Did Jesus come to save all the people of the world?

So Jesus, who was an "Annointed One" which is also the "Christ" and the "Messiah" of God, claims to be the same "Nature of God" and I agree 100%.

We can also see that Jesus also informed us that he was not the same essence of God. Many Bible verses can and will support this.

Yet, I also agree we can see Jesus Christ as God, knowing no one has ever seen God.

John 1:18 KJV No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I like the literal translations of this verse, as they give more clarity if what is being said, without interpretation (there are many translations that include interpretation)

Literal Standard Version
No one has ever seen God; the only begotten God who is on the bosom of the Father—He has expounded [Him].

Berean Literal Bible
No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known

Young's Literal Translation
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.

Begotten is the key here, what is begotten is the Holy Spirit, which becomes what is "Annointed" unto Jesus.

I see this is What we know of God, essence of the Holy Spirit, which is begotten of God.

That is how I see Jesus the Christ, that is my Faith in Jesus the Christ.

The path I have taken is that I also see that "Annointment", of the Holy Spirt, God has given to all His chosen Messengers in various levels of Intensity.

That is all offered in naught but Love, Regards Tony
Sweetheart! You and I have been down this particular road ad nauseum. Lets not do it again ok? I will leave off with this...

Colossians 1:15 amplified because its just so beautiful!!

He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation.
 
Sweetheart! You and I have been down this particular road ad nauseum. Lets not do it again ok? I will leave off with this...

Colossians 1:15 amplified because its just so beautiful!!

He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation.
If it is not done again and again, then Christ is not able to save all the people of this world.

But it is never forced, just offered.

All the best, much Love in Christ, Regards Tony
 
If it is not done again and again, then Christ is not able to save all the people of this world.

But it is never forced, just offered.

All the best, much Love in Christ, Regards Tony
The logical observation of my reply is, that it will never spread beyond the confinement that Christians have placed on Christ. But that confinement is not limited to Christians, as Muslims have also set up confinement of the Christ Spirit, offering that is now only available through the "Seal of the Prophets".

I would offer same observation of all Faiths outside the Abrahamic line, that also teach a confinement of the Messenger.

What drives the confinement?

I cry from the heart, Oh God, make they Oneness known. Release us from our confinement.

Regards Tony
 
The logical observation of my reply is, that it will never spread beyond the confinement that Christians have placed on Christ. But that confinement is not limited to Christians, as Muslims have also set up confinement of the Christ Spirit, offering that is now only available through the "Seal of the Prophets".
I agree with you that many Christians and Muslims think along such lines, but not all.

The danger with such creeds, is that we begin to dehumanize other human beings.
Only G-d knows what is in people's hearts, and their final destination.

After all, we don't even know what state our OWN souls will be in when we die.
We all rely on G-d's mercy.

What drives the confinement?
Almighty G-d knows what the hearts contain .. but satan is the main enemy .. divide & rule
is his weapon.

I cry from the heart, Oh God, make they Oneness known. Release us from our confinement.
Amen.
 
I have to ask whats the point then?
The point is for us to come to love and know God – or know and love God – and to live in union with Him.

There was a creation ... there was a Fall ... so then, why did not God simply scrap the whole thing, and start all over again?

He sends His Son into the world to save it, and His Son is crucified, but the Son says: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34)

We are called to love and forgive without limit ...

I respect your belief but being my brother in Christ i hope you are right.
So do I!

God bless you, too ... "God bless us every one." (Tiny Tim, in Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol")
 
We can also see that Jesus also informed us that he was not the same essence of God. Many Bible verses can and will support this.
And there are verses that declare He is God, so the task is to resolve the apparent contradiction.

The Prologue of John is clearly such a declaration.

And the verse in Colossians ...
"In him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Colossians 1:19–20)
... is a staggering statement,
one, simply because of what it says, and
two, because it's reckoned to be taken from a liturgical hymn sung by the early Christian communities – which means this, a profound Christology, had been written and was being sung by the faithful, and the author of Colossians – either Paul, a secretary or a Pauline disciple (the authorship of the letter is disputed, but the question remains unproven) – folded it into the text.

If from Paul, this is dated around the early 60s, while he was imprisoned in Rome. If not, it's latest date is put around 90AD.

+++

John 1:18 KJV No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
I like the literal translations of this verse, as they give more clarity if what is being said, without interpretation (there are many translations that include interpretation)

Begotten is the key here, what is begotten is the Holy Spirit, which becomes what is "Annointed" unto Jesus.
I think you're confusing the issue here, as no text implies what you imply.

Also, and perhaps more germain, the word 'begotten' is an interpretation, it's not a literal translation.

The Greek text reads:
ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός – ho monogenēs huios – rendered 'the only-begotten Son'

A literal translation of monogenēs is 'unique' or 'one of a kind'.

A literal reading of the text would more accurately be:
"No one has ever seen God; the one who is uniquely (God), who is in the Father's breast, that one has declared him"

From wiki:
Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".
We can see both definitions apply to the Son, the first in regards to His relation to the Father, the second as regards His own person.

Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only".

