Religion as an excuse for war?

Hello All,
As A. Khalil pointed out ...
It seems to me that if one looks closer, the majority of religions do indeed create an 'us' and a 'them', 'believers' and 'nonbelievers', 'believers' and 'infidels', 'the chosen' and the 'heathen', the 'saved' and the 'lost' etc. etc. even if it wasn't the original intent. Religion is created by man and does provoke separatism whereas true spirituality teaches unconditional love and acceptance of all. Yet, perhaps religion isn't creating an excuse for war but rather the people who want war find it convenient to use the tenets of religion to justify their actions. Both Muslims and Christians have used this in the past as history testifies though other religions have done the same.

Many religions also require proselytizing as one of their tenets whereas true spirituality doesn't force itself on anybody. Perhaps part of the problem is that many religions teach a God of emotions subject to anger, vengence, jealousy, hate and changing his mind whereas those are emotions of men and not of an unchanging mericiful and loving God whose essence is Love and peace. Can one who really believes God is a God of emotions found in men believe otherwise than that he is justified to kill under conditions he envisions God would not approve of? Such is the nature of religions who teach these things about God to men.

Just some thoughts to consider concerning this subject.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
Interestingly Islam is, doctrinally, one of the most inclusive of religions (the most, in the west, I think).

Mohammed (pbuh) ruled a difference between the 'infidel' or non-believer, and 'people of the book' - by which is commonly understood as Christian or Jew, and there are many instances of Islam protecting the people and holy places of other religious traditions.

It is widely accepted in Traditionalist circles that by 'people of the book' the Prophet meant all peoples who live according to the precepts of a Revealed or Scriptural tradition.

Further the Prophet said that although Islam is the Last Revelation and therefore the summation of all that has been revealed to man, that in no way was to the detriment of those religions, which still continue as, if one might use the Buddhist term 'upaya' or 'saving strategems' on the part of the Divine.

A notably example of this, historically, was when the First Crusade arrived in the Holy Land, Jew, Christian and Moslem were living quite happily side-by-side. The crusaders took the decision, to ensure the guilty might not escape justice, to slaughter everyone indescriminately.

If i may kindly disagree, the Prophet (pbuh) did not say that Islam was the last revelation, he said it was the last before judgement day. Big difference.
 
Absolutely right! Some of the most fervent hardline fundamentalists are happy to quote Leviticus when it comes to homosexuality - but almost never do they consider themselves likewise condemned over issues such as stealing and adultery.

The hypocrisy does not stop there... Look at the whole of levitical law... The church as a whole picks and chooses which law that should be followed and which should not... it is amazing what we are capable of justifying... heh

Its all about the spin... at one point I was a master of the theological spin... which looking back now I realize was a form of deception and lying... My intentions were good... I thought I was showing them the way to salvation... I really thought I was doing the right thing... ack... :(

Peace
 
Why do many countries use religion as an excuse for war?

It is far too easy in today's society to say "Im doing it in the name of religion."

So using religion as an excuse means it is okay to perpertrate some of the most heinous atrocities on the planet?

What do you think?
2 timothy 3;5
having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.
 
Someone observed that the reason religion is invoked in connection with war is that it's hard to argue with it. Basically, it's like capitalizing on the dogmatic aspects as well as the strength of people's convictions and commitments.

A very insidious form of propaganda. A sure sign of evil.
 
Just my opinion but I don't think there is ever a really good reason for war. I was raised Baptist and always found it hard to swallow when someone like a pastor or an older family member would condone war or war like actions and often attribute it to "the glory of God". I am not the most well versed in Christian scripture but I do remember somewhere in the Christian bible a passage that said something along the lines of - all ye nations of the world learn to war no more , but love one another-. Also I believe one of the ten commandments is very plainly "thou shalt not kill". I don't remember a claus in there that gave any exception. So I guess from my humble, and less informed than the average person, opinion it doesn't seem justifiable, but having studied history it seems common place to use religion as a reason (not just Christianity). I would have to agree with the previous post by Netti a sure sign of evil and in my opinion a contradiction, based on my knowledge of religions (which may be insufficient).
 
