Christianity minus Paul

Path of One wrote: I think Paul made the right choice by following God, of course, but even if he had used his free will to rebel, Christ would have reached the gentiles. Indeed, in a way, he already was.

An interesting point, and a great declaration of faith. It reminds me that faith and belief/doctrine tend to be inversely proportional.
 
i dont know what to say & i appreciate your inputs Path, but when someone calls the people, places & events a myth or midrash, that tells me they do not believe in it.
Or at any time calls it invaluable for any purpose, I am not going to trust there interpretations. Yet I am open to there views until it contradicts the other passgaes that God has given to us.

God formed a literal man & woman from the literal dust of the earth, then put him inside of a literal graden. Wether or not He used a literal rib, is not important to me.
They walked across on literal dry ground, I believe there feet did not get wet, & so on & so forth.

I wish you the best in your studies & do continue to seek Him in spirit & in truth.
 
InLove said:
Hey, Bandit--Peace:),

I agree--all the stuff that some people do as an attempt to tear apart the Word? No, path_of_one does not do that.

I believe in examining God's Word. And I know you know that The Word is boundless and unlimited. Certainly, it cannot be confined to print, even with all our best efforts to preserve it. The Word Himself tells us so.:)

Christ Is/Was/Will Always Be with or without Paul. But He chose Paul for a specific mission, and we know that whatever the Lord orders Is/Was/Will Always Be.

InPeace,
InLove
Right & Amen InLove. Boundless, timeless & unlimited just as the Word spoke it all into existance. It is the written Word of God. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentile, but then again so was Peter.:)
 
Quahom1 said:
Islam came 500 years after Paul...and I'm not certain how the Christian Paul would affect Islam. Perhaps with no Paul, there would not be Christianity as it established itself finally in the 400s, and as a result, Islam as it is defined today would not exist...

pebble in the pond theory.

hmmm.

v/r

Q
hmmm....pebble in the pond theory....that's sort of what i was wondering. i suppose it all depends on how you see religion. if you see it as God being behind everything directly, then i suppose whatever God wants to happen will happen irrespective of exactly how it happens. on the other hand if you see religion as mans efforts to know God, then a small change somewhere could have vast impact over time. the mind boggles:confused:
there's another thread on here called what did jesus say (and what not?) where there are some quotes and references concerning this subject. i always thought paul was responsible for taking christianity to the gentiles....but maybe it wasn't quite like that.
 
Path I think I get the gist of your problem with Paul.. There are a lot of people who think that he had little disregard for women.. Some even say that he was a woman hater....

"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.

Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?"

but if you read a little ways down that scripture... he also says

"But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God."


Another thing I think Paul gave us is Gods recipe for marriage. I think its vitally important considering the rate of divorce in this day and age.. that we base our marriages on God.. God who we are to love more than anyone even our own spouse.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Path I think I get the gist of your problem with Paul.. There are a lot of people who think that he had little disregard for women.. Some even say that he was a woman hater....
I don't really think he hated women, or was even disrespectful toward them. I just think he was bound by the culture of his time in gender issues. Jesus, on the other hand, did not put women below men. I trust my own experience of God in this matter, and I feel fully competent as a soul to directly have a relationship with God and to manage my own affairs. I do think that Paul's advice was probably good for his time. In a culture in which women were viewed primarily in their capacity to support men, it would not be prudent for Christian women to foresake these roles and demand otherwise. It would be struggling against the tide, and would produce confusion and dischord in the family. On the other hand, we now are in a culture in which many people are taught equality and shared leadership- the teamwork principle- both in their personal and social lives. My opinion is that marriage requires the spouses to be honest and caring about each others' needs, and to be sure they are equally yoked in this manner.

I think its vitally important considering the rate of divorce in this day and age.. that we base our marriages on God.. God who we are to love more than anyone even our own spouse.
I agree. But I don't think this necessitates Paul's ideas about the man being the head of the family. I know in my own marriage, my husband has always said that partly why he wanted to marry me is that I am a strong, independent woman, and he wanted a partner, not anyone subservient in any way. He likes that in our marriage, there is no "head," just a democratic partnership. Disagreements are resolved through discussion and mutual compromise. It works for us. This doesn't mean that I don't serve him in any way- of course I do- but he also serves me. It is mutual submission, which Paul also wrote about (I believe correctly), but without any one leader.

