I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

muhammad_isa said:
I see no reason why we shouldn't be..


An 'immortal spiritual body in heaven' .. not exactly .. more like we will be resurrected once more ..
.. every single one of us .. to a new 'body', much like the one we know now, but without the
inconveniences.
Not all will automatically go to heaven .. in fact, probably only a small number.
..but eventually, a much larger number will make it.

'Heaven' is not a magic fairy land, in as much as we will still have status, but not due to money..
..no .. due to piety and deeds.
Neither is status something that cannot change .. but I've never been a candidate for "head boy" ;)


The problem with quoting Bible verses, is that we all have different interpretations for them.
What do you think about the parable of "the sheep & the goats" for example?


G-d, through His prophets and warners, has given glad tidings to those that follow a righteous path.
The converse is also true i.e. warning of suffering, due to "falling off the wagon" :(
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Why not use only scriptures, to build a solid foundation of truth, a truth based only on the Bible? And let the scripture speak for itself?

And let each scripture explain the interpretation, instead of including a person's personal viewpoint? let the Bible mold our viewpoint?

Think about it, if we read a scripture and the context that surrounds it, and someone says, oh that's just an interpretation, why bother to use any scriptures in the Bible, I respectfully disagree with the interpretation thing. --2 Timothy 3:16-17, John 17:17

I respect your belief even though it is different from mine. Don't you feel everyone is entitled to believe a certain way? I believe you have good reasons to believe the way you do, I just have different scriptures that lead me in a different direction, and I try not to interpret, I just let the scriptures collectively do the interpreting. For example if you asked me to explain how I believe on most every issue I could just quote some scriptures, and let them do all the talking, I won't have to say they mean something different, I read the scripture, and I believe each and every scripture is a valuable part of the whole truth of a subject.

If the Bible is not trustworthy, then what's trustworthy, a person's interpretation? a person's feelings or opinion? Or when he says oh that doesn't mean that?
 
walter said:
..Don't you feel everyone is entitled to believe a certain way?
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Yes .. there should be no compulsion or force for a person to adopt a belief.
It's between them and G-d.

walter said:
For example if you asked me to explain how I believe on most every issue I could just quote some scriptures, and let them do all the talking, I won't have to say they mean something different, I read the scripture, and I believe each and every scripture is a valuable part of the whole truth of a subject..
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I'm not saying that verses of Scripture have no bearing on the truth..
What I AM saying, is that one needs to be a scholar in order to interpret verses.
This is because taking verses in isolation, and reading somebody's translation/words, can lead
to misbelief. It is important to understand THE WHOLE, and then we have a better chance
of not being misled.

Remember .. they are words .. not the words of one man .. but many.
Right, they are written by men who are inspired by G-d .. and translated by men who are inspired by G-d,
but these men are human, as are we .. just reading a few verses literally of a Bible, and thinking
that G-d is guiding us is not enough .. we need more than that.

Personally, I don't follow any particular sect/creed in every detail .. I need to think for myself .. get
input from others and further references .. and then form an opinion .. which might change over time.
In other words, I do not have a closed mind, and rely on the "official line" :)

walter said:
If the Bible is not trustworthy, then what's trustworthy, a person's interpretation? a person's feelings or opinion?
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See above..
We need to look at the whole .. this means maths, science, humanities .. religions in general etc.
What I fear is G-d, and not satan .. satan tries to make us fear learning something new .. he wants
us to remain ignorant. 😐
 
muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. there should be no compulsion or force for a person to adopt a belief.
It's between them and G-d.


I'm not saying that verses of Scripture have no bearing on the truth..
What I AM saying, is that one needs to be a scholar in order to interpret verses.
This is because taking verses in isolation, and reading somebody's translation/words, can lead
to misbelief. It is important to understand THE WHOLE, and then we have a better chance
of not being misled.

Remember .. they are words .. not the words of one man .. but many.
Right, they are written by men who are inspired by G-d .. and translated by men who are inspired by G-d,
but these men are human, as are we .. just reading a few verses literally of a Bible, and thinking
that G-d is guiding us is not enough .. we need more than that.

