I converted to Jehovah's Witnesses

[RabbiO]

When Jesus was doing his ministry the Bible says there were Greek Speaking Jewish people and Hebrew Speaking Jewish people.

It’s been a long while since I’ve extensively read through Christian scripture so if I accept your contention as to what Christian scripture states and if you are telling me that Christian scripture indicates that early 1st century Jews were either one or the other, then Christian scripture is wrong.

On the other hand, if you have misstated or misinterpreted what your scripture states then forget I said anything.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

I agree with you, nobody agrees on this subject, it is highly disputed. That's why I look at the 100 Bibles we have access to today, to get additional scriptural evidence.

It goes to reason that there would be a Hebrew Matthew because Jesus spoke to the Hebrew Jewish people as well as the Greek Jewish people.

I don't know it either but there's much evidence that the author of the "Gospel of Matthew" used other written and possibly oral sources as a basis to his edition. This excludes the authorship of an eye witness. The sayings Matthew wrote down as mentioned by Papias must have been something else, possibly an other important source.
There's evidence that Luke and the authors of "Matthew" and "Thomas" used written Hebrew sources because of discrepancies that can be explained by properties of (written) Hebrew.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever ...

Exodus 3:13-16

This "Name" (which is rather a denial of a name) is not the origin of the name YHWH.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

It was written in Greek. The Hebrew tetragammaton was not used in the New Testament

Nor in the LXX

 

[walter]

It’s been a long while since I’ve extensively read through Christian scripture so if I accept your contention as to what Christian scripture states and if you are telling me that Christian scripture indicates that early 1st century Jews were either one or the other, then Christian scripture is wrong.

On the other hand, if you have misstated or misinterpreted what your scripture states then forget I said anything.

Jewish people spoke Hebrew all the way back to the time of Moses.

The Septuagint is sometimes referred to as the Greek Old Testament or The Translation of the Seventy... by seventy-two Hebrew translators—six from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Biblical scholars agree that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible were translated from Biblical Hebrew into Koine Greek by Jews living in the Ptolemaic Kingdom, probably in the early or middle part of the third century BCE.[8] The remaining books were presumably translated in the 2nd century BCE.[4][9][10] Some targums translating or paraphrasing the Bible into Aramaic were also made during the Second Temple period.

ACTS 6:1 Now in those days when the disciples were increasing, the Greek-speaking Jews began complaining against the Hebrew speaking Jews,

ACTS 9:29 He was talking and disputing with the Greek speaking Jews, but these made attempts to do away with him.

This accounts for the time before and after Jesus, Jewish people understanding the Greek language.

 

[walter]

Nor in the LXX

The Dead Sea Scrolls discovered fragments of [ the LXX that has the tetragrammaton in Hebrew letters ] [ as well as Greek letters ]. check it out?

Tetragrammaton Found in Earliest Copies of the Septuagint - EliYah Ministries

Below are 2 examples of where the Tetragrammaton has been found in ancient copies of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is a 3rd to 2nd Century BCE Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. The below fragments are evidence that the Septuagint originally contained the name Yahweh. The first is an...

eliyah.com

 

[moralorel]

So if Jesus was six feet tall, the pole would need extra 3 feet underground to support it upright -- add the upstretched arms and height of body above the ground -- another 4 feet -- add another 2 feet for Pilate's notice = fifteen feet total + around nine inches thick?

Jesus carried that on his shoulders?


IMO it was a name used to distinguish the living God of Israel from Baal and other idol gods of the Canaanites and other peoples.

But now, in translation it is a term to 'describe' Almighty God, no longer exclusive to one language or people

I'm so lost as to where you're getting these numbers. Pilate's notice was 2 feet tall? You literally just put Pilate's notice on the top cross beam. I really doubt it was 2 feet tall and DEFINITELY doubt anyone cared about the aesthetics of this display of torture.

 

[RJM]

I'm so lost as to where you're getting these numbers. Pilate's notice was 2 feet tall? You literally just put Pilate's notice on the top cross beam. I really doubt it was 2 feet tall and DEFINITELY doubt anyone cared about the aesthetics of this display of torture.

The discussion is about how JW picture Christ crucified on a pole. My figures leave plenty of room for reduction. The notice was pinned above the head of Jesus.

Say the pole was 12 feet long, still nobody would be able to carry it across his shoulders in the way Christ and other crucifixion victims were made to carry the cross beam as discussed earlier in this thread.

But I'm tired of the discussion too now

Are you saying that the Jews are a "race"?
I thought that there were Jews in every continent, including people who have joined the faith.

..and don't get me started on Latin

Ok. If race was a bad choice of word, I meant a particular nation, tribe or group of people with their own language and customs and so on, as were the Jews before their dispersal

 

[walter]

I'm not trying to be irritating but, wouldn't a cross be much heavier then a single pole?

 

[RJM]

I'm not trying to be irritating but, wouldn't a cross be much heavier then a single pole?

A crucifixion victim was made to carry the cross beam of the cross, not the whole cross -- as mentioned earlier in the thread.

It could be dragged, I suppose.

But I agree with @moralorel it's becoming distasteful now

 

[walter]

I would be happy to hear any ideas anyone has, on ways I can show love for my neighbor and extend kindness to others?

Does anyone have any ideas I could try?

 

[RJM]

I would be happy to hear any ideas anyone has, on ways I can show love for my neighbor and extend kindness to others?

Does anyone have any ideas I could try?

