Is Truth Relative...

Conscience said:
By the way, I dont believe this because of faith, I passed the stage of faith awhile ago. Now, I know.

But, thats just me.
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No offense, but the Bible says throughout that faith is important. Not knowledge, but faith. In fact, you yourself have quoted passages that indicate it is the basis for your salvation. I thought your whole point has been to have faith. Did I misunderstand your position?
 
Conscience said:
Jesus once said, "I am the Truth." Mohammad once said, "Jesus is not the truth, but rather Allah." Both said something different, and implied that what they said was absolute truth.

Putting all the philosophy, and verbal gymnastics aside, please just answer the following. Which one of these men told the truth? Please note that neither of the two men was speaking in parables, but instead openly that what they said was absolute truth.
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I believe Jesus told the truth here, not Mohammed. Jesus displayed the true living God in his life. Muhammed did not lay down his life for anyone & as far as I know he did not rise from the dead either. so I am sticking with Jesus as the truth, the way & the life.
 
Path of One,

Im afarid you missed the point of my last post. I didnt say that I dont have faith, just that Im passed that stage. According to the Bible, faith "is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not yet seen." In the begining, I had hoped that Jesus is the truth, and that he died for my sins. So, with that in mind, I confessed my sins to him, and trusted him only for my salvation. In time, I found that my faith was not in vain, as God proved truth to me. Now, I no longer just have faith, I've evolved into a deeper understand, and KNOWING that Jesus is who he says he is.
 
In my opinion this is not a black and white answer. Truth is sometimes relative and sometimes absolute. Certain physical truths are absolute; we are all going to die. this is true whether you believe it or not. Humans can't live under water, like it or not you can't do it(unless with breathing apparatus or a bed and kitchen inside a submarine:cool: ) we need air, we can't fly etc.

Many truths are not absolute. If you go to a different country and live with a family that is poorer than what you're used to you will believe they are poor. If they grew up like that and had more than the majority of people around them you'll have a hard time convincing them they are poor.

Someones idea of God and salvation is relative. If I believe in God in a certain way that is my truth. I don't need to have your God or your conception of God for God to be real or true to me. God is not seen and is not heard in a way that can be proven to anyone but the beliver. Belief in God is subjective.
 
Abogado del Diablo,

The "gospel" of Thomos is NOT God's words. But, you're welcome to believe that if you so choose.

For: Didymus

In my opinion this is not a black and white answer.

We're all blessed and welcomed to have our own opinions. But, what does our opinions matter if God has already spoken on the issue? God tells us to choose - Choose him, or the world, choose life or death, choose truth or lies, etc. Those are black or white. There is no gray area, or middle ground with God. He doesnt bargin, he's the boss.

Truth is sometimes relative and sometimes absolute.

This is an absolute statement. You're contradicting yourself.

Someones idea of God and salvation is relative.

I agree. Our opinions dont matter, what does matter is what God says!

If I believe in God in a certain way that is my truth.

No, thats your opinion.

I don't need to have your God or your conception of God for God to be real or true to me.

I agree.

God is not seen and is not heard in a way that can be proven to anyone but the beliver. Belief in God is subjective.

The Bible says that when we become born again (through repenting and trusting in Jesus), we will have the Holy Spirt, who will prove truth to us. When we're born again, will will have a real relationship with God - We will KNOW him, and not just "know of him."
 
Conscience said:
Abogado del Diablo,

The "gospel" of Thomos is NOT God's words. But, you're welcome to believe that if you so choose.
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Really!? I know for a fact that they are. Do you have PROOF that they aren't? This is just another one of your opinions.
 
Ok conscience, you are forcing my hand. my opinion of truth may be absolute in that it is both relative and absolute at times but this doesn't negate that sometimes it is relative.

The Bible says......... what proof is there that God said what the authors of the books heard from God? I can write something down and say that God said it. Will you believe me?? Who wrote the Bible?? The majority of books in the Bible are from unknown sources, this includes OT as well as NT. Taking the Bible as the word of God is a choice based on their conviction of how God speaks to them.

There are millions of muslims out there that say you worship an idol or false God. You say they are wrong. Whose interpretation of what God said is accurate? They got books too. What makes you any more right than they are? There are millions of Jews out there that say Jesus wasn't their messiah. What are you gonna do about it? You see, God has spoken to everybody, not just some and not just Christians.
 
