M
mee
Guest
who said that you have got to agree with the bible , its your choice, free will , i am only putting my beliefs here its up to you what you believe the same as meQuahom1 said:
I don't have to agree with your church elders. How I recon the Bible is my business. Same as everyone else here. That is what I am saying. And I think I just made that perfectly clear.mee said:who said that you have got to agree with the bible , its your choice, free will , i am only putting my beliefs here its up to you what you believe the same as me
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Q
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Conscience
Guest
"The Bible is clear that God had a plan to redeem mankind before he even made mankind."
The Bible say that Jesus is the lamb of God slain "before the foundation of the world." The plan of to save mankind began way before God created anything. Is this new to you?
The Bible say that Jesus is the lamb of God slain "before the foundation of the world." The plan of to save mankind began way before God created anything. Is this new to you?
No, He did not. Had He done so, you would have provided the proof in the Bible without further adieu. And Jesus did not get slain before the foundation of the world. Again, you offer nothing but your word? Or would you two care to turn more Biblical quotes as you see fit?Conscience said:
I am familiar with the scriptures you are about to present. Please indulge us.
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Q
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Hmm.. The wonderful thing about Christ is that HE freed us! We are no longer bound.. Its very sad to me when scriptures are taken out of context and used to bind people who genuinely love Christ.. These people need our prayers first and foremost.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with Q that I have never read anywhere that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.. but I do agree with Conscience that God is outside of time and knew that would happen before He even spoke the world into existance..
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Ephesians 1:4-5 and 11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
1 Peter 1:19-20 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Ephesians 1:4-5 and 11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
1 Peter 1:19-20 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
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Conscience
Guest
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Jesus was foreordained to be slain and to save mankind that God already knew was going to sin.
For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him for this purpose long before the world began, but now in these final days, he was sent to the earth for all to see. And he did this for you. (1st Peter 1:18-20)
Jesus was foreordained to be slain and to save mankind that God already knew was going to sin.
For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him for this purpose long before the world began, but now in these final days, he was sent to the earth for all to see. And he did this for you. (1st Peter 1:18-20)
M
mee
Guest
Conscience said:
"The founding of the world." This clear connection of ko´smos with the world of mankind also aids one in understanding what is meant by "the founding of the world," as referred to in a number of texts. These texts speak of certain things as taking place ‘from the founding of the world.’ These include the ‘shedding of the blood of the prophets’ from the time of Abel onward, a ‘kingdom prepared,’ and ‘names being written on the scroll of life.’ (Lu 11:50, 51; Mt 25:34; Re 13:8; 17:8; compare Mt 13:35; Heb 9:26.) Such things relate to human life and activity, and hence "the founding of the world" must relate to the beginning of mankind, not of the inanimate creation or the animal creation. Hebrews 4:3 shows that God’s creative works were, not started, but "finished from the founding of the world." Since Eve was evidently the last of Jehovah’s earthly creative works, the world’s founding could not precede her
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Thanks Conscience..Conscience said:
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Conscience
Guest
You're welcome Faithful Servant!
Mee, did you read 1st Peter 1:18-20?
Mee, did you read 1st Peter 1:18-20?
M
mee
Guest
Conscience said:
the Greek term (ka·ta·bo·le´) for "founding" can refer to the conceiving of seed in human conception. Ka·ta·bo·le´ literally means "a throwing down [of seed]
Therefore "the founding of the world" need not be taken to mean the beginning of the creation of the material universe, nor does the expression "before the founding of the world" (Joh 17:5, 24; Eph 1:4; 1Pe 1:20) refer to a point of time prior to the creation of the material universe. Rather, these expressions evidently relate to the time when the human race was ‘founded’ through the first human pair, Adam and Eve, who, outside of Eden, began to conceive seed that could benefit from God’s provisions for deliverance from inherited sin.—Ge 3:20-24; 4:1, 2the reason jesus was known before ,was because he was in heaven with his father Jehovah.remember jesus had a pre-exsitence before coming to the earth.