Personally, I don't follow any particular sect/creed in every detail .. I need to think for myself .. get
input from others and further references .. and then form an opinion .. which might change over time.
In other words, I do not have a closed mind, and rely on the "official line" :)


See above..
We need to look at the whole .. this means maths, science, humanities .. religions in general etc.
What I fear is G-d, and not satan .. satan tries to make us fear learning something new .. he wants
us to remain ignorant. 😐
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What you say makes sense, but I just don't see it that way, I use one scripture to help me understand the next scripture, and then if I wanted to understand more I read another scripture, if I want to understand more yet I just keep reading more scriptures, I don't look to a different source to understand scriptures. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule for me.

You've got your system, I have mine. I am not saying yours is wrong.
 
moralorel said:
Feel free to provide verses that say we go to heaven when we die. I've never seen one. I read the Bible starting at age 5. I used to argue with ministers and priests about this matter. None could give me verses that said we go to heaven after we die.
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I have scriptures only that talk about these five points. Is there another point you wanted me to look up?

1. Christ proved resurrection from the dead is possible.
2. those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
3. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body.
4a Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection..
4b. they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.
 
Caritas said:
Sorry, here's a screenshot of a passage from the article View attachment 4320

Stauros and Xylon did not originally mean cross, as you can see with these referrences:

Strong’s Greek Dictionary:
4716. Stauros
"A stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment) Appears 28 times in the NT."

The Anchor Bible Dictionary defines "Crucifixion" as:
The act of nailing or binding a living victim or sometimes a dead person to a cross or stake (stauros or skolops) or a tree (xylon)"

The New Catholic Encyclopaedia:
"Crucifixion developed from a method of execution by which the victim was fastened to an upright stake either by impaling him on it or by tying him to it with thongs..."

Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary defines "Crucifixion" as:
"The method of torture and execution used by the Romans to put Christ to death. At a crucifixion the victim usually was nailed or tied to a wooden stake and left to die..."

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:
"Stauros denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake. On such, malefactors were nailed for execution..."

A Dictionary of the Bible, Dealing With Its Language, Literature And Contents, Including the Biblical Theology, in New Testament usage:
"[Stauros] means properly a stake…"

Hastings' Dictionary Of The Bible states:
"The Greek term rendered 'cross' in the English NT is stauros, which has a wider application than we ordinarily give to 'cross,' being used of a single stake or upright beam as well as of a cross composed of two beams."

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 1980
"The Greek word for 'cross' (stauros) means primarily an upright stake or beam, and secondarily a stake used as an instrument for punishment and execution. It is used in this latter sense in the New Testament."

The Catholic Encyclopaedia
"The cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end."

In actuality, Romans executed people with a variety of methods, probably including the cross. But the Bible is silent regarding Jesus' case.

View attachment 4323

Here's an example of a stauros at the Louvre museum:

View attachment 4324


We don't necessarily regard the cross as a pagan symbol. Decades ago, JWs did find evidence that it was adopted from pagan culture. Maybe they were right, maybe they were mistaken. But that was not the primary reason why we avoid the cross. We reject it because it can lead to idolatry.
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A couple of things I wanted to mention that I'm not sure we're already mentioned in the 17 pages of posts following 😂

The Romans took crucifixion from the Persians who practiced it in 6 th century BC the reason for it was the sheer torture of the death.

Secondly Peter asked to be crucified upside down as he felt he was not worthy of being Crucified like his Lord. . Looking at the image above how would that be possible. His feet were nailed and each of his hands in a T shape.

The reason why it was so torturous is the slow suffocation in that position.

As far as idolatry I agree that it can become so but for me I cannot forget the cross that I must lay down to follow after Him. Never to forget also what He accomplished on that cross.
 
