I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

[moralorel]

There are plenty of verses that teach that it is only our physical bodies that die, and the soul lives on.
Believers should have hope in "going to heaven", and we ask G-d to have mercy upon us.

Why? Why should believers believe that they go to heaven when no scripture says so? I'm not debating against the belief that physical bodies will become spiritual. I'm just saying that nowhere does it say that people go to heaven after death. Not sure there would be a need for heaven if God were living amongst His people on Earth.

 

[walter]

Why? Why should believers believe that they go to heaven when no scripture says so? I'm not debating against the belief that physical bodies will become spiritual. I'm just saying that nowhere does it say that people go to heaven after death. Not sure there would be a need for heaven if God were living amongst His people on Earth.

Tomorrow please, I have the wrong scriptures now.

 

[moralorel]

You bring up an interesting facet of discussion.
In Revelation 14:3,4, it speaks of the 144,000 as being “bought from” the Earth / among mankind. So just to reason on it, where would they be if they are “from” the Earth & mankind?

In Revelation 5:9,10, it mentions some who were “bought”, and their assignment as kings & priests with Jesus. Earlier in the chapter, it refers to Jesus as being next to God’s throne in Heaven.

And in Revelation 14:1 you see that Jesus has left heaven and is at the Mount of Olives. He has left heaven to be with His people. The 144,000 were already on Earth. Jesus is no longer in heaven at this point. Which is why it must be lonely in heaven without Jesus there.

And Revelation 21 describes the New Jerusalem and the Messiah living amongst His people. So he promises to live with His people on Earth. Not in heaven.

 

[moralorel]

Tomorrow please, I have the wrong scriptures now.

My question is for muhammad_isa. But if you come up with scriptures that say the dead go to heaven, be my guest.

 

[moralorel]

I have to ask. How do JW figure the 144,000 are JW? Revelation 7 clearly says who they are
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

I have a personal issue with replacement theology. We benefit from the Abrahamic covenant but never should we presume to replace it. Do you realize that Jews are the only people that can trace their lineage that far back to the time of Jacob?? I can only go back to some Scottish Chieftain a couple hundred years back using ancestry.com

it truly is ridiculous how dumb and arrogant we are. Gods covenants are eternal or He would be a liar and we all know He cannot lie.

I wish I could find the article about the Windsor family. I once read a book where Queen Elizabeth had claimed that her family came from the tribe of Joseph. I know I don't own it, but I do remember that one of her family members was criticized for the claim. But it had nothing to do with the validity of the claim. It was an interesting read. But I don't even recall the name of the book.

 

[walter]

Nope. Just wanted verses that say that the dead go to heaven. Maybe some day. But thanks for trying and being so polite.

I hope these scriptures provide some information.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
--Matthew 7:21

and that he was buried, and that three days afterwards he arose from the grave just as the prophets foretold. --1 Cor. 15:4 The Living Bible

After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death. 7 After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. --1 Cor. 15:6-7

Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you,
--1 Peter 1:3-4

But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you. --Romans 8:11 KJ21

If, however, you were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
--Colossians 3:1

But our citizenship exists in the heaven, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself. --Philippians 3:20, 21

Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, --Ephesians 2:6

For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus.15 For this is what we tell you by Yahweh's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. --1 Thessalonians 4:14-16

So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. --1 Corinthians 15:42-44

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Not sure there would be a need for heaven if God were living amongst His people on Earth.

..I assume you mean Jesus..
..but G-d (the Father) took him away from this Earth .. to be sent back as the Messiah at an
appointed time.

..but people will still physically die, and be resurrected to face the day of reckoning.
It is not so much about "a need", as about the nature of our spiritual souls (innermost beings)
which belong to G-d.
G-d is immortal .. He has no physical body .. He is of infinite nature. "He" is used as a pronoun that
denotes respect, and not gender or person.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And Revelation 21 describes the New Jerusalem and the Messiah living amongst His people. So he promises to live with His people on Earth. Not in heaven.

