I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

This is an age-old debate, so for brevity I've trimmed the wiki account it to a few salient details:

Hello,

Your post shows that Romans probably often used to execute criminals on a T-shaped pole, which I had already agreed with.
JWs don't say Romans didn't execute people this way, we say that, according to all lexicons available, the words used in the Bible means tree/pole and doesn't describe its shape. If people want to believe it was a cross they are free to, it doesn't contradict the Scriptures.

I personnaly just don't see why non-JWs are obsessded with this subject as if it were a matter of life and death to know the shape the pole Jesus died on...

As for the Alexamenos Graffito, please see:


JWs don't use a cross nor any relic in their worship, because we believe that we must worship God with spirit and truth. Early Christians did not wear or use a cross for worship either.
 
... we say that, according to all lexicons available, the words used in the Bible means tree/pole and doesn't describe its shape...
Not strictly accurate, though. The words used are also used in reference to a T-shaped cross.

I personnaly just don't see why non-JWs are obsessded with this subject as if it were a matter of life and death to know the shape the pole Jesus died on...
The cross as symbol has a wide range of meaning – it wasn't a point of discussion until the 19th century – it's rather the case of people trying to argue the cross wasn't a cross ... oral tradition would suggest a cross, and citations like Seneca the Younger, a contemporary of St Paul, "I see crosses there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet" show the variations of the term.

As for the Alexamenos Graffito, please see:
Why is it such a big dead for JWs?

JWs don't use a cross nor any relic in their worship, because we believe that we must worship God with spirit and truth.
That doesn't preclude the use of symbols though ... or indeed physical actions that involve the whole body and not just the mind?

Do not JWs put their hands together in prayer?

Early Christians did not wear or use a cross for worship either.
We just don't know. There was a wide range of symbols in use. They did use symbols, though.

The sign of the Cross has Biblical reference in Ezekiel and Revelations; Tertullian (160-225AD) says "we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross" and later Origen (185-284AD) commenting on Ezekiel: "The shape of the letter tau presented a resemblance to the figure of the cross and this represented a prophecy of the sign that Christians make on their foreheads. For all the faithful make this sign when they undertake any activity, especially prayer or reading Holy Scripture."

So by the third century, the practice of making the sign was widespread, and probably incorporated into baptismal and liturgical actions.
 
Another point about the cross is its universality as a symbol with all that the symbol implies.

That it is a widespread symbol, with almost universal application – should alert us to the fact that something primordial and fundamental is being symbolised. Rather than merely supposing that because its use by pagans is widespread it is somehow wrong, it's rather more the case that the cross, as a symbol, is so widespread precisely because it has something important to say ...
 
Hi Caritas –

... we say that, according to all lexicons available, the words used in the Bible means tree/pole and doesn't describe its shape.
I think that's rather the point – the use of the term is general rather than specific, and to assume it must have been a stake is, lexically, an over-statement. Josephus, in his Antiquities of the Jew, uses the Greek stauros to describe a gallows, in execution by hanging with a rope.

If people want to believe it was a cross they are free to, it doesn't contradict the Scriptures.
Quite. It probably derives from oral tradition, and the most likely explanation of the means of execution.

The way I see it:
The type of execution depends on time, place and circumstance. a lot were done 'on the go', as it were, like the Assyrian habit of impaling victims outside the walls of besieged towns. In such cases, a 'quick-n-dirty' method would most likely be employed, such as a single stake, or even nailing to a tree.

State executions was a bit more orderly. They served as a reminder of what happens if you break the law, and were intended to be as public and as painful as possible. Crucifixion was the punishment of choice by the Romans, but was considered too cruel for their own citizens. Paul was beheaded, not crucified, as he was a citizen. Peter was crucified, as he was not.

The location of Golgotha is not known. Scripture says it was outside Jerusalem, which is consistent with Jewish law that prohibited executions and burials inside the city. It's also described as a hill, which has the advantage of the condemned being visible over a wider area. It was probably not a new place – there were three executions there that day. The uprights would have been permanent fixtures, rather than having to dig out and fix a pole in the ground every time.

The victims were then paraded through the streets to the place of execution. As added insult, he was required to carry a crossbeam, as both a symbol of his fate, and to increase his suffering. All four gospels record Jesus being paraded through the streets, and the Synoptics tell of how Simon the Cyrene was made to carry the croos – the crossbeam – for fear of Jesus dying on the way to Golgotha.

So the variety of meanings of the word 'stauros', a stake, a pole, a gallows, a cross, leaves the decision open ended, but the degree of incidental detail in the gospel accounts – backed up by what we know of Roman practice – sways the argument for me that it was an upright with a cross-piece.

I personnaly just don't see why non-JWs are obsessded with this subject ...
LOL, we aren't, we never were, we never questioned it! It others who made the fuss, we're just responding!

JWs don't use a cross nor any relic in their worship, because we believe that we must worship God with spirit and truth. Early Christians did not wear or use a cross for worship either.
Well we worship in spirit and truth, the use of symbols doesn't preclude that – in fact it can assist.
 
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I always thought conversion meant from another religion...