Just my opinion but I don't think there is ever a really good reason for war. I was raised Baptist and always found it hard to swallow when someone like a pastor or an older family member would condone war or war like actions and often attribute it to "the glory of God". I am not the most well versed in Christian scripture but I do remember somewhere in the Christian bible a passage that said something along the lines of - all ye nations of the world learn to war no more , but love one another-. Also I believe one of the ten commandments is very plainly "thou shalt not kill". I don't remember a claus in there that gave any exception. So I guess from my humble, and less informed than the average person, opinion it doesn't seem justifiable, but having studied history it seems common place to use religion as a reason (not just Christianity). I would have to agree with the previous post by Netti a sure sign of evil and in my opinion a contradiction, based on my knowledge of religions (which may be insufficient).
I abhore war. Yet war is a reality, because there are others who wish to revoke your rights, in order to control you, your way of thinking and your way of praying to your version of God. Or, they want what you have. Or they simply hate what you stand for, and want you erradicated.

Maybe that's why Jesus asked the Father to forgive man, for they know not what they are doing.

As an aside, you might consider reading Deuterotamy, and the book of Joshua, as well as the stories of David...it seems that God smiles upon the good and faithful servant, even in acts of war, and taking war to the enemy, when one's survival is at stake...

v/r

Q
 
I abhore war. Yet war is a reality, because there are others who wish to revoke your rights, in order to control you, your way of thinking and your way of praying to your version of God. Or, they want what you have. Or they simply hate what you stand for, and want you erradicated.
Was that a quote from a Palestinian moved from his home to a tent in 1947?

Or was that from a North American march of natives that were in the way of manifest destiny?

Or could it be from an Iraqi today?

Or maybe a tori when 10% of the colonies decided to become terrorists, treasonist traitors to the crown?

Nothing against you Q, but who is right in war depends on the side you are on.

But war is really a choice, we've never really tried peace. We'll give war the work over every decade someplace but if we attempted peace...oh that Jesus guy again, love your enemies, turn the other cheek for forgive 7x70 for a hundred years or so we might see a largely different world. And if it cost us a few million lives in the experiment, that would be much less then the tens of millions we kill every century with today's methods.
 
Was that a quote from a Palestinian moved from his home to a tent in 1947?

Or was that from a North American march of natives that were in the way of manifest destiny?

Or could it be from an Iraqi today?

Or maybe a tori when 10% of the colonies decided to become terrorists, treasonist traitors to the crown?

Nothing against you Q, but who is right in war depends on the side you are on.

But war is really a choice, we've never really tried peace. We'll give war the work over every decade someplace but if we attempted peace...oh that Jesus guy again, love your enemies, turn the other cheek for forgive 7x70 for a hundred years or so we might see a largely different world. And if it cost us a few million lives in the experiment, that would be much less then the tens of millions we kill every century with today's methods.

I suppose the Jews could have said the same thing circa 75 AD when the Romans scattered them from their homeland and gave it to the local natives and called them "palestinians", as a joke.

There were many native American tribes that welcomed the white settlers. But there were a select few that made life hell (just like they did with their native American neighbors), and people got ticked off. (not to dismiss the idiocy of whites who thought of natives as little more than vermin).

Iraq has yet to totally unveil itself...just wait.

Franklin was asked by the people "what kind of government do we have?" His reply: "A republic...if you can keep it."

No offense to you either Wil, but I know what I do not want, what I was born into, and what I want to keep, for you, for me, for our children, and their children...and I put on the uniform to help keep it that way. Some one has to do it, and I stepped up to volunteer, that is me and 2,000,000 other citizens who thought that was our calling. Of course we think (for the most part) God is on our side. To try and take that away from the soldier/sailor/airman would be to try and demoralize your own military.

War is a choice? Yes, the option is to let it be and let the aggressor think they can walk roughshod over us. Or one can try to negotiate (I think that was done prior to the invasion of Afghanistan, to which we were told we'd be buried by the glory of Allah)...so much for negotiation. The Iraqi war started in 1987 with the bombing of the USS Stark (totally unprovoked).

Jesus is talking on a personal level about forgiveness. And for the most part if taken to heart it works. But not everyone is Christian, and we still must answer the call to defend our citizens and nation, despite what our representitives believe.

Speaking of which, that is where our ultimate responsibility lies...electing the right representitives, instead of being too damn busy with our own personal lives and woes, to worry about who we put in office...

The fault ultimately lies with "we the citizens of these United States".

So busy to worry about who we put in office, but so damn quick to criticize our own foolish choices of who leads us.

