Could this be a Mistake?

Again, you guys have a point. As a matter of fact, you're right - Jesus ALWAYS put himself a level UNDER God. Likewise, the Holy Spirit puts himself a level UNDER Jesus, by testifying that he is the Truth, and Way to God. The Father sends the Son who redeems a lost people, and when people come to the Son, they receieve the Holy Spirit who proves to them that Jesus is telling the truth, and that we are to Follow him to Get the the father.

To me that sounds like a plan. When I was little, I used to watch a show called "A-Team." One of the characters on there would always use the following qoute when his plan became a success. He'd say, "I love it when a plan comes together!" This is what I see when I reflect on a Triune God's mission to save mankind. That said, here's what the Bible says n Hebrews 1:8:

"But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Whoa! Did God Just call Jesus (The Son) God? Hmm?
 
Conscience said:
Now where did I say I know more than anyone else here? Come on, why would you say that? Just because I have strong faith in Jesus being God, and I back it up with strong examples such as #9 above, you think I believe Im some how smarter than you. Hmmm? Well in that case, let the truth be known...I wasnt the one to say it!
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lets just say, that it is NOT a salvation issue as some claim, though i have had many stones thrown at me because i do not believe Jesus is God. & that i know i am probably only one, of less than 1000 people alive who see it all the way through, the same way.
just remember there are about 10 different versions as to how the Messiah works into the Godhead and in some respect i feel they should all be tolerated.

i respect your faith that you believe Jesus is God, I just ask that you would accept mine the same way, even though you may never understand why i see it the way i do.

i believe it is deeper than any of us will ever know, while in the flesh.
 
didymus said:
I know people here hate it when we cut and paste but it was time efficient. Jesus put himself on a level below God on numerous occasions. I believe that God was above Jesus. God is and was God. Jesus was a reflection and His manifestation of the divine through a human.

I put on this link below which describes the use of one. You can see what the Greek translation was in this case.
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nice post didymus, that is kind of how i see it too.

any way, i am not really up for a long debate on it, so you guys have fun & i will refrain from here...maybe later.:)
 
You are right! I understand that we wont all have the same beliefs, and I respect your opinion and faith. Sorry if I came across intolerant.
 
Jesus was definately one with God. But like path of one is saying, Jesus was not the sum total of God. Christians revere Jesus, but when we pray, do we pray to Jesus or do we give honor to Jesus? Do we respect the God that was in Jesus or do we respect Jesus as God? There is a difference. Though you are what you eat, I am not an apple.
 
Conscience you said:
(In the Trinity there is both oneness of being and distinctness of persons. The Son is eternally subordinate to the Father, but the subordination is not the essence of their being. To understand this, it is to be noted that the relationship is one that inheres within the one divine reality. In other words, the Son is subordinate to the Father not in essence but in relationship. Both statements are true: "I and the Father are one" and "the Father is greater than I.")

How are we all supposed to understand that? Not everyone likes delving into mysticism, it's tough to comprehend the Trinity and about half of all Christians disagree with it alltogether. I for one need things more simple or I get irritated and confused, and then I give up trying to "get" it. I don't think God or Jesus wants things complicated for anyone, that's not why Jesus came here, he didn't come to teach some complicated Trinitarian Godhead. Unless he was just a philosopher or mystic, and Christianity then ends up being just another mystical religion. I believe Jesus came to reveal his Father in Heaven, to save those who were lost in this evil world. Those who come to the Father will be saved. Or would Christians rather twist the message around and say you can only understand Jesus and God through a mystical Trinity? Those who understand the Trinity only will be saved?

Oh one more thing, if the Jews actually thought Jesus was God, then why did the Jews form the Ebionite Sect where Jesus was thought of as the next prophet in line for Jehovah? Messianic Jews today believe Jesus to be a prophet, nothing more...So if we actually trust the earliest concepts of the Christ among Jewish Circles, then we have the Jewish Christians believing he is a prophet only. James the lord's brother was one of these and led Peter astray. Read Galations
 
Im going to ask a question, give a statement, and qoute a Bible scrpture. Each of the following should put an end to the debate. Its all great that we can speculate and give our own opinions. But, in truth, our opinion dont matter if God has already spoken on the subject. OK, here I go - here's the question conscerning your following question:

"Messianic Jews today believe Jesus to be a prophet, nothing more."

If that is the truth, why do they go around professing "Yeshua Ha Masheck," "Jesus is the Messiah - the Holy Annointed One - God in the flesh?

Here's my statement:

As a Christian, the Bible should be our guildline in finding all truth. After all, it is a Revelation of God.

