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Christian Nationalism
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I have yet to find an issue that would make me a one issue voter. Maybe the day will come that such an issue will present itself, but that day has not come.
Would you mind if I ask you a question about your position?
Faithfulservant
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Of course. You can ask me anything
Yet it appears in all its glory... you and I have often spoke over the years of what purports to be Christianity stateside, and what Wuropeans grow up with and study (two huge generalizations there)
Over time I have come to believe, if I grew up in your shoes, and you grew up in mine, our discussions today would be similar...we would just have flipped the coin...but your side would still be more eloquently written and better researched.
moralorel
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In the verse John 18:38 Pilate said "“I find no basis for a charge against him."
John 19:4 Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.”
John 19:12 From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”
Matthew 27:
22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
RabbiO, since I first started posting here you have always been a critic. Yet your criticisms have been empty and left wanting. I have learned nothing from you. You are the first Rabbi of whom I can say such a thing.
talib-al-kalim
Well-Known Member
How could any of the companions know that?
In my eyes, it's a legend. The tribunal may have been reported because the Romans always made it in public (at least if it was an official one), but who should know what his wife told him?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
With that logic the entire NT could be a legend or a made up story. The 4 gospels are the different perspectives of 4 different authors. They don't agree 100% but we believe them all. People like me believe in the inerrancy of the Word and that it was God breathed. How difficult would it have been for someone to approach Matthew and tell him this story? I don't know... But I do believe.
I could turn this logic to the Quran.. what am I saying.. I already do.. so there we are
So if I have this right you believe the bible.is without error, you literally believe it all to be true...that revelation is not allegory or parableI could turn this logic to the Quran.. what am I saying.. I already do.. so there we are
....and expect others to allow that belief without question...yet don't allow the same leeway for followers of the Quran? You want to call them out on every jot and tittle?
If I have this correct...you also think that a fair interfaith stance?
talib-al-kalim
Well-Known Member
I prefer a differentiated approach; neither is all invented nor has everything happened as it has been told. You say, "We believe them all": there's the full range of acceptance and doubts amongst the Christian authors as well. Muslim Hadith science is quite sensible of the fact that not all that has been related by oral tradition is true. There is no way to really prove that the Quran doesn't contain fabrication, but it seems rather unlikely, essentially because there's not been much dispute on it. I know that you don't accept Muhammad (p.b.u.h) as a prophet, but that's an other topic. For the Gospel accounts which are based on (quite short) oral tradition, the question "could someone know it?" makes sense. This concerns in particular the narrative you quoted above and Mark's account on the death of John, which refers to insider knowledge that nobody among the early Christians could have.With that logic the entire NT could be a legend or a made up story. The 4 gospels are the different perspectives of 4 different authors. They don't agree 100% but we believe them all. People like me believe in the inerrancy of the Word and that it was God breathed. How difficult would it have been for someone to approach Matthew and tell him this story? I don't know... But I do believe.
I could turn this logic to the Quran.. what am I saying.. I already do.. so there we are
Faithfulservant
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Yes I believe the bible is without error. I literally believe it all to be true that revelation is all true.
I don't expect anything from anyone else... Just stating my beliefs in my Holy Scripture
I don't have to believe in the Quran just like they don't have to believe what my Bible says. Please remember that this is the Christianity sub forum and I was told that they didn't agree with what the Bible said. I simply said that's ok I don't believe what the Quran says so there we are. I would like for you to show anytime I've ever called our Muslim family jot and tittle out on their book. You won't be able to... But they don't have the same boundaries on my book... That's ok. That's good discussion. I'm not offended.
Are you offended?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
What we have in common is faith that our books are the inerrant truth. For you to believe my book is inerrant truth would cause doubt in your book. The same goes for me. If I believed your book was inerrant truth that would cause doubt on my own. So there we are.
Faithfulservant
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@talib-al-kalim my Christian bible has 66 books around 40 unique authors written in 2000 years span.