Now, there are people who want a traditional type of marriage with the man as the head, and that's fine for them. Some people feel the need for a leadership heirarchy, and others don't. I will say, however, that I think either way marriage is an exceptionally difficult arrangement these days. The divorce rate among Christians is just as high as the rest of the population, and in some areas higher. I think this is partially because of expectations in all populations, which is why I think that in any marriage, if one expects one's primary strength, comfort, guidance, etc. to come from God, that takes a lot of pressure off the marriage. After all, no human can provide what God gives.
 
Would The gospel have reached the Gentiles without Pual:

Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV
Matt 24:13-14
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
NKJV
Luke 24:46-48
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
NKJV

I think God would have fullfilled his plan without Pual if he wanted to. But I think Pual is very important to scripture, as was all in the scryptures, Here are some scriptures:

WAs he inspired:
2 Peter 1:20-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
Was he perfect: I think this describes our walk the best:
Rom 7:18-23
18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn I can't make myself do right. I want to but I can't. 19 When I want to do good, I don't; and when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 Now if I am doing what I don't want to, it is plain where the trouble is: sin still has me in its evil grasp.
21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love to do God's will so far as my new nature is concerned; 23 but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war with my mind and wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. In my mind I want to be God's willing servant, but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.
So you see how it is: my new life tells me to do right, but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin. Oh, what a terrible predicament I'm in! Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature? Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free.
TLB
This is written by Pual and tell me its not true!

The bible states that men of God where like us, and of like passions, does this make the word unusefull, I dont think so, becuase what good to us would it be if it was holy written by perfect men, when we cant be perfect. But them as examples and full of wisdom given to them by God leads us to the paths of rightousness through the Spirit of God!

2 Cor 3:4-6
4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant-not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
NIV

He could have said anything and it sounded intelegent, but not being from the Spirit it would be useless, Now that It was inspired, the person reading must be of the Spirit, or The word he reads from the Spirit would be usless to him becuase he is not of the Spirit.:

John 4:24-25
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV
 
LOL did you not read the scripture I posted, of course it would have. But the question wasnt mine I just forgot to do the quote thingy. Anyways I let the Bible answer the question rather my own commentary.:D It tells it much beter than I can!
 
juantoo3, you've asked a very interesting question. One place to start in looking for the answer is the sayings gospel Q.
Scholars have reconstructed this lost gospel from Matthew's and Luke's gospels. It was probably written around the same time as Paul's letters. Some interesting things about this earliest gospel:
- It doesn't mention the miraculous birth stories of Jesus (Neither does Mark or Paul, by the way)
- It doesn't mention Jesus's death and resurrection.
- It doesn't speak of Jesus as being one with God (Neither does Paul or any of the other gospels besides John).
- On the whole, it presents Jesus as a wise teacher, a prophet even, albeit a very special one.

How would Christianity have developed from this point without Paul? Mark's gospel shows one route: Jesus takes on the role of Son of Man (from Ezekiel's prophecies in the OT) and Son of God (a title used for the Israelite king, aka the Messiah = "the anointed one"). Luke and Matthew further developed this line of thinking about Jesus by adding miraculous birth stories and post-resurrection appearances. As others have said, Paul was the one most responsible for expanding the gospel to the non-Jews. Perhaps the Jesus followers would have remained a sect within Judaism, as they were when Paul joined up. As a Jewish sect, Jesus would probably never have been considered to be equal to God - that development was only possible in the polytheistic Greek world. Eventually, the rabbis would have declared the emphasis on Jesus the prophet to be heretical, and this sect would have fallen away like the sects that emphasised Enoch/Metatron did. Today there would be no trace of Christianity.

Well, it's one possibility!
 
Paul, along with Peter, James and John, was in receipt of an authentic Christian gnosis - and one might say that Paul gave it an expression above the bounds of time and space, and a foundation in the 'here and now' of individual personal being.

It was Paul who founded the idea of Christianity not fixed in geographical place, nor the provenance of one particular people, nor simply the remembrance of a dead prophet.

That Paul has so many enemies has a number of reasons, not the least of which is not everyone can 'see' what he is saying - gnosis is, by its very nature, not immediately apparent.

