Original sin

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Will someone respond to my question about "God created man in his own image", for Pete's sake.:)
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Without the capacity to do evil, being "good" is meaningless. If you couldn't do wrong, only right, you are merely acting by your nature, and so what you are doing isn't really "right", as doing what is right requires right intention, and not right behavior. Right? ;)

The same seems true of God. If God were only acting by his nature, why worship Him? If He could never act outside of "goodness", even if He willed it so, he'd be an automaton ("Please insert prayer HERE"), AND he wouldn't be omnipotent (as there would then be something impossible for Him to do). So, it seems like God has freewill; He can do evil. BUT, the difference between Him and us is that He has no problem avoiding sin (he is all-powerful and all-knowing, after all), whereas we can barely predict the next twenty minutes.

So we are created in His image, fully equipped with capacity to do both good and evil, but unlike Him, we are not all-powerful and all-knowing, so we cannot always make the "good" decision.

I hope that all made sense...I'm really tired...:(
 
Kindest Regards, all!

Excellent points, all!

Didymus, there is a quote in Isaiah that has long made me wonder as you do-

"I (am) *J---H, and none any more except Me there is no God. I will clothe you, though not you know me, that they may know from the rising of the sun and to the sunset, that none (is) besides Me. I (am) *J---H, and none any more! Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil, I *J---H do all these things." -Isaiah 45:5-7, Interlinear, *sacred name

"I (am) the LORD, and (there is) none else, (there is) no God beside Me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that (there is) none beside Me. I (am) the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil, I the LORD do all these (things)." Isaiah 45:5-7, Companion

Lucifer was created by God just as Adam and Eve were. For reasons known only to Him, God has created and allowed evil to exist.

My guess is that God loves us, and wants us to love Him in return. As was pointed out by another here, if we were made to love Him without choice (as automatons), it would not be genuine love. We must choose to love God, and a portion of that love from our end of the deal, is to show Him by our choice to follow, our choice to observe, our choice to be obedient.

I do not know the answer, this is only my guess based on my faith and understanding. ;)

As for being made in God's image, well, I don't know. Perhaps our form (two arms, two legs, a head and body...), perhaps our will, perhaps our thought, perhaps our ability to love, or any/all or even none of these things. ;) I figure we will know in due time, if it is meant to be.
 
OOOPS! I have no idea how I deleted your post Bandit. Sorry if it causes any problem. Juantoo3
 
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didymus said:
You're right, God would never deceive the world or lie. But God did make the serpent.
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i am glad we agree on something:)

Will someone respond to my question about "God created man in his own image", for Pete's sake.:)
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i did respond on this in 2 other threads.

i dont know, God is not flesh so we cant be completely totally in his image. God cannot fail but man can.
 
Kindest Regards, Bandit!
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil,

i have always looked at this from the beginning before man when the earth was void. i think these thoughts did originate from God but i do not believe God is evil or literally creates evil, but rather he put the thought there for Lucifer & the angels to decide.
Lucifer was not made evil but God allowed him to choose the pride of exalting himself above God.

i think this was the original sin.

it gets a little tricky.
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Well, I don't think Isaiah was referring to the creation of the world in those verses (shame on me, I didn't look further to see what he was saying, to who and why). Then there is the little matter of Job. God could have easily kept evil at bay from this righteous man, but chose instead to test his faith. Likewise Abraham was tested to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. I'm sure I could think of others if I took the time. But what better way to prove someone's love? Surely in your own life, those you love have tested/tried your love for them on many occasions. Sometimes it is intentional (as I believe it always is with God), sometimes it is just humans being human. Surely there have been moments when you have caused grief for those who love you, whether you meant to or not.

When God created humanity, he did so much more than throw together a bag of flesh and bones. I find this so impressive. What we are able to experience, to learn, to perceive, to understand, is phenomenal compared to all other creatures. Evil must have its place, or God would not allow it. Just as we have been given choice, love God or not.

