Was Jesus being mean when he said:

Paul was saying that the scripture was given to us by inspiration of God - it is "God breathed" onto the men that wrote as the Holy Spirt moved on them. Pual was saying we should use it for correction, profitable doctrine, reproof, correction, and for instruction of righteousness.
 
Marcion said:
Yes it's very possible they are the same. Some apocrypha texts give Jesus and Michael two separate characters, though both Michael and Jesus are angels/sons of God. It's also kinda sketchy in our own modern bibles today, but if I had to choose one of the angels of God, the most likely candidate would be Michael imo. He was the one who led God's angels against Satan's during the Rebellion. I'm not a JW, but I definately agree with more of their beliefs than most other Christian denominations. I don't worship any kind of images either, not even the cross. I don't think it's right to portray jesus suffering, I'd much rather remember the life he lived for us :)
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hi, i thought this was interesting , it is thoughts on jesus and micheal from a jehovahs witness magazine.


The​
Bible’s Viewpoint


​





Who​
Is Michael the Archangel?


​



ACCORDING to the Bible, there are millions of angelic creatures inhabiting the spirit realm. (Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11) From beginning to end, the Scriptures make hundreds of references to the angels that remain loyal to God. Yet, only two of these spirit creatures are mentioned by name. One is the angel Gabriel, who personally delivered messages from God to three different individuals over a period of some 600 years. (Daniel 9:20-22; Luke 1:8-19, 26-28) The other angel mentioned by name in the Bible is Michael.​

Michael is clearly an outstanding angel. For example, in the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of Jehovah’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1) In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9) The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and hurls them out of heaven. (Revelation 12:7-9) No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It is no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as "the archangel," the prefix "arch" meaning "chief," or "principal."​



The​
Controversy Over Michael’s Identity


​



Christendom’s religions, as well as Judaism and Islam, have conflicting ideas on the subject of angels. Some explanations are vague. For instance, The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: "There may be a single superior angel and/or a small group of archangels (usually four or seven)." According to The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, Michael is the "name of a superhuman being, in regard to whom there have in general been two rival opinions, either that he is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or that he is one of the so-called seven archangels."​

In Jewish tradition these seven archangels are Gabriel, Jeremiel, Michael, Raguel, Raphael, Sariel, and Uriel. On the other hand, Islam believes in four archangels, namely, Jibril, Mikal, Izrail, and Israfil. Catholicism also believes in four archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. What does the Bible say? Are there several archangels?​



The​
Bible’s Answer


​



Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term "archangel" in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.​

Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of "the Lord Jesus" and "his powerful angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: "He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."—1 Peter 3:22.​

While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel. In his letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul prophesied: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) In this scripture Jesus is described as having assumed his power as God’s Messianic King. Yet, he speaks with "an archangel’s voice." Note, too, that he has the power to raise the dead.​

While on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said: "Young man, I say to you, Get up!" (Luke 7:14, 15) Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus "cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’" (John 11:43) But on these occasions, Jesus’ voice was the voice of a perfect man.​

After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a "superior position" in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God’s trumpet sounded the call for "those who are dead in union with Christ" to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued "a commanding call," this time "with an archangel’s voice." It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call "with an archangel’s voice."​

Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel

 
thanks for the article! yes Paul was certainly speaking of the Christ having command over the angels, and that would explain then the epithet "Archangel." Only Michael bears that epithet, so that must be Christ's celestial name. :)

From my religious tradition, we Dualists believe the first Archangel was Lucifer, according to the Secret Revelation of John, he it was who alone commanded all the angels of Heaven. After Lucifer (now called Satan) rebelled with 1/3 the heavenly host it was Christ who became the new Archangel, and I've seen some scholars already point out that the Christ would have been identified with Michael by the Dualists. Well if Michael is the Christ, it certainly takes the vague mysterious nature away and gives Jesus a vivid image of greatness we can truelly understand :)
 
mee said:
there is every indication in the scriptures that jesus is michael .also jesus is Gods son and inferior to Jehovah God .jesus has been given great aurthority in the heavens and is now a king of Gods kingdom in the heavens, and is invisibley rulingfrom there.
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Dear mee,

:eek: Can I ask where you heard this about Jesus? The part about Jesus being inferior to God the Father?
 