Book of Revelation is notoriously difficult to interpret.
People believe all kinds of things about it. A literal reading is troublesome.
Suffice to say, that there is confusion about the day of reckoning, and the prophecied
1000 year reign on Earth, when satan will be "chained in a pit".
They are 2 different things.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, will return and fulfill the prophecies .. but the "1000 year global reign" will
come to an end .. and subsequent generations will become complacent .. just like any civilisation here
on Earth, that rises and falls. Human nature, is human nature.

The day of reckoning is when we will ALL be resurrected, and our deeds laid bare.

 

[Thomas]

.. every single one of us .. to a new 'body', much like the one we know now, but without the inconveniences.

Ah, heck! And here's me having just redecorated the bathroom!

 

[Thomas]

Why not use only scriptures, to build a solid foundation of truth, a truth based only on the Bible? And let the scripture speak for itself?

Because when we read ... we interpret, there's no way round it ... Scripture is a like a bottomless well, or a spring always flowing fresh, and we hope that the Spirit guides us in our readings, but we should never assume Scripture is self-explanatory – most people have trouble with simple instruction manuals! How many read and contemplate poetry?

Asking Scripture to explain Itself is like asking God to show Himself, it's for us to seek out, not for it to display itself to the profane gaze.

Acts 8:30-31 "And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?"
Scripture does not speak for itself in the sense that everyone derives something from it, and some read some very bad things into it – they've used Scripture to validate their most heinous crimes ... Antiquity took it as given that sacred texts need commentary.

And let each scripture explain the interpretation, instead of including a person's personal viewpoint? let the Bible mold our viewpoint?

Because we too easily assume that our viewpoint is what the Bible molded.

Think about it, if we read a scripture and the context that surrounds it, and someone says, oh that's just an interpretation, why bother to use any scriptures in the Bible, I respectfully disagree with the interpretation thing. --2 Timothy 3:16-17, John 17:17

OK – so your interpretation differs ...

I'm not arguing with you. We all get something from the text, and sometimes what we get is just what we need, but someone else could read that text and it says nothing to them. They're not at fault, it's just their need is different.

One of my (light-hearted) favourite texts:
John 13:21 "and (Jesus) said: Amen, amen I say to you, one of you shall betray me. The disciples therefore looked one upon another, doubting of whom he spoke. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, and said to him: Who is it of whom he speaketh? He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him: Lord, who is it?"
Why? Because it shows something ... that being a disciple of Jesus was, I am in no doubt, a bloomin' nightmare! You never knew what he was gonna do, or what He was gonna say. And when He said this, Peter says to John 'Ask him who?' and John says, 'You ask him' and Peter huffs. 'No, you ask him!' – this didn't happen, of course, but the spirit of it is there, Peter asks John because if He's gonna tell anyone, it'll be John ... I just love the humanity of it.

Same when Jesus asks Pater to 'feed my sheep' – Peter would hate that! I don't think Peter has much patience for 'little people', and Jesus knows it ... before he met Jesus, Peter solved problems with his fists. I am probably wrong, but reading like that bring Scripture to life for me ...

If the Bible is not trustworthy, then what's trustworthy, a person's interpretation? a person's feelings or opinion? Or when he says oh that doesn't mean that?

Oh, the Bible's trustworthy – on matters of faith and morals – I don't believe it's inerrant, and the Jews never believed their Scriptures were inerrant, it's a modern myth. It's we who are fallible.

 

[walter]

Because when we read ... we interpret, there's no way round it ... Scripture is a like a bottomless well, or a spring always flowing fresh, and we hope that the Spirit guides us in our readings, but we should never assume Scripture is self-explanatory – most people have trouble with simple instruction manuals! How many read and contemplate poetry?

Asking Scripture to explain Itself is like asking God to show Himself, it's for us to seek out, not for it to display itself to the profane gaze.

Acts 8:30-31 "And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?"
Scripture does not speak for itself in the sense that everyone derives something from it, and some read some very bad things into it – they've used Scripture to validate their most heinous crimes ... Antiquity took it as given that sacred texts need commentary.