(John 17:5) So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
(Ephesians 1:4) just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
katabolhv
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Who was foreknown indeed (proegnwsmenou men). Perfect passive participle (in genitive singular agreeing with Cristou) of proginwskw, old verb, to know beforehand (Romans 8:29; 2 Peter 3:17). See prognwsin qeou in verse 1 Peter 1:2. Before the foundation of the world (pro katabolhß kosmou). This precise curious phrase occurs in John 17:24 in the Saviour's mouth of his preincarnate state with the Father as here and in Ephesians 1:4. We have apo katabolhß kosmou in Matthew 25:34 (kosmou omitted in Matthew 13:35); Luke 11:50; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 9:26; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8. Katabolh (from kataballw) was originally laying the foundation of a house (Hebrews 6:1). The preincarnate Messiah appears in the counsels of God also in 1 Corinthians 2:7; Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 1:9; Ephesians 3:9-11; Romans 16:25; 1 Timothy 1:9. But was manifested (panerwqentoß de). First aorist (ingressive) passive participle of panerow, referring to the Incarnation in contrast with the preexistence of Christ (cf. John 1:31; 1 John 3:5,8). At the end of the times (ep escatou twn cronwn). Like ep escatou twn hmerwn (Hebrews 1:2). The plural cronoi, doubtless referring to successive periods in human history until the fullness of the time came (Galatians 4:4). For your sake (di umaß). Proof of God's love, not of their desert or worth (Acts 17:30; Hebrews 11:39).
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- a throwing or laying down
- the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
- of the seed of plants and animals
- a founding (laying down a foundation)
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Who was foreknown indeed (proegnwsmenou men). Perfect passive participle (in genitive singular agreeing with Cristou) of proginwskw, old verb, to know beforehand (Romans 8:29; 2 Peter 3:17). See prognwsin qeou in verse 1 Peter 1:2. Before the foundation of the world (pro katabolhß kosmou). This precise curious phrase occurs in John 17:24 in the Saviour's mouth of his preincarnate state with the Father as here and in Ephesians 1:4. We have apo katabolhß kosmou in Matthew 25:34 (kosmou omitted in Matthew 13:35); Luke 11:50; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 9:26; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8. Katabolh (from kataballw) was originally laying the foundation of a house (Hebrews 6:1). The preincarnate Messiah appears in the counsels of God also in 1 Corinthians 2:7; Colossians 1:26; Ephesians 1:9; Ephesians 3:9-11; Romans 16:25; 1 Timothy 1:9. But was manifested (panerwqentoß de). First aorist (ingressive) passive participle of panerow, referring to the Incarnation in contrast with the preexistence of Christ (cf. John 1:31; 1 John 3:5,8). At the end of the times (ep escatou twn cronwn). Like ep escatou twn hmerwn (Hebrews 1:2). The plural cronoi, doubtless referring to successive periods in human history until the fullness of the time came (Galatians 4:4). For your sake (di umaß). Proof of God's love, not of their desert or worth (Acts 17:30; Hebrews 11:39).
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Dor
Bible Thumper
The word rendered "foundation" - καταβολή katabolē - means
properly a laying down, a founding, a foundation - as where the foundation of a building is laid - and the phrase "before the foundation of the world" clearly means before the world was made, or before the work of creation; see Mat_13:35; Mat_25:34; Luk_11:50; Heb_9:26; Rev_13:8, in all which places the phrase "the foundation of the world" means the beginning of human affairs; the beginning of the world; the beginning of history, etc. Thus, in Joh_17:24, the Lord Jesus says, "thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world," i. e., from eternity, or before the work of creation commenced. Thus, Peter says 1Pe_1:20 of the Saviour, "who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world." It was the purpose of God before the worlds were made, to send him to save lost men; compare Rev_17:8. Nothing can be clearer than that the phrase before us must refer to a purpose that was formed before the world was made. it is not a temporary arrangement; it has not grown up under the influence of vacillating purposes; it is not a plan newly formed, or changed with each coming generation, or variable like the plans of people.