Conscience said:
Path of One,

Im afarid you missed the point of my last post. I didnt say that I dont have faith, just that Im passed that stage. According to the Bible, faith "is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not yet seen." In the begining, I had hoped that Jesus is the truth, and that he died for my sins. So, with that in mind, I confessed my sins to him, and trusted him only for my salvation. In time, I found that my faith was not in vain, as God proved truth to me. Now, I no longer just have faith, I've evolved into a deeper understand, and KNOWING that Jesus is who he says he is.
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Hmm... I too have found that my faith has not been in vain. I do not think God "proved truth" to me, because I do not ask this of God. I ask that God reveal as much truth as I can take at any point in my life, to always allow me to grow closer to Him. I do not ask God to prove anything. My experience has been that as I spiritually grow in God, I gradually receive more glimpses of Him and "Truth," but always with the understanding that there is much more that this little finite person cannot yet comprehend... So I do not claim to "know" anything but that I have experienced the aspects of God and Truth that I needed at that point in my life. I have faith that God will continue to guide me into an ever deeper awareness of who He is and my relationship to Him. I do not think there is an "end" where I will stop learning and "know" things.

I do believe that Jesus was who he said he was. I also believe that the NT was written by people who were recounting their memories and interpretations of Jesus' actions and words, and some people who never met Jesus at all (like Paul). And there were books, like the Gospel of Thomas, that were excluded from the Bible but show very early authorship and all evidence of being real gospels (that is, accounts of Jesus' life by first-hand observers). So, I have to take in prayer to God all scripture, carefully picking apart what I'm told to believe by other people (including churches) from what the Holy Spirit leads me to.
 
For: Abogado del Diablo

Really!? I know for a fact that they are. Do you have PROOF that they aren't? This is just another one of your opinions.

Certainly. How about the fact that it conflicts and contradicts with the rest of the gospels, is that enough, or do you want more?

For: Didymus

Ok conscience, you are forcing my hand. my opinion of truth may be absolute in that it is both relative and absolute at times but this doesn't negate that sometimes it is relative.

Again, you're contradicting yourself. That said, it is not that truth is relative, only our perceptions of it. You know?

The Bible says......... what proof is there that God said what the authors of the books heard from God?

The WHOLE Bible PROVES that it is the word of God. I can say this with the utter most confidence, because the bible proves itself. Its almost begs on to test to see if its true. Look at the prophecies, for example. You will see that they have been written from outside our time domine. Look at the OT, vs the NT, you will see that each word is placed by careful divine engineering. Look at the way the gospel has the ability to change lives. Read and study it for yourself, you'll see!

I can write something down and say that God said it. Will you believe me??

Nope! Im not one to believe what I hear, nor do I trust easly.

Who wrote the Bible??

God. But it was penned by certain men that he chose.

The majority of books in the Bible are from unknown sources, this includes OT as well as NT. Taking the Bible as the word of God is a choice based on their conviction of how God speaks to them.

I think if you consider the Bible's prophecies, you will change your mind. Its too obvious that it is true, I cant see how anyone would choose not to believe. But then again, I guess I can. You see, I didnt always believe it.

There are millions of muslims out there that say you worship an idol or false God. You say they are wrong. Whose interpretation of what God said is accurate?

You're missing the point. Our opinions dont matter. What matters is what God says. Take God on his word, confess your sins to Jesus, and trust in him, and you will know the truth.

They got books too. What makes you any more right than they are?

While I believe that Jesus is the truth, I wont say that I am right, and they are wrong. I think that would be mean, and I dont want to hurt anyone's feelings. What I would do however, is to say take Jesus on his words - do what he ask - try him to see if he is true. When I say try, I mean do exactly what he asks.

There are millions of Jews out there that say Jesus wasn't their messiah. What are you gonna do about it?

Nothing! I'll leave that up to God. He promised that they will come to know Yeshua as their Messiah in the endtimes. Millions have already. I'd say that gives credence to prophecy, what about you?

You see, God has spoken to everybody, not just some and not just Christians.

Yes, indeed! God has spoken to EVERYONE, and he says the SAMETHING. But, not everyone believes that. Look, if we believe that God is not a good of confussion, then why do we think that God will give different people different truths?
 
Conscience said:
For: Abogado del Diablo

Really!? I know for a fact that they are. Do you have PROOF that they aren't? This is just another one of your opinions.

Certainly. How about the fact that it conflicts and contradicts with the rest of the gospels, is that enough, or do you want more?
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Who wrote the gospels? When? Where? Why?
Who edited them? When? Where? Why?
Who chose to include them in the Bible? When? Where? Why?

Nope. NOT EVEN CLOSE to proof.

Try again.
 
For: Path of One

I do not think God "proved truth" to me, because I do not ask this of God. I ask that God reveal as much truth as I can take at any point in my life, to always allow me to grow closer to Him. I do not ask God to prove anything.

Neither have I. Who am I to ask God to prove anything to me? I said, I trusted Jesus, and God proved everything to me. He proved that the WHOLE bible is his words. He proved that Jesus alone is the way to God. He proved that Jesus is God. And, he proved all the many other things that the Bible mentions. They're too much to write down.