Seems to me you joined the religion.

Did you explore other religions? Or other versions of Christianity?

When you were non-religious, were you atheistic or agnostic?
 
Galatians 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."[1]



Deuteronomy 21:23
23 you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.



The meaning of this word in hebrew does not mean cross, take a look please.
 
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Hi @walter

I apologise your post was delayed because as a new member the software blocked your links. The problem has been sorted out and it won't happen again.

Welcome to the forums :)
 
"Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."
But the Strong's quote you provide doesn't say that. It doesn't say 'pole' it says 'tree'

Only the NIV Bible translates it as 'pole' all the others use 'tree'

Most trees don't look like straight poles? A cross more resembles a tree than does a straight-up stake?
 
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But the Strong's quote you provide doesn't say that. It doesn't say 'pole' it says 'tree'

Only the NIV Bible translates it as 'pole' all the others use 'tree'

Most trees don't look like straight poles? A cross more resembles a tree than does a straight-up stake?
Pole, Tree or Stake, this word used in the Old Testament does not mean cross in Hebrew, look at the Definition for it in the Hebrew Language.



Galatians 3:13 Agrees.

I feel everyone is entitled to their own beliefs until they start to feel differently because of this or that information, they hold dear.

--My Friend is Anyone and Everyone trying to Improve Their Thinking. :)
 
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Pole, Tree or Stake, this word used in the Old Testament does not mean cross in Hebrew, look at the Definition for it in the Hebrew Language.
Christ was crucified by Romans. The NT is in Greek. Crucifixion is from the Latin 'crux' for cross. So we have 'crossroads' and 'crux of the matter'

The Greek 'stauros' does not say it could not be a cross, simply that it could also mean a pole.

But considering the context of crucifixion it more likely means a cross or gallows with a crossbeam, if not an actual tree with branches?
 
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I love Jesus and his Father more than I can even express with words, does it really matter Tree or Cross? I know one thing definitely we can all agree on!

Christian Standard Bible
“I give you a new command: Love one another. Just as I have loved you, you are also to love one another. --John 13:34

If you look at a hundred Bibles, they all may be alike if you look at one verse, but if you look at every verse, most all Bibles are different, and that is probably why we have so many different religions.

Don't you think Jesus would want us to look for truth, but at the same time do it in the most loving way, or don't do it at all. And leave some issues alone for the moment, some things are better left unsaid.

There are several subjects in the Bible that can be talked about with love and agreement, I should have taken my own advice and waited for something to say that was positive and inspiring! Conversations that build us up are some of the best words ever spoken.
 
If you look at a hundred Bibles, they all may be alike if you look at one verse, but if you look at every verse, most all Bibles are different, and that is probably why we have so many different religions.
Fair enough. If it's not important, why do JW need to change the cross of 2000 years into a pole?
There are several subjects in the Bible that can be talked about with love and agreement, I should have taken my own advice and waited for something to say that was positive and inspiring! Conversations that build us up are some of the best words ever spoken.
Ok
 
Fair enough. If it's not important, why do JW need to change the cross of 2000 years into a pole?

Ok
Do JW's have anything to do with something that was written hundreds of years ago in the book of Deuteronomy? Deuteronomy 21:23




It looks like there's factual evidence that supports both ways of thinking, so this discussion could just go on forever.
 
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I have heard arguments about what Jesus was crucified on since I was a little child. My assumption is that He was executed on the standard T cross (Pen Tau?). This was from research I did in college with the guidance of an art professor of all people (her specialty was medieval art). It truly doesn't matter what He was executed upon. But did Jesus carry an entire tree on his back instead of a cross? He carried something. And I assume that "something" is what he died on. And that is what matters.
 
My assumption is that He was executed on the standard T cross (Pen Tau?).
It leaves no room for Pilate's notice above the head of Jesus?

Perhaps the issue is not around possible Roman methods of crucifixion but the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in particular?
Is there anything you noticed about Jehovah's Witnesses that impressed you in a very good or loving way? ❤️
How do you treat family members who leave the JW organisation? Say your brother left because he decided to believe in evolution -- that Genesis is metaphorical -- then had an accident. Would you visit him in hospital?

Regarding everyone who “does not remain in the teaching of the Christ,"* we read: “Do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 9-11)

We do not have spiritual or social fellowship with disfellowshipped ones. The Watchtower of September 15, 1981, page 25, stated: “A simple ‘Hello’ to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship. Would we want to take that first step with a disfellowshiped person?”

JW Org: How to Treat a Disfellowshipped Person

*aka: JW Organization

 
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Mayhaps you can provide the catholic interp of 2Johm 9-11?
Not sure. But it would begin with a proper translation and understanding of the passage in context?

Here is the JW Org translation:

Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

Here is the NKJV translation

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

I get that the letter is warning the 'elect lady' to whom it is addressed to be on guard against the false teachers going around the new Christian churches, who in the opinion of the writer are not bringing sound doctrine, and not to admit such false apostles into her home? Paul also warns to avoid false teachers.

I don't think the letter is talking about 'shunning' in the sense it is practiced by the JW?
 
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