnation of past practices, I hope you can see that these were Newcastle steps.)

I use the sacrament again as an example. Partaking of the Bread and Wine in remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. For hundreds of years we used the bread and wine as symbols to deeps spiritual understanding and connections to the Spirit that was Christ. After the lesson is learn, the intent known in mind and heart, then we can partake of this without the symbols that accompanied the lesson.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No rituals? No celebrations? No specific prayers?

I would offer one can look up the difference between worship and ritual. Worship itself is not a ritual, we can add ritual to worship.

Saying no rituals may not be entiely correct, I have not really explored this in great depth.

Celebrations can have no attachment to ritual as a ritual in religion can be a "ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order".

In the Baha'i Faith there is no set order to any celebration. The 19 day feast has 3 components, Prayer, Administrative and Social, but no set order was given in the Writings. As beleivers, we could eventually make a ritual out of the process. A Baha'i wedding only has to consist of the prayer Vows of "Verily we will all abide by the Will of God" said by the bride and groom.

The Baha'i burial is the only Congregational prayer, but no ritual of the process is set.

That is my understanding, Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

No rituals? No celebrations? No specific prayers?

Of course they have.

They are required to chant Allah-u-Abha 99 times in the morning facing the grave of Baha'u'llah, as well as other obligatory prayers involving fixed gestures and ablutions and so on, and various feasts and dedications every few weeks.

It's self-deception to the nth degree

 

[RJM]

Ok, for my last ever response to @Tony Bristow-Stagg, let’s take these falsehoods point by point:

with this we can contemplate on our own education, each grade and each lesson is built upon with a greater knowledge and expands our understanding of what we previously have learned. None of the previous lessons are obsolete, as they are the foundations required.

Thus it is the same with all the God given Messages, each builds upon our understanding.

Although this applies to material education, it is plainly not the case for religion.

The ‘education’ provided by the Buddha or by Jesus is absolutely not limited to any one age of humanity. Nor is it ‘lower grade’ than the teachings of Baha’u’llah. They are eternal spiritual truths, unconnected to the state of the world.

Jesus or Buddha or Zorarster cannot be compared to Baha’u’llah as like primary school teachers to a university doctorate professor. Each religion is spiritually complete in itself, for all time, regardless of the material conditions of the particular age of humanity.

So to say “with all the God given Messages, each builds upon our understanding” is just false. It’s untrue.

Now you have also stated another truth, that religions are abrogated.

Just as we do not go back to grade one, we also do this in faith when we embrace the class we are currently in, the lessons of grade 1 ( we could aquatic that to Adam) are not forgotten, we learn more from the teacher that is currently teaching us. None of those teachers are better than another, as each was given a class to teach, and each were given a specific lesson to teach, but they all belong to the same cause of education.

I see the past is abrogated so we can move forward to the next lessons free of attachment to any of the aspects that were only applicable to the grade we are in.

But they are clearly not. It is untrue to say they are.

Buddhism, Judaism, Islam and Christianity are clearly not abrogated by any new religion. Each one remains complete in itself. The idea that Baha’i requires the abrogation of older religions to the word of Baha’u’llah for the next 800 years is false on multiple levels. It’s untrue.

I use the sacrament again as an example. Partaking of the Bread and Wine in remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. For hundreds of years we used the bread and wine as symbols to deeps spiritual understanding and connections to the Spirit that was Christ. After the lesson is learn, the intent known in mind and heart, then we can partake of this without the symbols that accompanied the lesson.

This again is just false on so many levels. It shows absolutely zero understanding of the true nature of the Eucharistic sacrament down 2000 years since the last supper.

The physical presence of the bread and wine are intrinsic to how the sacrament has lasted down 2000 years – until Baha’i come along wanting replace it with a purely mental and imaginary scenario. Like most of these Baha’i ‘teachings’ it’s purely a made-up fantasy – a particularly egregious one -- it’s not the reality.

Really, these posts by one who sets himself up as a spiritual teacher in these forums are all just false on multiple levels.

It’s a pure waste of life trying to correct the daily falsehoods posted. It’s up to intelligent adults to see them for what they are. It’s not my responsibility. It’s like when you chop-off one head, another two falsehoods pop-up to replace it.

It’s doing nothing here to convince Christians to ‘convert’ to Baha’i.

I’m done 'debating' with @Tony Bristow-Stagg and trying to correct his falsehoods. It makes me too angry and that’s just a waste of my own life and valuable peace of mind.

 

[RJM]

Why is it a night journey, not a day journey?
Because we sleep at night. And we have dreams. Most of them are just a remix of the last days and we forget them.
Some stay in our minds, and they make sense when we reflect them.

I don't think that this has been different for the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).

I suppose that he had a dream that was remarkable, and he shared it with others. It's a remarkable sign, but it is still a dream vision, not pure reality.