Caritas said:
Hello,

Your post shows that Romans probably often used to execute criminals on a T-shaped pole, which I had already agreed with.
JWs don't say Romans didn't execute people this way, we say that, according to all lexicons available, the words used in the Bible means tree/pole and doesn't describe its shape. If people want to believe it was a cross they are free to, it doesn't contradict the Scriptures.

I personnaly just don't see why non-JWs are obsessded with this subject as if it were a matter of life and death to know the shape the pole Jesus died on...

As for the Alexamenos Graffito, please see:



JWs don't use a cross nor any relic in their worship, because we believe that we must worship God with spirit and truth. Early Christians did not wear or use a cross for worship either.
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As a non- JW I don't consider myself obsessed with it. It's a symbol that represents His sacrifice just as communion is a symbol commemorating His death.
 
walter said:
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."[1]
biblehub.com

Galatians 3:13 - Christ Redeemed Us

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.
biblehub.com



Deuteronomy 21:23
23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.



The meaning of this word in hebrew does not mean cross, take a look please.
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I am just wondering why you are replacing tree with pole.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I am just wondering why you are replacing tree with pole.
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I posted different examples, of the Bible using the word tree and at other times it uses the word pole, depends on which translation.

These bibles use different words cross, wood, gibbet, pole, tree, stake, beam of wood or staff, depends on which Bible translation you read.
I agree with you I am not obsessed with it. I was just replying to your post.

 
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walter said:
When Jesus was doing his ministry the Bible says there were Greek Speaking Jewish people and Hebrew Speaking Jewish people.
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They actually spoke Aramaic. Greek was used for literature. Jesus spoke Aramaic on the cross and was probably well versed in Hebrew and at least one of the disciples was fluent in Greek.

You can look this up
 
walter said:
I posted different examples, of the Bible using the word tree and at other times it uses the word pole, depends on which translation.

These bibles use different words cross, wood, gibbet, pole, tree, stake, beam of wood or staff, depends on which Bible translation you read.
I agree with you I am not obsessed with it. I was just replying to your post.

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The reason I asked is per the strongs concordance each verse used tree and you would have had to manually change it to pole. Thanks for replying 😊
 
Faithfulservant said:
They actually spoke Aramaic. Greek was used for literature. Jesus spoke Aramaic on the cross and was probably well versed in Hebrew and at least one of the disciples was fluent in Greek.

You can look this up
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If you look at the coins that were discovered from that time period, I think they found Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek as well as other languages.
 
I just looked on Google, they said this about the Dead Sea Scrolls: they are written in three different languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
 

Faithfulservant is there an article I could read somewhere that shows some Jewish people spoke Aramaic? I just like to read up on everything I can that's related to the Bible and the people that respect the Bible.​


I think in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the early writings of Moses we're actually in Aramaic too?
 
I have to ask. How do JW figure the 144,000 are JW? Revelation 7 clearly says who they are
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

I have a personal issue with replacement theology. We benefit from the Abrahamic covenant but never should we presume to replace it. Do you realize that Jews are the only people that can trace their lineage that far back to the time of Jacob?? I can only go back to some Scottish Chieftain a couple hundred years back using ancestry.com 😂

it truly is ridiculous how dumb and arrogant we are. Gods covenants are eternal or He would be a liar and we all know He cannot lie.
 
walter said:

Faithfulservant is there an article I could read somewhere that shows some Jewish people spoke Aramaic? I just like to read up on everything I can that's related to the Bible and the people that respect the Bible.​


I think in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the early writings of Moses we're actually in Aramaic too?
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Jesus spoke on the cross in Aramaic.. that was preserved by Mark. If that was not His first language don't you think He would have spoken that instead?

Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani

Abba is also Aramaic for father.. Jesus and Peter both used that term. Both were Galilean.