Tricky? Yes, I suppose that is one way to put it. Some questions are better left unanswered until the proper time, which may be never. I can live with that.
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Well, I don't think Isaiah was referring to the creation of the world in those verses (shame on me, I didn't look further to see what he was saying, to who and why). Then there is the little matter of Job. God could have easily kept evil at bay from this righteous man, but chose instead to test his faith. Likewise Abraham was tested to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. I'm sure I could think of others if I took the time. But what better way to prove someone's love? Surely in your own life, those you love have tested/tried your love for them on many occasions. Sometimes it is intentional (as I believe it always is with God), sometimes it is just humans being human. Surely there have been moments when you have caused grief for those who love you, whether you meant to or not.

When God created humanity, he did so much more than throw together a bag of flesh and bones. I find this so impressive. What we are able to experience, to learn, to perceive, to understand, is phenomenal compared to all other creatures. Evil must have its place, or God would not allow it. Just as we have been given choice, love God or not.

Tricky? Yes, I suppose that is one way to put it. Some questions are better left unanswered until the proper time, which may be never. I can live with that.
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Juantoo3, (or anyone)
tell me if you see any connection here in Genises with that verse in
Is.
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil,

Gen.1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. i dont think this light & darkness DIVIDED, was literal sun & moon light. i think this was in reference to good & evil & the speration of the angels.
we dont see literal light(s) until verse 16.

i know evil has its place. without it there would be no temptation because God does not tempt us with evil. Job is one of my favorites of the OT. I feel he suffered more than the rest, because he had everything & knew what it was to lose it all & suffer in the flesh for a very long time & he cried & cried to God, but He would not deny Him as God.

anyway i dont know what happened to the post either. no big deal I can't remember what i said anyway.:)
 
About the Isaiah quote posted by Jt3:

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things. (NIV)
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The context is the LORD telling Israel that Cyrus King of Persia will conquer Babylon and allow the Israelites to return to Jerusalem.

And another example from Isaiah:

Isaiah 54:16

"See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD ,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD .
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I agree with the above posters who said that you can't really be good unless you also have the chance to choose evil. Taking it a step further God claims our evil (by allowing it) and and folded it into His plan from the beginning. The evil of the cross, what could be worse? But this released the world from the bondage to sin. This does not mean that we can choose evil without personal consequence, or that life is all nice and happy for those who choose good. Suffering is part of the world God created and I can only believe that it is like pruning a rose bush to make it stronger and healthier. Sometimes it seems that God woos us, othertimes that He drives us into His arms.

Guess this doesn't have much to do with the question of original sin. I don't believe that we inherit sin--we create quite enough on our own. We did inherit the tendency toward sin. I was created good with the potential to choose good or evil. Being created in the image of God, to me, does not mean our physical attributes but our virtues. Perhaps even our flaws are misapplied virtuous characters. Every instrument created for good can also be put to bad use.

more ramblings frojm your friendly neighborhood,
lunamoth
 
The story of the "Fall" of Adam and Eve is a metaphor depicting the schism created in the human phsyche by judging the world as good and evil that in turn creates all of the false identities and separations that in turn are the source of human suffering.

Good v. Evil
God v. human
Human v. nature
Man v. Woman

It's all in there. Its real value is unlocked by reading as it was intended - metaphorically.

At least that's my perception.
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
The story of the "Fall" of Adam and Eve is a metaphor depicting the schism created in the human phsyche by judging the world as good and evil that in turn creates all of the false identities and separations that in turn are the source of human suffering.

Good v. Evil
God v. human
Human v. nature
Man v. Woman

It's all in there. Its real value is unlocked by reading as it was intended - metaphorically.

At least that's my perception.
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Hello, Abogado, welcome back. I've missed your voice here.

lunamoth
 
lunamoth said:
Hello, Abogado, welcome back. I've missed your voice here.

lunamoth
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Thanks. It's nice to be back. I'll never catch up on all the discussions. Looks like a lot of new faces around here, too.
 