Nor is it easy. Nor is it comfortable. Nor can we have it on our terms.

People enjoy the message, but they don't enjoy the medicine. St Paul's epistles are primarily medicinal. One might not enjoy his solutions, and the taste might sometimes be tart, but his reasoning is beyond fault.

+++

At certain times Christ called Peter, James and John apart from the others. The turning moments of his ministry was witnessed by these three. We have no written record of James; Peter, tradition holds, is the source of the Gospel of Mark, was primarily concerned with the sudden and unexpected irruption of the Divine into the mundane, and according to the gospel, Peter was very mundane indeed.

Christ spoke to Paul directly, and often. Certainly Paul knew, from the very outset, things which came as such a surprise to the Apsotles that they argued he was wrong, not the least being the Gospel was for the whole world, not just the Jews.

If we do away with Paul, we must likewise do away with Acts, and with the Gospel of Luke, who was Paul's disciple and companion, and which was regarded by Early Christianity as an accurate and inarguable account. Where the gospels differed, St Luke held sway.

So if we do away with Paul, and the Pauline sources, we strip away from Christianity its most profoundly mystical and mysterious elements - leaving us with the Old Testament, Matthew and John, and the Apocalypse. Well, discount Matthew, what can a despised tax collector, a collaborator with the enemy, have to offer orthodox Judaism?

So John, then.

As a mystical text the Johannine Gospel is too pure, too fragile to stand alone. It might have become a disputed text within a secret canon of a Jewish esoterism, validated by the Prologue's reference to Genesis, but little more. Its miracles would have been taught as symbol and allegory, but not a reality, the Incarnation being denied by orthodoxy. Today, if anyone had heard of Christ they would have been required to do some serious digging. Judaism is hardly likely to champion the man they crucified as a blasphemer.

Within three hundred years of Golgotha, Christianity would have vanished from the face of the earth as an effective spiritual means.

Some elements of the Johannine Gospel might have in time been assimilated into an already declining Hellenic mysticism, but if we consider the prevalance of error, especially today when people assume the right to interpret scripture as however they so desire, then its hardly likely that the least fragment of Scripture would have survived in any recognisable form. Certainly the mystical flights of Orphism, Platonism and the like were soon being undermined by the secular and empirical juggernaut of Aristoleanism.

Any trace of the man who was called 'Jesus Christ' - and the spiritual dimension - would be more of a puzzle than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Johannine Epistles, for example, with their idealistic message of 'love one another' would be translated (as the ideal was then in some areas, as it was again notably in the 60s) as 'shag anything that moves.'

And we would all, of course, be Muslim.

The 'problem' is not with St Paul (nor with the Emperor Constantine) but what happens when a 'simple' message becomes the 'state' message, because people always view the state (your neighbour) as limiting one's personal freedom, forgetting that they are the state, and should expect to be bound by the same rules they expect others to be bound by.

Christ founded an 'ekklesia' (translated as church), a 'people called forth' (the meaning of ekklesia), not an individual way, but a way of individuals in harmony, and Paul always and only sought to rectify the personal impulse (his own being to hunt down and kill those who saw other than he, until Jesus asked him "why dost thou persecute me?") to a calling most difficult and most demanding (of self) - the Way of the Divine.

If he seems 'bloody minded' in his pursuit of this ideal, it was because in his faith he could settle and looked for nothing but the best, of himself and others. Remember his audience - he preached to the dockers and hookers, the thief and the vagabond, as well as the good and the saintly.

Sometimes, like Jesus Christ himself, you have to be blunt to get the message across - and where Paul seems uncompromising, Christ was ruthless.

The Pauline Medicine is to forget our 'suffering' and think of 'Him that is Unthinkable'.

The Pauline Message is that He chooses to forget His own suffering (at our hands), and think the unthinkable - us.

Thomas
 
Thanks, Thomas. I must say that I have never heard the issue elaborated upon quite so clearly (and well, IMO).

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove (belatedly) and Juantoo3 - thanks for the encouragement.

Pax,

Thomas
 
This thread has been quite interesting to read.

The view I have at the moment is that Paul's epistles and insights are not essential but valuable. If God never sent Paul, or if something really bad happened to him and he died, God would have sent someone else.