As far as articles Google is your friend! Be adventurous! We know He spoke Hebrew as He taught in the synagogues and He probably spoke to Pilate in Greek but being that He was Galilean His primary language was probably Aramaic.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I have to ask. How do JW figure the 144,000 are JW? Revelation 7 clearly says who they are
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

I have a personal issue with replacement theology. We benefit from the Abrahamic covenant but never should we presume to replace it. Do you realize that Jews are the only people that can trace their lineage that far back to the time of Jacob?? I can only go back to some Scottish Chieftain a couple hundred years back using ancestry.com 😂

it truly is ridiculous how dumb and arrogant we are. Gods covenants are eternal or He would be a liar and we all know He cannot lie.
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Could this not be a reference to literal, fleshly Israel? No, for Revelation 7:4-8 diverges from the usual tribal listing. (Numbers 1:17, 47) Obviously, the listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for spiritual Israel. This is balanced. There are to be exactly 144,000 members of this new nation—12,000 from each of 12 tribes. No tribe in this Israel of God is exclusively royal or priestly. The whole nation is to rule as kings, and the whole nation is to serve as priests.—Galatians 6:16; Revelation 20:4, 6.

We try to follow Jesus words closely to observe all Jesus commands. JWs don't feel they are special above others in any way.

JW's strive to "observe all the commands" Jesus commands us to teach this to all the nations, I just read the scriptures below and try to do what they say. --Matthew 28:20, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Hebrews 5:9, Jn. 14:15, Luke 8:21, Romans 1:18; 2:8, Hebrews 10:26-27, Jn. 3:36, Jn.10:27
JW's are no better off than anyone else, the special person from any faith, is the one that listens to Jesus and does what he says.
 
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walter said:
Could this not be a reference to literal, fleshly Israel? No, for Revelation 7:4-8 diverges from the usual tribal listing. (Numbers 1:17, 47) Obviously, the listing here is not for the purpose of identifying fleshly Jews by their tribes but to show a similar organizational structure for spiritual Israel. This is balanced. There are to be exactly 144,000 members of this new nation—12,000 from each of 12 tribes. No tribe in this Israel of God is exclusively royal or priestly. The whole nation is to rule as kings, and the whole nation is to serve as priests.—Galatians 6:16; Revelation 20:4, 6.

We do not believe JW's are counted worthy of any resurrection to anywhere unless they follow Jesus words, unless they observe all Jesus commands. JWs don't feel they are special above others in any way.

JW's don't feel they are getting everlasting life unless they "observe all the commands" Jesus gave us to teach to all the nations and obey.
--Matthew 28:20, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Hebrews 5:9, John 14:15, Luke 8:21, Romans 1:18; 2:8, Hebrews 10:26-27, John 3:36
JW's are no better off than anyone else.
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This answer is purposefully confusing. Is this a copy and paste? So do JW believe other than the 144000 male virgins are the sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel? I know that JW teach that that the 144000 are the only ones that go to heaven and co rule with Jesus. I want you to somehow justify that the scripture isn't anything other than literal. That somehow Jesus lied as that is His Revelation. He didn't literally mean 12000 out of each tribe male virgins sealed.

Spiritual Israel is replacement theology. There is also a dire warning at the end of this book

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Good luck!
 
Faithfulservant said:
This answer is purposefully confusing. Is this a copy and paste? So do JW believe other than the 144000 male virgins are the sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel? I know that JW teach that that the 144000 are the only ones that go to heaven and co rule with Jesus. I want you to somehow justify that the scripture isn't anything other than literal. That somehow Jesus lied as that is His Revelation. He didn't literally mean 12000 out of each tribe male virgins sealed.

Spiritual Israel is replacement theology. There is also a dire warning at the end of this book

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Good luck!
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My bottom line is this, if you read the scriptures I cited, does it really matter what religion we belong to, what we call ourselves if we do not observe all the words of Christ Jesus? Peace love and kindness to you my friend 💖 I have nothing against, and I respect your beliefs.

I think the one that is special is the one that observes Jesus words and puts them into practice! 💕
 
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walter said:
I have scriptures only that talk about these five points. Is there another point you wanted me to look up?

1. Christ proved resurrection from the dead is possible.
2. those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
3. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body.
4a Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection..
4b. they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.
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Nope. Just wanted verses that say that the dead go to heaven. Maybe some day. But thanks for trying and being so polite.
 
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