Maccabee massacre and the crucifixion/resurrection of Jesus

[otherbrother]

What role, if any, did the Maccabee slaughter play in the resurrection theme literally embodied on the cross by Jesus?

Jewish thought seemed to almost holographically go from plural/collective to singular/individual. And the pattern of resiliency is woven into creation, making it a story worth retelling. An archetype?

Those invested in living a meaningful existence might even be willing to enter the natural psychodrama of that pattern/archetype?

 

[Thomas]

None? Do you see a connection?

 

[otherbrother]

One of many persecution/resurection cycles that Israel went through. The psychological imperative was to think resilience, whether in a tribe, nation, or individual. They recognized a theme and then through faith applied it, lived it. The story helped the people.

 

[otherbrother]

Hot off the theological processing presses:
“Christian mindfulness”
Assume that mind (and Universal Mind) is “open” by our standards. This fits with your and my value of not putting God into a box (claiming to identify Him, His nature), even though I tend to be more comfortable with a qualified anthropomorphism.

Human reasoning and experiences tend to be closed/focalized. We are nailed to a reality where the trash must be taken out on trash day! It doesn’t pay to be open to other options. When a boulder is about to fall on us, it doesn’t pay to be open to anything other than getting the hell out from under its downward path. We must close out a lot, nearly all the time. A little less so when we dream. More so when awake and navigating the so-called “real” world.

Closed/Open,
Particular/Universal,
quite I Ching-like (and Yin/Yang).

Buddhism’s mindfulness would be more open. In the moment, open up the mind to be fully present. Great spiritual art/beauty, but not all that practical during a hectic reality situation.

Christian value of an intercessor between Divine (open Mind) and human (closed Mind/mind), suggests a less-open sort of mindfulness—one that allows for impressionistic Pattern recognition, processing, and utilization/application.

Patterns pay little attention to inside or out. They just are. Like formats of energy which bridges Mind and Matter Itself. The traditional “blood” of Jesus is another way of saying Jesus energy (too bad the metaphor is used in a transactional manner of “paying” for our sins and implying we owe Him one, instead of gracefully simply aligning, drawing closer, plugging into this highly spiritual energy format, often referred to as “The Way.” )

The resurrection/resilience Pattern works faithfully in either individual or collective or both. The forerunners of Christianity knew and practiced this picking up on energy formats, or Patterns.

Christ fulfilled a Pattern. Thereby amplifying it for each of us to consider using it to deal with death-like situations in our lives (individual or collective or both).

The Macabees prayed at a time when fighting might have worked better. They got massacred . Too open to God for their own good. Ironic, considering how they were known to be militant (which appears to be what caused a book about them to be excluded from the Bible). Where was their militant way when they needed it?! God appeared to “forsake” them (recall Christ’s words on the cross, “Why have You forsaken me?”).

Not to worry! An eventual resurrection of the defeated Israel will come sooner or later (probably the latter!). Based on a Pattern of resilience. Related to transformative adaptation? Creative thought that is open to sensing potentials not apparent in the bleak actual situation are put into motion by this particular Pattern. Suggests, I suppose, God’s Mind somehow shining into this opaque plain of existence. His thoughts being sensed in the material of our reality, like rocks crying out (a biblical reference).

 

[Thomas]

One of many persecution/resurection cycles that Israel went through...

I can see the revolt having an impact on Jewish Nationalism ... but I don't think that's what Christ was about ...

 

[Thomas]

Assume that mind (and Universal Mind) is “open” by our standards.

OK. I'd have to start by saying Universal Mind is a nebulous term, I would go with the Logos of God, The Second Person of the Trinity.

Christian value of an intercessor between Divine (open Mind) and human (closed Mind/mind) ...

Intercessor?

Patterns pay little attention to inside or out. They just are. Like formats of energy which bridges Mind and Matter Itself. The traditional “blood” of Jesus is another way of saying Jesus energy (too bad the metaphor is used in a transactional manner of “paying” for our sins and implying we owe Him one, instead of gracefully simply aligning, drawing closer, plugging into this highly spiritual energy format, often referred to as “The Way.” )

Well I'd say you're close, but still some way off ... your still fitting Jesus to common, generic patterns, as open as they might be.

The transaction you speak of is a common notion but, yes, it's erroneous.

As a theologian said, "Incarnation and Resurrection was never 'plan B' in the event of it all going wrong. It was Plan A from the get-ho, it was before the world was, or rather, the world exists in an eternal tension between the two, incarnation and resurrection.

The resurrection/resilience Pattern works faithfully in either individual or collective or both.

Well it works according to its archetype, which is the Son of God – without that, it's nothing.

Christ fulfilled a Pattern.

I'd say Christ transcends all patterns, all patterns, or logoi, as the Eastern Church calls them, exist as one, undifferentiated, in the Logos.