If we think that Paul's insights are the foundation of the Christian Gospel, then we would find ourselves in a very precarious position. If someone attacked Paul's insights (whether it's Jews, Muslims or atheists) and left us with a very convincing argument that there was something seriously wrong with them, I am sure you'd find your faith shattered.

What I've found from reading the epistles of Peter, James and John is that I can still continue to pursue my spiritual journey to God's kingdom even without Paul's insights. I would have the Four Gospels, the Acts (without Paul), the Revelation/Apocalypse and the Epistles of Peter, James and John.

I must admit that without Paul's insights, I would be a poorer believer, but I would still be a believer.

Actually, if I stop thinking of Paul's work as foundational, I believe my Christian belief system would stand a lot stronger against attacks on Paul because I would be able to find support for Paul's work in the epistles of Peter, James and John.

John talked about love, James talked about faith and Peter about hope. Paul talked about all three.

We seem to think Paul is everything to Christianity but actually he isn't. It's just that you read more about him in the NT.

Peter, James and John's epistles may be relatively short, but that isn't a problem. We should suck as much life out of them as we can. It's the meaning that matters not the quantity. I reckon I could quote at least a dozen really powerful verses from either of these three apostles. Short, but powerful.

I don't think fallibility/infallibility is as much of an issue as whether Paul was a true believer or not. What matters is that Paul was a true believer. If Paul was a true believer, what he said about the reality he knew would have been the Truth.

As 1 John 4:1 says, test the spirits. If after reading the epistles you find something that could not have come from a true believer, you have a good reason to doubt that epistle's truth. Your ability to discern falseness will depend on where you are in your spiritual journey.
 
juantoo3 said:
I am curious, since I have seen the topic brought up from time to time, just what Christianity would look like minus the teachings of Paul. Frankly, Paul has many detractors, but I have yet to see any of them post what Christianity should be, in their view. What is left when we remove the teachings of Paul?
The christianity of people being led by the Holy Spirit is and can always persist but it does not mean you are to think hypothetically to omit the epistles of Paul of any epistles in the New Testament: may they be of Peter, Jude, James, John or Paul. The teachings of St. Paul is of course the teachings of Jesus Christ. Do you remember when Christ prayed about his flock when He`ll depart?
 
I love Pual his alaberations has brought me understandings of the other writers, of my self, and of Christ..... But to Say that him or any of the others are foundational is a falsehood in itself... Thats like saying My window is a part of the foundation of my house. I may see things inside more clearly, but I dare not build anything on top of that window! It would be crushed.... just like our faith would.

Our foundation is on the understanding that Jesus is the Son of the living God:
Matt 16:14-18
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
NKJV
Upon this foundation are we placed in the body of Christ, and all other knowledge is the building blocks of our faith. Spiritually inspired of course.

I think Pual as well as the others play a very important part in the scriptures(just like a window or a door to my house)... but they are not foundational.... Needfull but not foundational.... I have to agree though that even if something happened to Paul, as well as any others; God would have placed someoneelse in their spot. (But The wood, the frames, carpeting, and windows was good and God used what he used.)
 
The faith may have remained, but the look of the house (religion), would be different. However, if we are to acknowledge the absolut athority of God, then this is an excersise in futility. Paul was going to become part of the fabric of Christianity whether he wanted to or not. No, God would never overide man's will, but He never said anything about changing man's heart. I believe Paul was an integral part of God's plan, because:

1. His character and force of will were powerful and charismatic.
2. He was a Roman, and a Jew, and he had drive like few other people (even today).
3. His faith was indomitable.
4. He had the uncanny ability to quell squabbles and unite people under a common cause.

Peter may have been the "Rock", but Paul was the foreman and architect, and Sherrif.

my two cents.

v/r

Q
 
Peter may have been the "Rock", but Paul was the foreman and architect, and Sherrif.
Peter was not the foundation... But it was the understanding that:
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." In Matt 16:16 That is the foundation to Christianity. This is the basic principle to become a Christian, all else is built upon this foundation.


but Paul was the foreman and architect, and Sherrif.

No Pual was not architect:

"Matt 16:17-19
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
NKJV
Christ is the I in this Statement, and The Rock is the revalation by God to Peter, not Peter himself, but the revalation.

Heres another peny or two:D
 
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