Because we too easily assume that our viewpoint is what the Bible molded.


OK – so your interpretation differs ...

I'm not arguing with you. We all get something from the text, and sometimes what we get is just what we need, but someone else could read that text and it says nothing to them. They're not at fault, it's just their need is different.

One of my (light-hearted) favourite texts:
John 13:21 "and (Jesus) said: Amen, amen I say to you, one of you shall betray me. The disciples therefore looked one upon another, doubting of whom he spoke. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, and said to him: Who is it of whom he speaketh? He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him: Lord, who is it?"
Why? Because it shows something ... that being a disciple of Jesus was, I am in no doubt, a bloomin' nightmare! You never knew what he was gonna do, or what He was gonna say. And when He said this, Peter says to John 'Ask him who?' and John says, 'You ask him' and Peter huffs. 'No, you ask him!' – this didn't happen, of course, but the spirit of it is there, Peter asks John because if He's gonna tell anyone, it'll be John ... I just love the humanity of it.

Same when Jesus asks Pater to 'feed my sheep' – Peter would hate that! I don't think Peter has much patience for 'little people', and Jesus knows it ... before he met Jesus, Peter solved problems with his fists. I am probably wrong, but reading like that bring Scripture to life for me ...


Oh, the Bible's trustworthy – on matters of faith and morals – I don't believe it's inerrant, and the Jews never believed their Scriptures were inerrant, it's a modern myth. It's we who are fallible.

I get what you're saying, I agree with you on some points.

We all get something from the text, and sometimes what we get is just what we need, but someone else could read that text and it says nothing to them. They're not at fault, it's just their need is different.

For me this is what I get from the text, I read the four Gospels, myself I feel I should take as much of Jesus words and put it into practice.

Like you said, just what we need. everyone finds what they need, for me I need to listen to what Jesus says as much as possible.

It sounds like everybody's got a different way of thinking, I respect another person's view, mine is just one of many.

 

[walter]

Why? Why should believers believe that they go to heaven when no scripture says so? I'm not debating against the belief that physical bodies will become spiritual. I'm just saying that nowhere does it say that people go to heaven after death. Not sure there would be a need for heaven if God were living amongst His people on Earth.

The scriptures I posted, explain Jesus and others die, are raised up or resurrected from death, and there citizenship is in heaven.

Whatever your view is, I am sure you have good reasons to believe the way you do, I extend my kindness to you - I respect your choices very much, and enjoy our conversations. I think we are all looking for the same thing, a good place in our thinking.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I have never found a scripture that said we go to heaven when we die. It is kind of odd that we would go to heaven when God is headed to Jerusalem.

All canonic scriptures, Jewish, Christian and Islamic, do not give any information on the time between physical death and the final resurrection.
Where did you take the saying from "God is headed to Jerusalem"?. (It must be Jewish, of course). Our tradition says that God is everywhere, not in a precise place, neither Jerusalem nor Mekka.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Faithfulservant is there an article I could read somewhere that shows some Jewish people spoke Aramaic? I just like to read up on everything I can that's related to the Bible and the people that respect the Bible.​

I think in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the early writings of Moses we're actually in Aramaic too?

I suppose that the Galileans spoke a dialect that was not used as a written language, and they would preferably write in Hebrew. Most of the documents from Qumran are written in Hebrew, also those that were contemporary writings.

The Romans in the same time didn't speak Latin, either, which can be deducted from the similarities between the modern Roman languages.

The reference for written Hebrew is the Torah. Moses and David (500 years later) certainly spoke Hebrew similar to the language of the Torah, The spoken language in the 2nd Temple period was probably also based on Hebrew, not Aramaic. Most inhabitants of Judea stayed there in the time of the Babylonian captivity, and those who returned all wrote in Hebrew, eager not to use the language of the the Babylonians!

 

[walter]

I suppose that the Galileans spoke a dialect that was not used as a written language, and they would preferably write in Hebrew. Most of the documents from Qumran are written in Hebrew, also those that were contemporary writings.