Here's the scripture:

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

In those scriptures God calls Jesus God. Why are we even having this discussion again?
 
Conscience, I read that over and it does appear that Jesus is being called God. Now if you read on; 3:1-6, you get a different story.

Jesus is being compared a high priest and an apostle. Jesus is ranked higher than Moses as being faithful to God in His house.

Jesus was in the house of God as the son. Then they go on to say that we are the house for Jesus if we believe in him.

Or how about Hebrews 2:5 The Son Made Lower than the Angels. This one has alot of interpretations in it.
 
Conscience, I read that over and it does appear that Jesus is being called God.

Well then, we should leave it there. Dont you think?

Now if you read on; 3:1-6, you get a different story. Jesus is being compared a high priest and an apostle. Jesus is ranked higher than Moses as being faithful to God in His house.

Jesus IS our high priest. In the OT the high priest would go into the temple's holy of holies, and sacrifice a lamb on the mercy set of the Ark of the Covernant. The Bible reveals that Jesus, God's Lamb, did the very same thing in the Heavenly temple. In the OT, it talks about a man named Melchizedek. This man has no record of being born, or having any parents - he just comes on the scene as a High Priest of God. The NT says Jesus is a high priest after the order of this man (Melchizedeck). I'd like you to read the following, I feel it may bless you:

http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/priesthood/transferofthepriesthood.htm

Jesus was in the house of God as the son. Then they go on to say that we are the house for Jesus if we believe in him.

OK, so? Are you still thinking that Jesus is the Father? I say again, Jesus is not the father or the Holy Spirit. But, like the other 2 members of the Godhead, he is God.

Or how about Hebrews 2:5 The Son Made Lower than the Angels. This one has alot of interpretations in it.

The book of Hebrews does not say that Jesus was made lower than the angels. That said, think about this: Why would Almight God choose to give up his glory, and give everything in the world, even praise and worship, to his Son? Didnt God say he is a jealous God?
 
Personally I'm not held down in my beliefs by any of these passages. I like to read them for insight and to gain in understanding about how Jesus wasperceived in those days. I'm fine with Jesus not being God. There are enough passages in the Bible to dispute the case either way so nobody wins it.

I focus on what Jesus said mostly. Jesus clearly stated he wasn't God on many occasions. Any allusion to Jesus being God in Hebrews was written after the fact and wasn't a quote of Jesus himself. If you read the history of Christianity you'll see there were many beliefs as to who and what Jesus was for years after his death. The writings in the Bible while beautiful and full of divine truths are not the only sources out there.
 
Oh, OK. But again, I personally believe that the Bible is the True word of God. And in it, we will find all the truth that God wants us to know. Oh and one other thing, did ever say that he wasnt God, or that he wasnt the father? I know of one time Jesus is qoted of saying that he was God, but I know of no times when he said he wasnt.
 
Conscience said:
That last explaination would make sense if the Jews didnt say this:

"because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (verse 33).

Apparently the Jews knew what Jesus was getting at.
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please ,what chapter are you referring to i cannot find a verse 33 in exodus 3 but maybe i am looking in the wrong place. john 8;33says
They replied to him: "We are Abraham’s offspring and never have we been slaves to anybody. How is it you say, ‘YOU will become free’ .so i am a bit confused which scripture you are referirng to:) oh its ok i have just found it john 10

 
path_of_one said:
By the way, just because the Jews were saying Jesus was making himself out to be God, doesn't mean their assumptions were correct. They also said Jesus was healing through channeling demonic forces, and I doubt any of us believe that was an accurate assessment.
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yes, i agree with this because in verse 36 jesus himself says he is Gods son.
Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. Jesus replied to them: "I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?" The Jews answered him: "We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god." Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: "YOU are gods"’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." Therefore they tried again to seize him; but he got out of their reach(john 10 ;31-39)

 
Conscience said:
Where are the Christians that Beleive the Bible is the word of God? Do we believe the core essientials? What about the following, do we believe it about Jesus?

1. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

2. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

3. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

4. John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Note: Jesus didnt say, "I was."

5. Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

6. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Note: This is such an obvious verse, it would take a lot of effort not to see the truth of the matter.

7. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Note: The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began.

8. Jesus accepted worship. In John 20:28 Thomas say "My Lord and My God." Jesus does nothing to correct or rebuke him. In Revelation John bowed down to worship and angel, but the angel rebuked him. Surely, Jesus would have stopped Thomas had he been making a mistake.