The term is notable outside normal Greek usage in two special areas: in the cosmology of Plato and in the Gospel of John. As concerns the use by Plato there is broad academic consensus, generally following the understanding of the philosopher Proclus (412–485 AD).

Some interpretations of the word "unique" attempt to preclude birth, yet the full Greek meaning is always in the context of a child (genes). A unique child is also a born child, hence the full meaning of the word "begotten" as found in John 3:16 (KJV), for example. In applying this to Christ's begottenness, He is unique (virgin birth, for example), but also still the Son of God by birth.

I see this is What we know of God, essence of the Holy Spirit, which is begotten of God.
But this is neither a literal reading nor a viable interpretation of the text – it's a distortion.

The path I have taken is that I also see that "Annointment", of the Holy Spirt, God has given to all His chosen Messengers in various levels of Intensity.
That is not disputed, as even here you clearly recognise a distinction between Jesus as Messiah and 'anointment' which also applies in a strictly human context – Jewish High Priests were annointed in office, for example, the by elders.
 
The logical observation of my reply is, that it will never spread beyond the confinement that Christians have placed on Christ.
As a Christian, and having read some comments regarding the Baha'i view of both Jesus and of humanity in general, I would strongly suggest that the opposite is the case.

Baha'i reading of Jesus reduces Him to a generic sameness – an anointed among many anointed, and anointed can have all manner of degrees – Jesus is not more nor less than a prophet, saint or sage – it also limits the meaning of 'anointed' – as, for example – with particular regard to their view of messengers.

The anointing with oil was part of the rite of consecration of priests, the High Priest, and the sacred vessels.

Prophets and kings were anointed as well, the ceremony imparting the 'Spirit of the Lord'.

Samuel anointed both Saul and David as kings.

The High Priest and the king were sometimes called "the Anointed One" (cf Leviticus 4:3-5, 4:16 and 6:20) and Psalm 132:10.

1 John says: "But you have the unction from the Holy One, and know all things" (2:20) and "And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you." (2:27).

The disciples were anointed by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Cornelius and his household were anointed by the Holy Spirit in Caeserea:
"While Peter was still uttering these words, the Spirit, the Holy One, fell upon all those listening to the discourse, and the faithful among the circumcised, as many as had accompanied Peter, were astonished, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even upon the gentiles." (Acts 10:44-345)

So those anointed are not equal – some are divine, some offer divine utterances, some officiate in liturgical ceremonies, some are kings and leaders ... and some are common folk, baptised.

+++

By regarding the messengers as manifestations who by nature are apart from common humanity – according them an inherently divine nature even when this is flatly refuted by the Abrahamic Scriptures – means what applies to a messenger does not apply to humanity in general.

So this is a limit upon the nature of Christ as traditional orthodox Christianity perceives Him, and furthermore a limit upon the nature of humanity, rendering it incapable of sharing the divine life in any other than an abstract, moral sense.
 
The point is for us to come to love and know God – or know and love God – and to live in union with Him.

There was a creation ... there was a Fall ... so then, why did not God simply scrap the whole thing, and start all over again?

He sends His Son into the world to save it, and His Son is crucified, but the Son says: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34)

We are called to love and forgive without limit ...


So do I!

God bless you, too ... "God bless us every one." (Tiny Tim, in Charles Dickens "A Christmas Carol")
So im still searching this out as we are called to do. I found this scripture

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal is used in both instances and using your reasoning could suggest that if punishment is not eternal then salvation equaling eternal life might not be either.

I love a Christams Carol btw!
 
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal is used in both instances and using your reasoning could suggest that if punishment is not eternal then salvation equaling eternal life might not be either.
Mmm .. eternal is a very long time.

..so we see that a righteous person will be saved from punishment.
..but is there any such thing as a righteous person in an absolute sense?
I think not.

Also .. does everybody go straight to "heaven" without reckoning?
Will there not be some people who go to "hell", but eventually achieve salvation?
i.e. eventually are removed from hell / purgatory

In other words, I don't see it as a binary issue .. particularly one in which people's
salvation is entirely dependent on a religious creed.
In fact, our intentions are more important than our deeds.
i.e. why we say what we say, and do what we do
 
And there are verses that declare He is God, so the task is to resolve the apparent contradiction.
Yes that is our task Thomas. Baha'u'llah also offered these same things, but explained the contradiction in detail.

So one can see the quandary faced. Which interpretation of those passage should we look to?

The passage you have quoted, the verse in Colossians ... "In him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." (Colossians 1:19–20) has an explanation that does not exclude any other Messengers from God as being seen in the same light.

Regards Tony
 
A literal reading of the text would more accurately be:
"No one has ever seen God; the one who is uniquely (God), who is in the Father's breast, that one has declared him"
Thank you for those insights of translation.

I see that translation does not change the point that has been stated in the first sentence. The remainder is our understanding of Jesus as an annointed one, or Jesus as the "Christ".

I will leave it there, I am still trying to learn the wisdom in silence, when there is so much to say! We are told to do it in deeds, which in a way is amusing, when so many people say now that they do not need deeds to fulfil their declaration of faith.

All the best.