My experience has been that as I spiritually grow in God, I gradually receive more glimpses of Him and "Truth," but always with the understanding that there is much more that this little finite person cannot yet comprehend...

Most def. I agree!

So I do not claim to "know" anything but that I have experienced the aspects of God and Truth that I needed at that point in my life. I have faith that God will continue to guide me into an ever deeper awareness of who He is and my relationship to Him. I do not think there is an "end" where I will stop learning and "know" things.

Good for you. This is awesome!

I do believe that Jesus was who he said he was.

King of Kings? Savior of the World? Only way to God? God? You mean those, right?

I also believe that the NT was written by people who were recounting their memories and interpretations of Jesus' actions and words, and some people who never met Jesus at all (like Paul).

The Bible says that Pual saw Jesus. It was Jesus that revealed to Paul the consealed truth of the Old Testment.

And there were books, like the Gospel of Thomas, that were excluded from the Bible but show very early authorship and all evidence of being real gospels (that is, accounts of Jesus' life by first-hand observers).

If the book of Thomas conflicts and contradicts with the Biblical 4 gospels, why do you believe it agian?

So, I have to take in prayer to God all scripture, carefully picking apart what I'm told to believe by other people (including churches) from what the Holy Spirit leads me to.

Please be sure of this - I am NOT judging you!! That said, you should do what the Bible says to do, which is make sure you're in the faith, and make sure its the Holy spirit of God who is leading you. There are other forces that lead people, spiritual warfare is REAL! The Bible says that if anyone, or angel or whatever else preaches something that is different from what is in the Bible, let them be acursed. Let the Bible alone be your guildline for truth, and you'll know if it is the Holy Spirit that guides you.
 
Paul said he met up with the resurrected Jesus. He did not know Jesus during Jesus' life on earth, nor was he chosen as a disciple. I have done some study into Paul as well as comparing the epistles with the gospels. I came to some interesting conclusions, as have others who have studied the Bible incorporating historical, cultural, and linguistic contexts. I would ditto AdD... study the history of the Bible and Christianity. Without doing so, I think some of us are operating at entirely different wavelengths from you and these debates will never be resolved, nor will you really understand our positions.

As for the Gospel of Thomas- have you read it? Have you read about its history? Have you compared it to the other gospels? Because I have, and a good chunk of the material is identical. To me, it is far more in line with Matthew, Luke, and Mark than those three are with John.

As for who is guiding me- thanks for your good intentions, but I've been at this path a long time. I was born a mystic and began describing my dreams as soon as I could talk. I prayed to God as far back as I can remember (about four), and had mystical visions of God by the age of ten. My path has brought me to love and compassion, forgiveness of my persecutors and those who have harmed me, patience, self-control... in essence, the fruits of the Spirit. If you want to believe that I am being guided by something other than the Holy Spirit because my beliefs do not agree with yours, or some of my mystical experiences are not something with which you are comfortable, that is your prerogative. But trust me when I tell you that your words to me will not cause me to blaspheme God and agree with you.
 
Conscience said:
I'll have to respectfully disagree. I believe as the Bible teaches, when sin entered man, we lost our connection with God. Because of sin, it is impossible to know what God wants us to do, because we're by nature (being born in sin), enemies of God. This is why we must be "born again." Through Jesus, we're born spiritually back into a relationship with God, knowing him, and having him lead us. By the way, I dont believe this because of faith, I passed the stage of faith awhile ago. Now, I know.

But, thats just me.
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I agree that man lost connection with God through sin. If you remember in the Old Testament, God's people had to sacrifice animals to atone their sins. Jesus' sacrifice was the atonement for man's sins. Jesus, no doubt, had a major connection with God. His life, and his understanding of God, is in the New Testament as the example that man can use to gain the connection with God. That is why he is the way, the truth, and the life. We must be born again in understanding of the way, the truth, and the life of a serious connection with God. And that must be done by faith that you can achieve a relationship with God. Faith is the unquestioned belief in something that does not require proof or evidence. There is no evidence or proof of God but by what you believe. And evidently, that is enough.
 
From the Mahatma (Great Soul)

"All the religions of the world, while they may differ in other respects, unitedly proclaim that nothing lives in this world but Truth."

"I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him. I am prepared to sacrifice the things dearest to me in pursuit of this quest. Even if the sacrifice demanded my very life, I hope I may be prepared to give it."

"In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in an clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth."

"My religion is based on truth and non-violence. Truth is my God. Non-violence is the means of realising Him."

Mohandas Gandhi
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peace,
lunamoth
 
Ghandi is one of my heros. I have 5. But, like everyone else, he sined and fell short of the glory of God.
 
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