I'm also sometimes dreaming of my father who has died not supposing that he has risen from the dead.

Ok, I suppose it's hadith, so open to less than literal interpretation?

 

[wil]

Tony... just so you know... you make me dislike everything I ever knew about bahai .

I mean even the gorgeous temples and the actual concept of finding unity in religion.

Your posts and methodology of posting and discussion irritates.me so much it turns me off to ALL of what the Bahai seek to achieve.

I am not alone.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Tony... just so you know... you make me dislike everything I ever knew about bahai .

I mean even the gorgeous temples and the actual concept of finding unity in religion.

Your posts and methodology of posting and discussion irritates.me so much it turns me off to ALL of what the Bahai seek to achieve.

I am not alone.

Wil, I seem to do that to people in life as well. My wife loves me though. It must be my black and white view of life. God seems to give the Message to those that need it most, those that need to change, I have changed a lot, so boy I must have been very irritating in my younger years, overly self assured!

I note that people are not able to handle what Baha'u'llah has offered about their own Faith, to be fair, is this a large part of the issue, is this the main part of the irirritation? I know it is for Thomas and RJM

I am of the opinion that one should not always offer the sweet smelling roses. How often I have seen people attracted by the roses, but when they grab the stem of faith, are unable to stand the thorns that are also attached to the rose, so I warn of the thorns when handing the rose. Maybe that is unwise, but I have embraced the urgency of this age, maybe I should just let it all go, as in reality I am unable to stop any of the events that will change this world.

Your comments suggest that I that need to change, I am aware of my shortcomings. So I put it to you, if you were to find that Baha'u'llah is indeed as claimed and that it is God's Word that is behind all that I post, how would you offer it? Keeping in mind, people struggle with change, especially if it is a challenge to long held beliefs.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I’m done 'debating' with @Tony Bristow-Stagg and trying to correct his falsehoods. It makes me too angry and that’s just a waste of my own life and valuable peace of mind.

RJM I hope all is well and happy. The key here is that you keep coming back and asking questions, we're none of those questions aimed at finding out if what I offered had some truth in it? We're all your questions aimed at finding more kinks in what was offered compared with your understanding?

On other forums, there are many that actually dive into the Baha'i Wrings and Laws so they can bring to the forum all what they see are the kinks in the armour of the Baha'i Writings, so they can show the error inherent. They base these observations on known traditions or current popular moral and ethical standards.

Is this not a refection of the birth of every faith, is this not a reflection of what the disciples and early beleivers would have faced?......... Well many were killed, so maybe it is great that we now have the Web. (Black humor)

I know many do not like my black and white view and practice of life, but it is me, engrained into my psychic, I do wonder why Baha'u'llah gifts such a person, such a gift, I am realising it is all for my own benefit, granted the chance, to change my own self.

So luckily for many, the more I realise this, the less that the forums will draw me into that self and then I will be here no more.

May God grant that, to all that I irritate.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Jesus or Buddha or Zorarster cannot be compared to Baha’u’llah as like primary school teachers to a university doctorate professor. Each religion is spiritually complete in itself, for all time, regardless of the material conditions of the particular age of humanity.

This is the major issue, looking for fault in the Metephor without trying to determine how it is applied to a deeper understanding.

That God gave a Messenger a specific class and age to teach, in no way says that teacher is any less relevant than another, that is one's own choice to think that.

Every one of God's teachers can teach all the classes, but it is God that gives them a specific message in a specific age to teach a specific lesson. All those lesson contain the full potential of a greater understanding.

Jesus says as such a teacher, that he had much more to say, but people of that time could not bear to hear it.

Baha'u'llah has said the same and also had many of his wrirings destroyed, as He also said we could not bear to hear it.

Stay well and happy RJM. We will chat if you change your mind.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Why is it a night journey, not a day journey?
Because we sleep at night. And we have dreams. Most of them are just a remix of the last days and we forget them.
Some stay in our minds, and they make sense when we reflect them.

I don't think that this has been different for the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).

I suppose that he had a dream that was remarkable, and he shared it with others. It's a remarkable sign, but it is still a dream vision, not pure reality.

I'm also sometimes dreaming of my father who has died not supposing that he has risen from the dead.

Ok, I suppose it's hadith, so open to less than literal interpretation?

It is mentioned in the Quran 17:1

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

But I suppose there's nothing to say it could not have been a dream

 

[RJM]

I've asked several questions of @Tony Bristow-Stagg in this thread and most have been ignored or swerved

A person 'offering' to Christians should try to avoid manipulating the scriptures and the very words of Jesus without having even read them, and then posting one falsehood after another

Look, all you who kindle a fire,
Who encircle yourselves with sparks:
Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled
Isiaah 50:11

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Wil, I seem to do that to people in life as well. My wife loves me though. It must be my black and white view of life. God seems to give the Message to those that need it most, those that need to change, I have changed a lot, so boy I must have been very irritating in my younger years, overly self assured!