Regards Tony
 
Baha'i reading of Jesus reduces Him to a generic sameness – an anointed among many anointed, and anointed can have all manner of degrees – Jesus is not more nor less than a prophet, saint or sage – it also limits the meaning of 'anointed' – as, for example – with particular regard to their view of messengers.
I see that is your way of seeing it Thomas.

I see it has elevated the vision to include all the Messengers in the same light as you see Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is One with God and Baha'u'llah quotes the Quran 3:83 in this concept, "Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

Regards Tony
 
Mmm .. eternal is a very long time.

..so we see that a righteous person will be saved from punishment.
..but is there any such thing as a righteous person in an absolute sense?
I think not.

Also .. does everybody go straight to "heaven" without reckoning?
Will there not be some people who go to "hell", but eventually achieve salvation?
i.e. eventually are removed from hell / purgatory

In other words, I don't see it as a binary issue .. particularly one in which people's
salvation is entirely dependent on a religious creed.
In fact, our intentions are more important than our deeds.
i.e. why we say what we say, and do what we do
None are righteous except for Jesus who was without sin. Thats what Jesus did on the cross.. He imparted us with His righteousness allowing us to approach the Father who cannot abide with sin. He is called the spotless lamb of God.. the perfect sacrifice. This was fulfilling the day of atonement that was practiced every year for the sins of Israel. It took the blood of God shed for the sins of the world past present and future. But you have to receive Him as such.. if not you are rejecting the gift of it rather than accepting it. This is why i have no understanding of universal salvation. I do not believe in purgatory. Jesus never spoke of it either did the apostles.

This does not excuse sin. We must repent of our sins. The new creation in a believer is the working of God in our life and that includes conviction of pur sins.
 
By regarding the messengers as manifestations who by nature are apart from common humanity – according them an inherently divine nature even when this is flatly refuted by the Abrahamic Scriptures – means what applies to a messenger does not apply to humanity in general.

So this is a limit upon the nature of Christ as traditional orthodox Christianity perceives Him, and furthermore a limit upon the nature of humanity, rendering it incapable of sharing the divine life in any other than an abstract, moral sense.
This has been explained Thomas and I offer that, as it is important.

First the absolute unity of the prophets as quoted from the Quran and confirmed by Baha'u'llah.

"..Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 78.

Baha'u'llah explains the twofold station, that of the Divine and that of the Human, which binds the Messengers to humanity.

"..When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God!”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!.."

We share that flesh with the Messengers, we share the suffering that were part of, we can be born again into the Spirit that is the Essence of the Messengers, the image we are made in.

In the end Thomas, I would offer we see the same things in differnt frames of references. I have chosen the path of Oneness, inclusive of Jesus Christ, which in the end has no conflict in living the life asked of us by Jesus, even if we practice those morals and virtues in a slightly different way.

Regards Tony
 
..This is why i have no understanding of universal salvation. I do not believe in purgatory. Jesus never spoke of it either did the apostles.
..so for what reason do many other Christians believe in purgatory?

The Church of England, mother church of the Anglican Communion, officially denounces what it calls "the Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory", but the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches, and elements of the Anglican, Lutheran, and Methodist traditions hold that for some there is cleansing after death and pray for the dead, knowing it to be efficacious.
- Wikipedia -

..which is what I've been saying all along about belief in specific creeds. Why should the creed that
we support be right, and all others wrong?
Almighty G-d knows best what happens to each and every soul after physical death. To think
that only "my lot" will achieve immediate, eternal salvation is too simplistic.
 
I know this thread has been about universalism. I don't know if there was ever a thread about conditional immortality/annihilationism that I could revitalize or if I should start a new thread for something like that.
 
..so for what reason do many other Christians believe in purgatory?

The Church of England, mother church of the Anglican Communion, officially denounces what it calls "the Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory", but the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches, and elements of the Anglican, Lutheran, and Methodist traditions hold that for some there is cleansing after death and pray for the dead, knowing it to be efficacious.
- Wikipedia -

..which is what I've been saying all along about belief in specific creeds. Why should the creed that
we support be right, and all others wrong?
Almighty G-d knows best what happens to each and every soul after physical death. To think
that only "my lot" will achieve immediate, eternal salvation is too simplistic.
For me it's simple. The reason i dont believe in purgatory is because it diminishes what Jesus did on the cross. To suggest that I suffer in purgatory before I go to heaven says that Jesus didnt suffer enough for me. Jesus didnt tell the thief ill see you after you suffer in purgatory.. He said today you will be with me in paradise. The story of lazarus and the rich man.. there was no purgatory. Paul said absent from the body present with the Lord not absent from the body purgatory and then present with the Lord.

Isnt there different beliefs in Islam?? I dont know why you struggle with the differences in Christianity. We are told to be convicted of ourselves. If someone believes in purgatory they are still my brothers and sisters in the faith.. we worship the Same God in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
 
..so for what reason do many other Christians believe in purgatory?
I believe it is mostly if not entirely a Catholic doctrine.
Like so many things in (what I know of) Catholic teaching, it's a combination of scriptural interpretation alongside what they call holy tradition

And here they explain their scriptural (in this case New Testament) source for their belief at 1:41

 
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