Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Deleted because im trying to be more mature. Offense is the bait of satan and i wont take the bait.
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Did Jesus come to save all the people of the world?
- Thread starter Yahweh kid
- Start date
Agreed, it does.
Am I an annihilationist?
At this moment in time, I'm not entirely fixed to any position – other than a strong tendency to Universalism, and a rejection of the traditional notion of hell as everlasting pain, a condition so utterly disproportionate with regard to our three score years and ten, and I cannot see any good is a condition that endures an eternal torment for no good end whatsoever, but purely punishment for its own sake.
Nor can I see an absolutely good deity coming up with such a cruel and pointless process.
To me, far better, far more merciful, would be to simply extinguish the fallen soul altogether. (I can correlate this to Gehenna, but it's a long contemplation.)
As for time in the eschaton – well we seem to assume there is 'duration', but that is very much a view from here, from a spatio-temporal. As the eschaton is governed by neither those two principles, what we we say?
@TheLightWithin – concerning purgatory.
The idea of purgatory is that of purgation/purification. It assumes an intermediate stage or state in which the soul is cleansed of sin, and is not to be confused with the punishment of the damned.
To be sure the fervid imaginations of the medievals had a field-day with their fantasies of eschatalogical punishments – pain, fire, torment, etc.
St Catherine of Genoa (fl. 1500) re-framed the idea as ultimately joyful – as curative and restorative, rather than punitive.
+++
The Orthodox patriarchates have different formulations of an intermediate state. There is Sheol and Gehenna in Judaism, al-A'raf (the upper most layer of hell) in Islam, Naraka in Hinduism, and Buddhism has any number of infernal states.
+++
For Pope-Emeritus Benedict XVI, "Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where man is forced to undergo punishment in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God, and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints".
He goes on: "'The soul', Catherine says, 'presents itself to God still bound to the desires and suffering that derive from sin and this makes it impossible for it to enjoy the beatific vision of God'.…The soul is aware of the immense love and perfect justice of God and consequently suffers for having failed to respond in a correct and perfect way to this love; and love for God itself becomes a flame, love itself cleanses it from the residue of sin."
In his encyclical Spe salvi, he refers 1 Corinthians 3:12–15:
"Now if on this foundation one erects gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire will prove what kind of work each person's is. If the work that someone has built endures, they will receive a reward; If anyone's work should be burned away, they will suffer loss, yet they shall be saved, though so as by fire."
And v16: "Do you not know that you are God's Temple and that God's Spirit dwells within you?"
Benedict is of the opinion that "the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away."
"This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation 'as through fire'. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God."
He goes on:
"It is clear that we cannot calculate the 'duration' of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming 'moment' of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning – it is the heart's time, it is the time of 'passage' to communion with God in the Body of Christ."
+++
The Orthodox say: "If souls depart from this life in faith and charity but marked with some defilements, whether unrepented minor ones or major ones repented of but without having yet borne the fruits of repentance, we believe that within reason they are purified of those faults, but not by some purifying fire and particular punishments in some place."
+++
Perhaps unlike the Orthodox (I'm not clued-up enough), the Catholic teaching holds that in the passage from this world to the next, we see ourselves objectively, in the clear light of truth, all our illusions and fancies fall away, and at this point there is a chance of repentance, a final chance to accept of deny the opening of heart to heart, as it were ... whereas from what a brief look implies, the Orthodox hold the soul is 'fixed' at the moment of death and cannot repent or recant... but again I'm not sure if that's a fixed position.
+++
From "The Book of the Messenger" (Malachi – one of the 'lesser prophets') 3:1-3
"Behold I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts. And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? and who shall stand to see him? for he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller's herb: And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice."
The idea of purgatory is that of purgation/purification. It assumes an intermediate stage or state in which the soul is cleansed of sin, and is not to be confused with the punishment of the damned.
To be sure the fervid imaginations of the medievals had a field-day with their fantasies of eschatalogical punishments – pain, fire, torment, etc.
St Catherine of Genoa (fl. 1500) re-framed the idea as ultimately joyful – as curative and restorative, rather than punitive.