I note that people are not able to handle what Baha'u'llah has offered about their own Faith, to be fair, is this a large part of the issue, is this the main part of the irirritation? I know it is for Thomas and RJM

I am of the opinion that one should not always offer the sweet smelling roses. How often I have seen people attracted by the roses, but when they grab the stem of faith, are unable to stand the thorns that are also attached to the rose, so I warn of the thorns when handing the rose. Maybe that is unwise, but I have embraced the urgency of this age, maybe I should just let it all go, as in reality I am unable to stop any of the events that will change this world.

Your comments suggest that I that need to change, I am aware of my shortcomings. So I put it to you, if you were to find that Baha'u'llah is indeed as claimed and that it is God's Word that is behind all that I post, how would you offer it? Keeping in mind, people struggle with change, especially if it is a challenge to long held beliefs.

Regards Tony

I had a similar experience as @wil; at distance, without knowing very much about Baha'ullah's teachings, I thought that he tried to bring the religions together, but I learnt that he rather covered previous revelation with his own stuff.
Nonetheless, I have a good impression of you as a person; you are very polite and peaceful even if you are answering less polite posts. That's what I appreciate.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

It is mentioned in the Quran 17:1

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

But I suppose there's nothing to say it could not have been a dream

You have found it in the Quran before me.
Both, the Quran and Hadith need to be understood, and understanding is based on interpretation. What I said is my own interpretation. Others may interpret it differently.

 

[Thomas]

Well! A lot has happened ... a lot to catch up on ... I will endeavour to be brief.

@Tony Bristow-Stagg – you claim the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity does not work – indeed you say you have 'indisputable evidence' to that fact (#24).

I asked you to show me how it doesn't make sense.

As you know, I also see Muhammad as an Annointed One, sharing with Jesus the same Station given of God, One in the Holy Spirit, with Abraham and Moses, to name a few.

Well we – the People of the Book – see that as a common fallacy and categorical error – but I'll not labour the point.

Thus the Quran, is also the "Word of God" and Muhammad God's Messenger and Muhammad offered.

But that doesn't say the doctrine doesn't make sense.

So you haven't really addressed the question.

 

[Thomas]

That is a big question Thomas. Personally I have never contemplated such a question in that context.

OK. It has a relevance with regard top eso/exoteric understanding ...

Most likely as in this world nature itself reflects the individuality of all things, which will reflect the essence of the Holy Spirit.

That's why I suggest a true 'unity' is reflected in the manifold diverse forms under the banner of the same formless principle – all is One, at the level of the One – but at the level of the world there is diversity and distinction.

I have a problem with the Baha'i requirement of 'unity' at the level of the world because it does not allow diversity of belief – it tends to suprematism and totalitarianism and conflict.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas I can confim that "all messengers are from the One, and listening to them is responding to the Call of God".

LOL.

I would also humbly offer that the Baha'i do not take it upon themselves to belittle any Faith.

You belittle mine ...

Thus there can be absolutely no assumption that any Messenger is superior to all others ...

Your definition of 'Messenger' is inconsistent and lacks coherence ... it's not how the Abrahamics see it, and if lacks metaphysical rigiour ... so I see no reason to embrace it.

 

[Thomas]

Thomas do we understand anything without a given frame of reference?

I have an issue with your 'frame of reference'.

It is clear to me that often you do not understand the text in the first place – this you made plain when you said you had 'indisputable evidence' to dismiss the doctrine of the Trinity. Such a claim is pure nonsense. It displays arrogance, ignorance and prejudice.

Your method was simply to0 add up the pro and the contra, and the larger number wins. This takes no account of the context of the text, or allow for any alternative insight ... it falls foul of logical fallacies, False Dilemma for one.

To understand something one must first at least try to understand a text from its own point of reference, and the subsequent doctrine in context. This is exegesis (Gk: ‘to lead out of’), the interpreter is led to a conclusion by following the text.

Yours is eisegesis (Gk: 'to lead into’), the interpreter reads his own ideas onto the text.

Exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text.

When reading the New Testament and accepting it as ones given frame of reference, does that not allow one to read the Tanakh in a different light?

Yes it does, but not at the expense of the exegetical meaning of the Tanakh – that's the difference.

The Baha'i Faith is not the Last Messenger,

Then, despite Baha'i claims to the contrary, the Baha'u'llah is not the Second Coming, did not inaugurate the Parousia, nor does it meet any of the signs that will announce the Biblical Apocalypse – because they are the Last, the Omega ...

(By the same token, he is not, as Baha'i claim, the Maitreya.)