It's good to have you here

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ok. If race was a bad choice of word, I meant a particular nation, tribe or group of people with their own language and customs and so on, as were the Jews before their dispersal.

Yes, that's what I thought you meant.

I suppose one can say the same about any "nation" really..
..which is why I brought up Latin.

..and of course, it's Arabic for Muslims.

 

[RabbiO]

I would be happy to hear any ideas anyone has, on ways I can show love for my neighbor and extend kindness to others?

Does anyone have any ideas I could try?

I probably would not lecture a rabbi about Judaism or Jews, in the present day or in the 1st century CE, if I were a non-Jew.

 

[walter]

My friend is anyone and everyone that seeks better thinking, friendship, respect or love. No matter what they believe!

Or anyone that just seeks to be a better person. One day at a time.

 

[Thomas]

The Jehovah's Witnesses say God's name is Pronounced Yahweh, Yehovah and Jehovah.

Yes, but I do believe the Hebrew reading is Yahweh, as said. 'Yehovah' or 'Jehovah' is the result of adding the vowel markers of Adoni (Lord) to the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton, by Christian scribes in the 12th century.

Jesus name is spelled the same in Spanish but Pronounced totally different.

Different thing.

Does it really matter which Pronunciation you pick?

Nope. It's only when people make an issue of it.

I quite like El Shaddai – but then 'El' and 'Yahweh' predate Abraham as Divine Names ... my favour of El Shaddai is in part because of its anonymity, and in part because of its translation in Christian context as Lord God Almighty or Christos Pantocrator.

Personally, I don't believe God has a 'personal' name as such – A tutor of mine who was knowledgeable in Hebrew and Ugaritic (and who sat on multi-denominational boards overseeing Biblical translations) – regards the Yahweh related to the Tetragrammaton, and that related to the communication to Moses in Exodus 3, when Moses asks God for His name, so he can tell Israel when they ask – to which the response is:
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (KJV translation)

"I AM" is a declaration of a state, rather than a personal name, and the tutor went on light-heartedly, that one could read it in the sense of "I AM, and ask them who they think they are?" – in other words, it's a roasting!

I am in no way putting this forward as an orthodox reading of the text.

A personal name sets one apart from other persons – it can be argued that 'Yahweh', 'El' and so on were names of deities in pre-Abrahamic polytheistic cultures in the region, so the deity would need a name or title to set apart from other deities. With monotheism, there's no need.

My PN is Thomas. My dad's PN was Thomas. My daughter's husband's name is ... Thomas, and I have a nephew named Thomas ... but I have only one (earthly) father, so when I think of my dad, it's as Dad and not Tom or Thomas or Tommy as all our Irish side knew him.

Jesus may have Pronounced one way for Arabic another for Hebrew and a different way for Greek, Aramaic and Latin.

Or maybe not ... if He did, the Gospels make no mention, nor does Paul. Nor the author of Hebrews, nor anyone.

The Christian Greek Scriptures themselves report that Jesus often referred to God’s name and made it known to others. (John 17:6, 11, 12, 26) Jesus plainly stated: “I have come in the name of my Father.” He also stressed that his works were done in his “Father’s name.” —John 5:43; 10:25.

Yep ... but the NT never says what that name is, does it? And you'd think, if Jesus was using a Personal Name of God, that it would ...

+++

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth." (Revelations 2:17)
Maybe the Name is written on the stone?

 

[RJM]

This "Name" (which is rather a denial of a name) is not the origin of the name YHWH.

Ok. Do you mean as one of the old Canaanite gods? But the 'I Am' or similar is the accepted translation?

A personal name sets one apart from other persons – it can be argued that 'Yahweh', 'El' and so on were names of deities in pre-Abrahamic polytheistic cultures in the region, so the deity would need a name or title to set apart from other deities. With monotheism, there's no need.

Bingo

 

[muhammad_isa]

A personal name sets one apart from other persons – it can be argued that 'Yahweh', 'El' and so on were names of deities in pre-Abrahamic polytheistic cultures in the region, so the deity would need a name or title to set apart from other deities. With monotheism, there's no need..

Yes, I agree with that. There is only One Creator and Maintainer of the universe in monotheism.
G-d is known by many Names, that somewhat describe His attributes.

I'm not sure whether YHWH started off as a polytheistic deity .. but perhaps, as people of old
were generally illiterate, they often reverted to polytheistic beliefs.
Thus G-d constantly sent many prophets/messengers to them, to bring them back to monotheism and truth.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Ok. Do you mean as one of the old Canaanite gods? But the 'I Am' or similar is the accepted translation?
Bingo

I didn't find any support for the thesis that יהוה is directly linked to this answer; "he will be" is יהיה, similar but not the same.
I abstain from the discussion on the Canaanite deity because I have not studied the sources but only read quotes of quotes so far.

 

[moralorel]

The discussion is about how JW picture Christ crucified on a pole. My figures leave plenty of room for reduction. The notice was pinned above the head of Jesus.

Say the pole was 12 feet long, still nobody would be able to carry it across his shoulders in the way Christ and other crucifixion victims were made to carry the cross beam as discussed earlier in this thread.

But I'm tired of the discussion too now
Ok. If race was a bad choice of word, I meant a particular nation, tribe or group of people with their own language and customs and so on, as were the Jews before their dispersal

Agreed, it is tiring. I just want to make sure, you do realize I wasn't arguing for a pole... right?