properly a laying down, a founding, a foundation - as where the foundation of a building is laid - and the phrase "before the foundation of the world" clearly means before the world was made, or before the work of creation; see Mat_13:35; Mat_25:34; Luk_11:50; Heb_9:26; Rev_13:8, in all which places the phrase "the foundation of the world" means the beginning of human affairs; the beginning of the world; the beginning of history, etc. Thus, in Joh_17:24, the Lord Jesus says, "thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world," i. e., from eternity, or before the work of creation commenced. Thus, Peter says 1Pe_1:20 of the Saviour, "who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world." It was the purpose of God before the worlds were made, to send him to save lost men; compare Rev_17:8. Nothing can be clearer than that the phrase before us must refer to a purpose that was formed before the world was made. it is not a temporary arrangement; it has not grown up under the influence of vacillating purposes; it is not a plan newly formed, or changed with each coming generation, or variable like the plans of people.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
The Greek word for worship, "PROSKUNEO", is translated as "worship" for Jehovah 22 times in the New World Translation.mee said:
The SAME WORD applied to Jesus is translated "obeisance", "reverence", and "homage
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
mee said:
Jewish Rabbi's share a common desire to dispel any connection with the "I Am" of Jehovah in Ex 3 and the "I Am" of Jesus in John 8:58. The fact remains that when the Watchtower searched long and hard enough, they finally found a Rabbi that would say what they wanted. We could quote a pile of Rabbi's who are honest enough to admit that Ex 3 should be rendered "I am who I am"... "I am"
For Arians (JW's, Christadelphians) to appeal to Jewish Rabbis to support their doctrine is nothing short of incredible! Doing such is as dishonest as it is deceptive! JW's have not comprehended that if they had the Governing Body themselves sit down and explain their view of God (Father-true God, Son-a god and Holy Spirit-the force or energy of God) Jewish Rabbis would reach for the "wooden stake" and immediately label JW's as TRINITARIANS or TWINITARIANS! Stated differently, from the perspective of Jewish Rabbis there is NO REAL DIFFERENCE between the Trinitarian view of God and the Arian (JW's) view of God. Jewish Rabbis, when they hear JW's call Jesus God and divine, would label them as POLYTHEISTS! The Governing Body really blundered when they chose this route!
The fact remains that the title theos, is clearly applied to Christ proving that Jehovah's Witnesses make a deceptive argument as Lohse states: "Speaking first of the person of Jesus Christ ... In other passages of the New Testament the predicate "God" is without a doubt applied to Christ.' With these affirmations, which for Jewish monotheism were utterly offensive." (A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Bernard Lohse, 1966, p37-39)
mee said:
Please... why would they want to stone Jesus for claiming to have seen Abraham.. Do you honestly think the Jewish people would dare risk the wrath of God by killing a man for saying he saw Abraham??? They wanted to stone Him because He was claiming He was God.. the great I AM... That was blasphemy to them.. that was worth stoning someone for.. Incidentally its the same reason they demanded Pilate crucify him.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Actually this is misleading... This is the actual entry for John 2:19mee said:
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Destroy this temple (lusate ton naon touton). First aorist active imperative of luw, to loosen or destroy. It is the permissive imperative, not a command to do it. Note also naoß, not ieron, the sanctuary, symbol of God's naoß, in our hearts (1 Corinthians 3:16). There is much confusion about this language since Jesus added: "And in three days I will raise it up" (kai en trisin hmeraiß egerw auton). Those who heard Jesus, including the disciples till after the resurrection (verse 1 Corinthians 22), understood the reference to be to Herod's temple. Certainly that is the obvious way to take it. But Jesus often spoke in parables and even in enigmas. He may have spoken of the literal temple as a parable for his own body which of course they would not understand, least of all the resurrection in three days.
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