My point is that 4 people can witness an event or a series of events and perceive details differently. It doesn't make any of them wrong it actually proves the legitimacy of that series of events otherwise what would be the point of 4 different accounts. The meaning behind the event is the same. Jesus was born of a virgin He proclaimed Himself the Son of God. He allowed Himself to be a sacrifice for the sins of the world. He rose from the dead and He will return. All 4 accounts agree on those things.
Minor differences in details does not take away from the main facts.. it actually supports that they were witnessed by uniquely different people.
That Matthew knew a detail about Pilates wife maybe because at one time he was a tax collector for Rome? Does that make his testimony false? I don't question that detail because I choose to believe all of it.
My point is that 4 people can witness an event or a series of events and perceive details differently. It doesn't make any of them wrong it actually proves the legitimacy of that series of events otherwise what would be the point of 4 different accounts. The meaning behind the event is the same. Jesus was born of a virgin He proclaimed Himself the Son of God. He allowed Himself to be a sacrifice for the sins of the world. He rose from the dead and He will return. All 4 accounts agree on those things.
Minor differences in details does not take away from the main facts.. it actually supports that they were witnessed by uniquely different people.
That Matthew knew a detail about Pilates wife maybe because at one time he was a tax collector for Rome? Does that make his testimony false? I don't question that detail because I choose to believe all of it.
No absolutely not, was just trying to clarify.Are you offended?
Yes this is the Christianity forum, and just.asking the Christian I was talking to (you) if you were having issues with folks of other faiths believing their faith with the same fervor and assurance as you.
I mean I find that level of dedication amazing (in whatever faith they are). The fact that have that drive, turned all those pages, stuck thru it thick and thin... for some insight to my thinking (as if anyone wants to) is the fact that I know JWs, jesuits, Catholics, Baptist, lutherans, evangelicals, Jews, Buddhists, Baha'i, Muslims, Hindu and on and on and on that are so so sure of what they know, I am positive of what I don't know.
Faithfulservant
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I wish you wouldn't withdraw. I would like for you to ask me that question.
talib-al-kalim
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I respect your position to just take the entire Bible as a book that of truth without questioning it. That's your choice and I don't even think that it does any harm to you as long as you accept that others - not only Muslim but also Christians - have a different approach but still believe. There are people who believe as they have faith but don't judge, and there are those who know the truth and judge all others to be disbelievers. Among those, there are Christians but many more Muslim.
I chose my nickname here in Arabic "Student of the Word". I don't think to have the final knowledge and I appreciate that people here share their approach.
For you, Paul is a prophet of God's Word, for me, he is an excellent scholar. He said, there is faith, hope and love, but love is the greatest of them.
He is so right in that. Muslim authors quoted this to be a saying of Jesus. That's analytically false, but who knows... I think it is an inspired Word of God ... but is inspiration absolute? Are inspired people infaillible ?
Faithfulservant
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I don't like the word "judge" as I feel that's not the correct word for what I do. The Bible says to be doers of the word and not just hearers. It tells me to test the spirits for what is being said. It says to judge fruit of others.. Judge as not to condemn but to identify. For someone to tell me they are a believer I have to do these things because a believer to me is different than an unbeliever. Wolves in sheep's clothing is a prime example.
I don't judge unbelievers or those of different faiths because how can I judge them against a standard they don't have. That's not my job. My job is to love everyone and share the good news. Sowing the field as God reaps the harvest.
Thank you for the definition of your name. It's very beautiful.
Yes Paul is considered a disciple chosen by Jesus Christ Jesus specifically chose all 12 of the original disciples when Judas betrayed Him and committed suicide that left a position open. The others voted on a disciple, Matthias, to replace Judas but Jesus Himself did not choose him. Jesus chose Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul is considered to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. There we have our 12 Apostles personally chosen by Jesus. If you are interested please read the Book of Acts.
For me my faith is absolute. This is from years of studying and meditating on the Word. If I had questions God revealed the answers. I believe the Holy Spirit was divinely responsible for the entire Word. To question that would be to question the entire thing.
Without Judas (and crucifixion/risen stories) would we even have Christianity?
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