9. When talking to Satan, Jesus says to him "Thou shall only worship God." In the book of Hebrews God tells the angel to worship Jesus. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

10. Peter says that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 3:26). Yet, in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise Himself from the dead. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

All these are examples from the Bible. I believe if we allow the Holy Spirit to do what he said he will do, we will understand the scriptures. Why? Because it can only be discerned spiritually. I believe if we continue in trying to interprete the Bible, we'll only result in missing what God wants us to know. I believe we should just let the scriptures interprete itself.
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John 1:1, RS: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB]." NE reads "what God was, the Word was." Mo says "the Logos was divine." AT and Sd tell us "the Word was divine." The interlinear rendering of ED is "a god was the Word." NW reads "the Word was a god"; NTIV uses the same wording.​

What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying "the Word was God"? The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os´ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god.
Jesus—A Godlike One; Divine












 
Mee:

1. Why did God call Jesus "God" in the book of Hebrews?

2. Why did Jesus tell Satan to worship ONLY God, and in the book of Hebrews God tells the angels to worship Jesus?

3. Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord, and God." Why didnt Jesus rebuke him and say worship only God?

4. Peter said that God rose Jesus from, but Jesus said he rose himself. Was he lying?

5. Why would the Almight God give everything to Jesus, including worship, and praise? Certianly a jealous God will want what he deserves!
 
Conscience said:
Mee:

1. Why did God call Jesus "God" in the book of Hebrews?

2. Why did Jesus tell Satan to worship ONLY God, and in the book of Hebrews God tells the angels to worship Jesus?

3. Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord, and God." Why didnt Jesus rebuke him and say worship only God?

4. Peter said that God rose Jesus from, but Jesus said he rose himself. Was he lying?



5. Why would the Almight God give everything to Jesus, including worship, and praise? Certianly a jealous God will want what he deserves!
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John 20:28 (RS) reads: "Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’"


​


There is no objection to referring to Jesus as "God," if this is what Thomas had in mind. Such would be in harmony with Jesus’ own quotation from the Psalms in which powerful men, judges, were addressed as "gods." (John 10:34, 35, RS; Ps. 82:1-6) Of course, Christ occupies a position far higher than such men. Because of the uniqueness of his position in relation to Jehovah, at John 1:18 (NW) Jesus is referred to as "the only-begotten god." (See also Ro, By.) Isaiah 9:6 (RS) also prophetically describes Jesus as "Mighty God," but not as the Almighty God. All of this is in harmony with Jesus’ being described as "a god," or "divine," at John 1:1 (NW, AT).​

The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from this. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: "I am ascending . . . to my God and your God." (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: "These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself "the only true God" or that Jesus is a Trinitarian "God the Son," he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31)

 
Conscience said:
Mee:

1. Why did God call Jesus "God" in the book of Hebrews?

2. Why did Jesus tell Satan to worship ONLY God, and in the book of Hebrews God tells the angels to worship Jesus?

3. Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord, and God." Why didnt Jesus rebuke him and say worship only God?

4. Peter said that God rose Jesus from, but Jesus said he rose himself. Was he lying?



5. Why would the Almight God give everything to Jesus, including worship, and praise? Certianly a jealous God will want what he deserves!
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John​
​
2:19-22:


​



By what he here said, did Jesus mean that he would resurrect himself from the dead? Does that mean that Jesus is God, because Acts 2:32 says, "This Jesus God raised up"? Not at all. Such a view would conflict with Galatians 1:1, which ascribes the resurrection of Jesus to the Father, not to the Son. Using a similar mode of expression, at Luke 8:48 Jesus is quoted as saying to a woman: "Your faith has made you well." Did she heal herself? No; it was power from God through Christ that healed her because she had faith. (Luke 8:46; Acts 10:38) Likewise, by his perfect obedience as a human, Jesus provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead, thus acknowledging Jesus as God’s Son. Because of Jesus’ faithful course of life, it could properly be said that Jesus himself was responsible for his resurrection.​

Says A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament: "Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself from the dead independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11)."—(New York, 1932), Vol. V, p. 183.

 
HmmmK? O................K, I guess? Two quick things though. First,Thomas calls Jesus "God", and not "god." Next, what about the book of Hebrews when God calls Jesus God, and God telling angels to worship God. I once heard a guy who used to be a Jehovah's Witness say couldnt answer that. Can you?
 
one thing about worship. people literally worshipped Caesars & some thought they were gods. I have seen people bow before some eastern thought teachers & kiss there feet in worship.some cultures still bow to there kings & leaders. i think it was a typical thing for most people to do in those days.

my 2 pennies
 
We are commanded in scripture NOT to worship created things. Now, if the JW are correct, and that Jesus was created; albeit created 1st among all things, then by God's words we still should not worship him.

Why do people worship Jesus?
 
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