JustifiedByFaith said:
Dear mee,

:eek: Can I ask where you heard this about Jesus? The part about Jesus being inferior to God the Father?
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This is a valid question, however, one the answer of which should be listened to with an understanding that it is a belief that some hold very close to their "Christian identity". I for one am curious too. ;)

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
This is a valid question, however, one the answer of which should be listened to with an understanding that it is a belief that some hold very close to their "Christian identity". I for one am curious too. ;)

v/r

Q
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Dear Quahom1,

Thank You. I agree. I do also look forward to the answer, I will only subject it to the light of the scriptures and not my personal opinions of course.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 
JustifiedByFaith said:
Dear Quahom1,

Thank You. I agree. I do also look forward to the answer, I will only subject it to the light of the scriptures and not my personal opinions of course.
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Trust me . . . so will the other side in this debate. ;)
 
JustifiedByFaith said:
Dear mee,

:eek: Can I ask where you heard this about Jesus? The part about Jesus being inferior to God the Father?
Click to expand...

Thats just one of the many unique beliefs Charles Russell and the men who have followed after him have came up with.
 
The​
Father—Superior to the Son​

Jesus taught his disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name." Our heavenly Father, whose name is Jehovah, is described in the Bible as being superior to his Son. For example, Jehovah is "from everlasting to everlasting." But the Bible says that Jesus is "the firstborn of every creature." That Jehovah is greater than Jesus, Jesus himself taught when he said: "My Father is greater than I." (Matthew 6:9; Psalm 90:1, 2; Colossians 1:15; John 14:28, King James Version) Yet, the Trinity doctrine holds that the Father and the Son are "equally God."​
The Father’s superiority over the Son, as well as the fact that the Father is a separate person, is highlighted also in the prayers of Jesus, such as the one before his execution: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup [that is, an ignominious death] from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) If God and Jesus are "one in essence," as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ will, or wish, seem different from that of his Father?—Hebrews 5:7, 8; 9:24.
Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."—Mark 13:32.


Martin Werner, as professor at the University of Bern, Switzerland, observed: "Wherever in the New Testament the relationship of Jesus to God, the Father, is brought into consideration, whether with reference to his appearance as a man or to his Messianic status, it is conceived of and represented categorically as subordination."​
 
mee said:
The​
Father—Superior to the Son​

Jesus taught his disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name." Our heavenly Father, whose name is Jehovah, is described in the Bible as being superior to his Son. For example, Jehovah is "from everlasting to everlasting." But the Bible says that Jesus is "the firstborn of every creature." That Jehovah is greater than Jesus, Jesus himself taught when he said: "My Father is greater than I." (Matthew 6:9; Psalm 90:1, 2; Colossians 1:15; John 14:28, King James Version) Yet, the Trinity doctrine holds that the Father and the Son are "equally God."​
The Father’s superiority over the Son, as well as the fact that the Father is a separate person, is highlighted also in the prayers of Jesus, such as the one before his execution: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup [that is, an ignominious death] from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) If God and Jesus are "one in essence," as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ will, or wish, seem different from that of his Father?—Hebrews 5:7, 8; 9:24.
Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."—Mark 13:32.


Martin Werner, as professor at the University of Bern, Switzerland, observed: "Wherever in the New Testament the relationship of Jesus to God, the Father, is brought into consideration, whether with reference to his appearance as a man or to his Messianic status, it is conceived of and represented categorically as subordination."​
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that describes the nature of his servant role during his time here so he could die for us even though it is clear god told the angels to worship him on earth and god gave him his attributes which made him sinless, lets also talk about the son before he was manifested in the flesh, lets also talk about the son after he was risen and glorified. lets not just post scripture that supports christs position that he didnt come as a man to glorify himself, but god the father in heaven, lets also talk about where he came from and where he went to and in what manner.
 
Dor said:
Thats just one of the many unique beliefs Charles Russell and the men who have followed after him have came up with.
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Dear Dor,

Thank you for stating that this belief has come from man and from the interpretations of man. We must subject all things to the "light" of the scriptures and hold fast that which is true.;)
 
Conscience said:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God. Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished. John 3:16-20
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This is pretty much a direct slap at the Jews isn't it?

Chris
 
Conscience said:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it. There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God. Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished. John 3:16-20
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I guess I've joined this thread late.
I don't get how this could be taken as mean.
I could very possibly be missing something though, I often do.
Would Conscience, or someone else explain how this might be mean.
Thanks
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
This is pretty much a direct slap at the Jews isn't it?

Chris
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Why, yes Chris, it was a great slap in the face of Jews...and the poster was (for many reasons), eventually banned...:eek:

v/r

Q
 
cavalier said:
I guess I've joined this thread late.
I don't get how this could be taken as mean.
I could very possibly be missing something though, I often do.
Would Conscience, or someone else explain how this might be mean.
Thanks
Click to expand...

The scripture itself wasn't considered mean, but the context in which it was originally used was...
 
Quahom1 said:
Why, yes Chris, it was a great slap in the face of Jews...and the poster was (for many reasons), eventually banned...:eek:

v/r

Q
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I think he had a thing about Catholics, too. Something about them not being Jewish enough, as I recall.
 
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