Creation is not a one-time event in the distant past. Creation is, in this very moment, as it was then. It's a dynamic continuum.

Adam fell, as it were, the moment he came into being. We all fall into being, as it were, from nothingness.

Our being and knowing is conditioned by our finitude. We have what the fathers call the gnomic will.

The natural will, in accord and union with the Logos (your Universal Mind), it does not so much think as know what is right. The gnomic will, on the other hand, the discursive will, deliberates, because it does not know, or rather, it knows what is naturally 'right', but then chooses according to its own perception of what is good for itself.

 

[juantoo3]

Christ fulfilled a Pattern.

Melchizedek (sp?)

 

[otherbrother]

I can see the revolt having an impact on Jewish Nationalism ... but I don't think that's what Christ was about ...

It wasn’t just a Jewish story. Christ was, as you suggest, focused more on being fully human, more whole, spiritual, Godly. But he experienced the human let down as a fellow Jew, then applied it to a larger collective. What the Jews agonized about and dealt with and tried to make sense of was relevant to all humans. I agree that Jesus was transcending tribalism/nationalism, but in true Hegelian form, the assault on Jewish national
peace/security/faith was also included, even as it was being generalized beyond, transcended.

 

[otherbrother]

It wasn’t just a Jewish story. Christ was, as you suggest, focused more on being fully human, more whole, spiritual, Godly. But he experienced the human let down as a fellow Jew, then applied it to a larger collective. What the Jews agonized about and dealt with and tried to make sense of was relevant to all humans. I agree that Jesus was transcending tribalism/nationalism, but in true Hegelian form, the assault on Jewish national
peace/security/faith was also included, even as it was being generalized beyond, transcended.

The transcend and include pattern is basically the same concept as Ken Wilber’s cultural growth stages as nests on nests, and as my recently shared concept of “neuro-nesting” in which one tries to consciously sense the various interactive depth levels of brain wave activity (or mental states represented by those brain wave patterns).

 

[otherbrother]

plan A and B

I guess the psychologist in me is mainly interested in plan B. Whatever the Beyond Beings or Realities did is their business. but I have to apply similar patterns to the aspect of creation in which I am participating. So plan A by itself means little, may be a pure fiction as far as any of us can tell (other than what some of us put in a scroll-turned book). Like Zen focus on the here and now, “Christian mindfulness “ would need to apply said plan A to plan B. Otherwise it’s not really God’s “work”. It’s only God’s pie in the sky play.

 

[otherbrother]

I have used the term “acting though “ to describe how symbolism can be allowed to grace a given reality situation, turning it into a kind of psychodrama in which we consciously interact. A living story.

 

[otherbrother]

Melchizedek

Was he a major figure in the Maccabean incident?

 

[otherbrother]

Jesus would probably be up for acting through with a meaningful story from his Jewish heritage. And apply it to the human situation here and now,

 

[juantoo3]

Was he a major figure in the Maccabean incident?

Your statement was "Christ fulfilled a pattern"

Hebrews 5:6 -

"As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

This was referencing Psalms 110:4, which pointed to Genesis 14:18-20

The Maccabean Incident...your words...predate Christ by well over one hundred years, and was a response to the Greco-Syrian desecration of the Temple. So I am left wondering what you mean by "Maccabean slaughter?" Are you suggesting the Maccabeans did the slaughter, and if so of whom? Or are you suggesting the Maccabeans were slaughtered, if so by default it would have been at the hands of the Syrians.

There are writings attributed to the Maccabean period, and can be found in a 1611 edition of the King James Version of the Christian Bible. These books are generally called the Intertestamental Apocrypha. I highly recommend the Letters of Aristeas and the 4th Book of Maccabees regarding this era in Jewish History.

 

[juantoo3]

The Macabees prayed at a time when fighting might have worked better. They got massacred . Too open to God for their own good. Ironic, considering how they were known to be militant (which appears to be what caused a book about them to be excluded from the Bible). Where was their militant way when they needed it?! God appeared to “forsake” them (recall Christ’s words on the cross, “Why have You forsaken me?”).

But this isn't accurate.

The Maccabees prayed (and cleansed the Temple, the Hannukah Holy Days are in remembrance of this) *AND* fought and threw off the yoke of their oppressor...Antiochus Epiphanes.

Maccabees - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A couple generations later the Romans got cozy, and by the time of Herod the Great the Romans were basically running the show in Judea. Seems historically they traded one oppressor for another, but that was after the time of the Maccabees, and well before Iesus hoi Christoi.

 

[otherbrother]

Your statement was "Christ fulfilled a pattern"

Hebrews 5:6 -

"As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."

This was referencing Psalms 110:4, which pointed to Genesis 14:18-20

The Maccabean Incident...your words...predate Christ by well over one hundred years, and was a response to the Greco-Syrian desecration of the Temple. So I am left wondering what you mean by "Maccabean slaughter?" Are you suggesting the Maccabeans did the slaughter, and if so of whom? Or are you suggesting the Maccabeans were slaughtered, if so by default it would have been at the hands of the Syrians.