+++
The Orthodox patriarchates have different formulations of an intermediate state. There is Sheol and Gehenna in Judaism, al-A'raf (the upper most layer of hell) in Islam, Naraka in Hinduism, and Buddhism has any number of infernal states.
+++
For Pope-Emeritus Benedict XVI, "Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where man is forced to undergo punishment in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God, and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints".
He goes on: "'The soul', Catherine says, 'presents itself to God still bound to the desires and suffering that derive from sin and this makes it impossible for it to enjoy the beatific vision of God'.…The soul is aware of the immense love and perfect justice of God and consequently suffers for having failed to respond in a correct and perfect way to this love; and love for God itself becomes a flame, love itself cleanses it from the residue of sin."
In his encyclical Spe salvi, he refers 1 Corinthians 3:12–15:
"Now if on this foundation one erects gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become manifest; for the Day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire will prove what kind of work each person's is. If the work that someone has built endures, they will receive a reward; If anyone's work should be burned away, they will suffer loss, yet they shall be saved, though so as by fire."
And v16: "Do you not know that you are God's Temple and that God's Spirit dwells within you?"
Benedict is of the opinion that "the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away."
"This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation 'as through fire'. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God."
He goes on:
"It is clear that we cannot calculate the 'duration' of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming 'moment' of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning – it is the heart's time, it is the time of 'passage' to communion with God in the Body of Christ."
+++
The Orthodox say: "If souls depart from this life in faith and charity but marked with some defilements, whether unrepented minor ones or major ones repented of but without having yet borne the fruits of repentance, we believe that within reason they are purified of those faults, but not by some purifying fire and particular punishments in some place."
+++
Perhaps unlike the Orthodox (I'm not clued-up enough), the Catholic teaching holds that in the passage from this world to the next, we see ourselves objectively, in the clear light of truth, all our illusions and fancies fall away, and at this point there is a chance of repentance, a final chance to accept of deny the opening of heart to heart, as it were ... whereas from what a brief look implies, the Orthodox hold the soul is 'fixed' at the moment of death and cannot repent or recant... but again I'm not sure if that's a fixed position.
+++
From "The Book of the Messenger" (Malachi – one of the 'lesser prophets') 3:1-3
"Behold I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts. And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? and who shall stand to see him? for he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller's herb: And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice."
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Hi! Ready to be poked again?
OK!Let me say that my view, and the views I echo, are neither dogmatic nor definitive, but represent a sound theological position, based on study. So I'm not saying you are wrong, or I am right, but that we hold different positions on the same principle, I think, that nothing the world can do can keep us from Christ.
And, let's face it – whether aion means my 70 years, or the age of the cosmos, it's all a bit academic ... so the outcome of this is not a deal-breaker.
So do I.
It can, that's the point, and in the KJV it is not aionios is not 'eternal' in every instance ... and this is where the challenge arises.
In the era the gospels were written, aion and aionios imply a period of time, but not necessarily eternity. Aidios is the Greek for eternity in that sense, and appears only twice.
As explained here:
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
This is all so interesting to me and im glad we are fleshing it out together. I confesd that I have in the past struggled with spiritual pride. I never assume I'm right anymore and always fall back on Paul cautioning us in Romans 14 to be convicted unto ourselves. Maybe I'm the weaker in faith in this issue and i will not call what you consider good..evil. just as you just pointed out the same for me. I appreciate your wisdom and gentleness as im studying this out and i wish everyone would be the same with each other.
Let me say that my view, and the views I echo, are neither dogmatic nor definitive, but represent a sound theological position, based on study. So I'm not saying you are wrong, or I am right, but that we hold different positions on the same principle, I think, that nothing the world can do can keep us from Christ.
And, let's face it – whether aion means my 70 years, or the age of the cosmos, it's all a bit academic ... so the outcome of this is not a deal-breaker.
So do I.
It can, that's the point, and in the KJV it is not aionios is not 'eternal' in every instance ... and this is where the challenge arises.
In the era the gospels were written, aion and aionios imply a period of time, but not necessarily eternity. Aidios is the Greek for eternity in that sense, and appears only twice.
As explained here:
I will watch the video you provided.
I look forward to meeting you in heaven and to call you brother!