From Carl Jung's "A Psychological Approach To the Trinity" (a must-read for anyone interested in a scholarly study of western religion in general and Christianity in particular):


"The world of the Father typifies an age which is characterized by a pristine oneness with the whole of Nature, no matter whether this oneness be beautiful or ugly or awe-inspiring. But once the question is asked: 'Whence comes the evil, why is the world so bad and imperfect, why are there diseases and other horrors, why must man suffer?' - then reflection has already begun to judge the Father by his manifest works, and straighway one is conscious of a doubt, this is itself the symtpom of a split in the original unity. One comes to the conclusion that creation is imperfect - nay more, that the Creator has not done his job properly, that the goodness and almightiness of the Father cannot be the sole principle of the cosmos. Hence the One has to be supplemented by the Other, with the result that the world of the Father is fundamentally altered and is superseded by the world of the Son."
 
Thus, "original sin" is a metaphor for the crisis of identity created by the "knowledge of good and evil."

Ironically, that includes the literal interpretation of "original sin" as a religious dogma.
 
The Orignal sin occured with Lucifer in Heaven, when he chose to make war with God in the hopes of dethorning God.
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
From Carl Jung's "A Psychological Approach To the Trinity" (a must-read for anyone interested in a scholarly study of western religion in general and Christianity in particular):


"The world of the Father typifies an age which is characterized by a pristine oneness with the whole of Nature, no matter whether this oneness be beautiful or ugly or awe-inspiring. But once the question is asked: 'Whence comes the evil, why is the world so bad and imperfect, why are there diseases and other horrors, why must man suffer?' - then reflection has already begun to judge the Father by his manifest works, and straighway one is conscious of a doubt, this is itself the symtpom of a split in the original unity. One comes to the conclusion that creation is imperfect - nay more, that the Creator has not done his job properly, that the goodness and almightiness of the Father cannot be the sole principle of the cosmos. Hence the One has to be supplemented by the Other, with the result that the world of the Father is fundamentally altered and is superseded by the world of the Son."
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not really..
 
I have no desire to read this mans writing. Just the bit you posted sounded heretical and anti-christ.
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
From Carl Jung's "A Psychological Approach To the Trinity" (a must-read for anyone interested in a scholarly study of western religion in general and Christianity in particular):
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I myself wouldnt put Carl Jung on a must read list for scholarly study of Christianity

Sigmund Freud's attitudes towards Christianity were obviously hostile, since he believed that religious doctrines are all illusions and labeled all religion as "the universal obsessional neurosis of humanity." Sigmund Freud. The Future of an Illusion, trans. and edited by James Strachey. New York: W.W. Norton and Company, Inc., 1961, p. 43. His one-time follower and colleague Carl Jung, on the other hand, may not be quite as obvious in his disdain for Christianity. While Jung did not call religion a "universal obsessional neurosis," he did view all religions, including Christianity, to be collective mythologies - not real in essence, but having a real effect on the human personality.
Dr. Thomas Szasz describes the difference between the psychoanalytic theories of the two men this way: "Thus in Jung's view religions are indispensable spiritual supports, whereas in Freud's they are illusory crutches."2While Freud argued that religions are delusionary and therefore evil, Jung contended that all religions are imaginary but good. Both positions are anti-Christian; one denies Christianity and the other mythologizes it.. Thomas Szasz. The Myth of Psychotherapy. Garden City: Doubleday/Anchor Press, 1978, p. 173.



Jung's neo-paganism and his desire to replace Christianity with his own concept of psychoanalysis can be seen in a letter he wrote to Freud:

I imagine a far finer and more comprehensive task for [psychoanalysis] than alliance with an ethical fraternity. I think we must give it time to infiltrate into people from many centers, to revivify among intellectuals a feeling for symbol and myth, ever so gently to transform Christ back into the soothsaying god of the vine, which he was, and in this way absorb those ecstatic instinctual forces of Christianity for the one purpose of making the cult and the sacred myth what they once were - a drunken feast of joy where man regained the ethos and holiness of an animal. C. G. Jung quoted by Richard Noll. The Jung Cult. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1994, p. 188







Hardly required reading for a Christian.
 
Dor said:
Hardly required reading for a Christian.
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I didn't say it was "required" reading for a Christian. I said it is a must-read for a scholarly study of western religion and Christianity. If a Christian wants to conduct such a scholarly study, in my opinion, they should read it.

If I were to limit myself to reading and examining only those materials with which I already agree, I would cease to grow. I don't do that. I know a lot of other Christians who don't either.
 
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