There are writings attributed to the Maccabean period, and can be found in a 1611 edition of the King James Version of the Christian Bible. These books are generally called the Intertestamental Apocrypha. I highly recommend the Letters of Aristeas and the 4th Book of Maccabees regarding this era in Jewish History.

THEY were the ones who got slaughtered when they prayed. Challenged concept of faith at time and for Jews thereafter. The resolution of the cognitive dissonance was to begin believing that those who died were immortalized in heaven. Not a lot of emphasis on eternal life in Jewish religion before that historical event, or so I have been told by writers on the topic.
Thanks for responding, processing these ideas with me. And for the recommended reading.

Christ in,
Darrell

 

[otherbrother]

THEY were the ones who got slaughtered when they prayed. Challenged concept of faith at time and for Jews thereafter. The resolution of the cognitive dissonance was to begin believing that those who died were immortalized in heaven. Not a lot of emphasis on eternal life in Jewish religion before that historical event, or so I have been told by writers on the topic.
Thanks for responding, processing these ideas with me. And for the recommended reading.

Christ in,
Darrell

In terms of Christ passing on the pattern of resurrection (Israel rebounded eventually. With faith, we too can rebound from moments when it feels like God has forsaken us), He lived the unbelievable struggle as a way of sharing the archetype of spiritual heroism and steel-tempered (no longer brittle) faith that we can use in our own lives.

 

[juantoo3]

THEY were the ones who got slaughtered when they prayed. Challenged concept of faith at time and for Jews thereafter. The resolution of the cognitive dissonance was to begin believing that those who died were immortalized in heaven. Not a lot of emphasis on eternal life in Jewish religion before that historical event, or so I have been told by writers on the topic.
Thanks for responding, processing these ideas with me. And for the recommended reading.

Christ in,
Darrell

I'm not in a position to speak authoritatively. However, I am fairly certain the Hebrew Bible, or at least the books that compose it, were already established and set by the time of the Maccabees. The Septuagint Greek language Hebrew Bible was already available by this time.

After the Ten Tribes were carried away into the mists of history, and Judah went into the Babylonian captivity, it would make sense the faith of necessity had to morph to stay alive. What came of that with the (re)building of the Temple became codified and written.

Another consideration, Judaism has long had a rich and vibrant oral tradition. This seems to challenge the norm, that is, literate cultures typically lose any emphasis on oral traditions, it is pre-literate cultures that typically have a rich oral tradition (I can point to Native Americans as one example, I know there are others across Africa and Europe). Judaism has managed to retain their oral tradition in addition to creating one of the earliest written alphabets.

I would also suggest a read of the Wiki link I posted previously. The Maccabees and the manifestation of Yeshua ben Yosef are events separated by several generations. I'm not sure how one can conflate the two periods of time with any degree of scholastic honesty.

It is an apples and oranges scenario.

 

[otherbrother]

I'm not in a position to speak authoritatively. However, I am fairly certain the Hebrew Bible, or at least the books that compose it, were already established and set by the time of the Maccabees. The Septuagint Greek language Hebrew Bible was already available by this time.

After the Ten Tribes were carried away into the mists of history, and Judah went into the Babylonian captivity, it would make sense the faith of necessity had to morph to stay alive. What came of that with the (re)building of the Temple became codified and written.

Another consideration, Judaism has long had a rich and vibrant oral tradition. This seems to challenge the norm, that is, literate cultures typically lose any emphasis on oral traditions, it is pre-literate cultures that typically have a rich oral tradition (I can point to Native Americans as one example, I know there are others across Africa and Europe). Judaism has managed to retain their oral tradition in addition to creating one of the earliest written alphabets.

I would also suggest a read of the Wiki link I posted previously. The Maccabees and the manifestation of Yeshua ben Yosef are events separated by several generations. I'm not sure how one can conflate the two periods of time with any degree of scholastic honesty.

It is an apples and oranges scenario.

You’ve inspired me to get the history straight. I’m lousy with timelines. My information has been limited to John Bowker’s book Religions That Shaped the World (title by recall, might be off a bit), According to that source, the concepts of martyrdom and afterlife either emerged or grew stronger, were more emphasized, after the Maccabees got slaughtered because they took a day or so off to pray (Sabbath?).

 

[otherbrother]

I would also suggest a read of the Wiki link I posted previously. The Maccabees and the manifestation of Yeshua ben Yosef are events separated by several generations. I'm not sure how one can conflate the two periods of time with any degree of scholastic honesty.

That reminds me of the name of Issaih’s (spelling?) son. I really like that book in the Bible because of its inclusiveness that seemed to be transcending tribalism.
I don’t have a Bible nearby to check. Time to do some research.