TheLightWithin
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I know this was @Thomas but you are have a great theological exchange and it reminded me of something.
I remember once hearing someone reply to a similar question - someone asked an elderly devout Christian why be Christian if everybody was saved or at least if every religion was a pathway to God or something. Or they asked why worship Christ, what is the point of that, I think is what the asker said. The person who received the question, the elderly devout Christian, seemed surprised by the question and said "Because He deserves it!"
I don't know the full extent of their theology, but I got the impression they thought Christ's sacrifice on the cross was of such effect that it impacted human destiny in this world and the next whether one believed or not. And that nothing would be the same on either side if he had not suffered and died on the cross. I wish I could have asked that person some questions but I did not have the opportunity. (I'm pretty sure it was at the church near where I lived growing up, and it was out of town visitors who were honored guests because they used to live there and be active in the church) so I didn't really know them and never saw them again.
I'm a little confused about the portion where you say Thomas would have "blood on his hands" if he were wrong. What blood? The part where you say there is something he cannot be 100% sure of -- isn't that always true of anybody's thoughts anything in the world beyond? After all there are so many things in this world (this planet, what is in it, and beyond the planet which is physical existence but beyond our physical world) that we cannot be 100% sure of or don't even know anything about yet.
How much more the world beyond?
Just some thoughts.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I like the story you shared because that is how I feel. Because He deserves it. Im always bothered when His sacrifice is trivialized to the point that it doesnt matter in the end of things. It is the most important part of my faith. That was my initial response to Thomas's declaration. I now understand him better but it has not changed my feeling on the topic thus far
What i mean about the blood being on his hands is biblical
In the Bible, there are multiple references to blood on hands, including in Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah: this is the one im speaking of
Ezekiel 3:18, which says: "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.".
Theres a difference between truth and fact. Thomas even said himself that he doesnt say im wrong or that he is right. He has just reasoned it out for himself and thats what makes sense to him based on what he believes. So neither one if us can be assurred we are 100% right. I guess i just err on the side of caution?
I used to believe that all paths led to God because the loving God that i thought i knew could never send soneone to hell for eternity. I would speak this to people. Oh boy did i have a strong conviction against this as i studied my bible more. God is loving yes most assuredly but He is also Just. Unrepented Sin leads to death. Thats all over scripture. I cant forget that. I had to repent for saying this to people. Ohh you can stay in your sin and you will eventually find God. No ma'am. Jesus died for these people and not telling them the consequences of dying in their sin is a greater sin on me.
I hope this answered your question.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
God makes some hard of heart and blind to see his glory.Many are not open to the Gospel, could it be that they are not part of the chosen(elect) ones?
TheLightWithin
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I agree with the objection: That God being loving and God sending anybody to eternal conscious torment are two ideas that do not compute. That state of affairs would make God ungood and unloving, unmerciful and unjust.
In this world, we abhor genocides and torture and any number of ghastly things done deliberately by humans to others, mans inhumanity to man, even appeal to God to fight such things.
To think the earthly evildoers may claim to be doing what God would do is appalling.
The wages of sin = death.
In regards to that elderly couple at the church I referred to (I remember it was a couple who were visiting but I forgot which one of them answered the question) I don't know if anybody at the church said anything quite like whether all paths led to God, or not, probably not, only that they were speaking about their work as missionaries and they were talking about their encounters with other faiths. I think someone might have said something contemptuous about other faiths or dismissive, and they or one of them gently corrected that, and then someone asked why bother to worship Christ if it wasn't the only way to heaven or the only way out of hell or something, and they were surprised and said "because he deserves it" and something else that made it seem like a different way of looking at it, like regardless of what people personally believed, or what religion they followed, Christ had saved and changed the world in a way that benefited everyone. I don't know if they were trying to make a case for universalism either or any radical theology as nobody seemed to think they were. I think they may have been trying to get people considering missionary work to have the right mindset and consider culture and nuance or something.