The Romans in the same time didn't speak Latin, either, which can be deducted from the similarities between the modern Roman languages.

The reference for written Hebrew is the Torah. Moses and David (500 years later) certainly spoke Hebrew similar to the language of the Torah, The spoken language in the 2nd Temple period was probably also based on Hebrew, not Aramaic. Most inhabitants of Judea stayed there in the time of the Babylonian captivity, and those who returned all wrote in Hebrew, eager not to use the language of the the Babylonians!

Either way I think the Jewish people have never left the Hebrew language, and isn't Aramaic really close to the Hebrew language anyway?
It seems there is writings about Jesus and God's kingdom in every language, in the first three centuries. Except English.

 

[moralorel]

All canonic scriptures, Jewish, Christian and Islamic, do not give any information on the time between physical death and the final resurrection.
Where did you take the saying from "God is headed to Jerusalem"?. (It must be Jewish, of course). Our tradition says that God is everywhere, not in a precise place, neither Jerusalem nor Mekka.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth had disappeared, and there was no sea anymore. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem,[a] coming down out of heaven from God. It was prepared like a bride dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Now God’s presence is with people, and he will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them and will be their God

 

[moralorel]

But our citizenship exists in the heaven, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself. --Philippians 3:20, 21

Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, --Ephesians 2:6

1. I'm not arguing against a spiritual resurrection. So let's get that clear.

2. The above verses were the only ones that seemed to address heaven. But the first one is simply speaking of how God's people are foreigners on Earth. It doesn't say that they go to heaven after death. Ephesians 2:6 is the closest verse I can think of to saying that God's people go to heaven after death. But it doesn't actually say that. Ephesians 2 is all about spiritual circumcision and baptism. Nowhere does it say that you have died and gone to heaven. Similar to Philippians, it is saying that when you are baptised you no longer are of a physical mind, rather a spiritual mind. If you accepted your baptism and take it seriously, then you are one with Christ who IS in heaven.

 

[moralorel]

..I assume you mean Jesus..
..but G-d (the Father) took him away from this Earth .. to be sent back as the Messiah at an
appointed time.

..but people will still physically die, and be resurrected to face the day of reckoning.
It is not so much about "a need", as about the nature of our spiritual souls (innermost beings)
which belong to G-d.
G-d is immortal .. He has no physical body .. He is of infinite nature. "He" is used as a pronoun that
denotes respect, and not gender or person.

Revelation 21 says God, not the Messiah.

Jesus returns before God does.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The events of Revelation 21 are after these events. The resurrections and judgment are over by then.

So they will both be in Jerusalem. Or at least that is what the Bible says.

 

[moralorel]

Book of Revelation is notoriously difficult to interpret.
People believe all kinds of things about it. A literal reading is troublesome.
Suffice to say, that there is confusion about the day of reckoning, and the prophecied
1000 year reign on Earth, when satan will be "chained in a pit".
They are 2 different things.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, will return and fulfill the prophecies .. but the "1000 year global reign" will
come to an end .. and subsequent generations will become complacent .. just like any civilisation here
on Earth, that rises and falls. Human nature, is human nature.

The day of reckoning is when we will ALL be resurrected, and our deeds laid bare.

Revelations is an interesting read for sure, but it literally says that God will dwell with His people.

The 100 years, 1000 years, day of reckoning, etc. can be a new thread. I'm just saying that the Bible does NOT say that people die and go straight to heaven or hell. If you want to start a thread about the other subjects, I'd love to participate. Not because I'm an expert on the matter (I'm not), but because it is very interesting.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Revelation 21 says God, not the Messiah.

Jesus returns before God does.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The events of Revelation 21 are after these events. The resurrections and judgment are over by then.

So they will both be in Jerusalem. Or at least that is what the Bible says.

No .. one can't interpret Book of Revelation in a literal manner, imo.
There are so many different opinions of what Rev. is referring to, and it is much
like interpreting a dream.

Nevertheless, it was included in the Western canon, as it promotes faith.