This reminds me of what I though theology was before I started studying it, and reminds me of something we talked about on I/O last year - the thought about creating a thread for "head canon" I will have to ask @Thomas where the best place would be to start a thread about "personal head canon" i.e ideas you used to have or what you thought things meant before you learned more. When I was a kid in the 70s and had to piece together theology from various sources, I thought Jesus literally prevented the world from ending in his day and was going to return soon to prevent nuclear war. What the elder missionary said at the church felt to me like they were confirming that, but I don't think it's likely that is quite what they were saying. Based on what I now know about theology it seems unlikely.
moralorel
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According to the Bible, two people won't make it to salvation. Not sure if they are the only ones. Unless somehow they get salvation while hanging out with Satan. Don't think the Beast and False Prophet are reaching salvation.
Revelation 20:10
This is a complecated question.
I like to see, that we all ask the same questions.
But I learned that it is also a wicked spirit not to believe in God.
Both aspects are in people good and wicket.
God shows us he is above it.
We need to learn nothing.
We simply ask God.
For example. You like to act good in a relationship. You can ask God to help and support you and then he will.
Praying is not a one-time do thing.
Christians call it a relationship with God whitch is accurate.
It is wicket to doubt God. But this wicked thing most be overcome.
Ask God to take this wicket thing out of you.
Doubting God is wicket.
Because you say there are no equal rights.
God is rightious.
A generation curse exists.
But not in a way we understand it.
Think about if you seek an excuse not to want to belief in God.
God never blamed me and I am everything but perfect.
But God is my inspiration to be as perfect as God as how a little child looks up to his big great daddy. To see that on his face is grandious.
I like to see, that we all ask the same questions.
But I learned that it is also a wicked spirit not to believe in God.
Both aspects are in people good and wicket.
God shows us he is above it.
We need to learn nothing.
We simply ask God.
For example. You like to act good in a relationship. You can ask God to help and support you and then he will.
Praying is not a one-time do thing.
Christians call it a relationship with God whitch is accurate.
It is wicket to doubt God. But this wicked thing most be overcome.
Ask God to take this wicket thing out of you.
Doubting God is wicket.
Because you say there are no equal rights.
God is rightious.
A generation curse exists.
But not in a way we understand it.
Think about if you seek an excuse not to want to belief in God.
God never blamed me and I am everything but perfect.
But God is my inspiration to be as perfect as God as how a little child looks up to his big great daddy. To see that on his face is grandious.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
@Thomas i have another poke for you. This is a little different take on our previous discussion. I was listening to a teaching on rewards and i wanted to ask your view on salvation vs rewards. Do you believe that there will be different levels of rewards depending on how one lived their life for the Lord? If everyone will eventually achieve salvation i can almost understand your view. I had asked you what the point of it all was..
Well, we're talking about the eschaton here ...
This is an excerpt, a fragment, that was found of the writings of Papias, dated around 95-110AD
As the presbyters say, then (in the eschaton) those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city (the New Jerusalem); for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him.
But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, "In my Father's house are many mansions:" John 14:2 for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father (possibly cf Matthew 20:23), according as each one is or shall be worthy.
And this is the couch Matthew 22:10 in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:25-26
For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. "But when He says all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
That's the best I can offer, at the moment.
I do recall reading more, and the point was that although each shall receive accordingly, some 100, some 60, some 40, and so on, nevertheless all will enjoy the Beatific Vision, and to each and every one, their experience will be 100%, there being no taint of sin left in them to obscure their vision of the Lord – as the Johannine scribe says, "Beloved ones, now we are children of God, and what we shall be has not yet become apparent. We know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
We shall see Him "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24).
This is an excerpt, a fragment, that was found of the writings of Papias, dated around 95-110AD
As the presbyters say, then (in the eschaton) those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city (the New Jerusalem); for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him.
But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, "In my Father's house are many mansions:" John 14:2 for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father (possibly cf Matthew 20:23), according as each one is or shall be worthy.
And this is the couch Matthew 22:10 in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:25-26
For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. "But when He says all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
That's the best I can offer, at the moment.
I do recall reading more, and the point was that although each shall receive accordingly, some 100, some 60, some 40, and so on, nevertheless all will enjoy the Beatific Vision, and to each and every one, their experience will be 100%, there being no taint of sin left in them to obscure their vision of the Lord – as the Johannine scribe says, "Beloved ones, now we are children of God, and what we shall be has not yet become apparent. We know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
We shall see Him "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23-24).