That is the bottom line.

v/r

Q
 
I abhore war. Yet war is a reality, because there are others who wish to revoke your rights, in order to control you, your way of thinking and your way of praying to your version of God. Or, they want what you have. Or they simply hate what you stand for, and want you erradicated.

Maybe that's why Jesus asked the Father to forgive man, for they know not what they are doing.

As an aside, you might consider reading Deuterotamy, and the book of Joshua, as well as the stories of David...it seems that God smiles upon the good and faithful servant, even in acts of war, and taking war to the enemy, when one's survival is at stake...

v/r

Q

I certainly don't want to de-moralize our (U.S.) troops. I am very thankful for the many freedoms they provide me, I do admit that it is hard for me to feel deserving of those freedoms when they come at the cost of the lives of others no matter how wrong or right they may be. I have read the book of Joshua (it is my name in fact) and as I recall (it has been years) God actually spoke to Joshua and told him to make war on Jericho (spelling?). I haven't heard any rumors of God speaking to congress or the Bush administration. But when it all comes down to it I really don't consider myself informed well enough of anything to make judgements that involve the taking of lives, heck I'm too much of a wuss to even go hunting anyway. I am also glad that the powers that be make those decisions so that they don't come home to me and mine. But it still makes me feel un-deserving of the sheltered life that I have here in the U.S. when I stop and think about the people (on both sides) that die or have died to provide that. In short I guess I'm a dreamer who just wishes we as humans never learned how to kill. In regards to Deuteronomy I plead ignorance and certainly will check it out, thank you for the insight Q. This is an issue that has always been a "thorn in my side" that I am always to lazy/busy to really get un-cought up in life and really explore.
 
I certainly don't want to de-moralize our (U.S.) troops. I am very thankful for the many freedoms they provide me, I do admit that it is hard for me to feel deserving of those freedoms when they come at the cost of the lives of others no matter how wrong or right they may be. I have read the book of Joshua (it is my name in fact) and as I recall (it has been years) God actually spoke to Joshua and told him to make war on Jericho (spelling?). I haven't heard any rumors of God speaking to congress or the Bush administration. But when it all comes down to it I really don't consider myself informed well enough of anything to make judgements that involve the taking of lives, heck I'm too much of a wuss to even go hunting anyway. I am also glad that the powers that be make those decisions so that they don't come home to me and mine. But it still makes me feel un-deserving of the sheltered life that I have here in the U.S. when I stop and think about the people (on both sides) that die or have died to provide that. In short I guess I'm a dreamer who just wishes we as humans never learned how to kill. In regards to Deuteronomy I plead ignorance and certainly will check it out, thank you for the insight Q. This is an issue that has always been a "thorn in my side" that I am always to lazy/busy to really get un-cought up in life and really explore.
I did not imply that you did. What I will point out is the torn decisions that we have to make (here in America). We the citizens hate war. Ok? We hate war. But once committed, we are the most dangerous people on earth. Maybe that is what you and Wil are worried about. How can I say that? Simple, we are the only people on earth to ever drop an atomic bomb...twice, with no warning.

Everyone else threatens, and uses God as their backup (God will propel us forward). Last I checked, the US was the only nation to unleash "God's" power, for good cause (we thought). And it caused over 140,000 immediate deaths...

I'd say we are a force to be reckoned with, and so far, God hasn't punished us for our choices.

I also think we are stupid, considering that we lost more people in 9-11 than in World War II's Pearl Harbor, and our citizens are lack luster in the danger that is at our front door...

Mark my words, our time of testing is come, and 2,000,000 military is not enough. Every citizen's contribution is going to be required.

Right now, we are living on borrowed grace...

v/r

Q
 
I also think we are stupid, considering that we lost more people in 9-11 than in World War II's Pearl Harbor, and our citizens are lack luster in the danger that is at our front door...
Interesting, yet those folks weren't raised, trained or funded in or by Iraq, not one of them, nor their leaders, yet that is where we've killed hundreds of thousands and spent trillions, I agree we are stupid.

Where were they from, why that same country that refuses to increase oil production, we call it Saudi Arabia, our friends, interesting.

I still say that on 9/12 if we'd have said, we have 1 billion dollars to support the capture and trial of the guilty parties the world would have found and turned in Osama quite quickly, as no country was really behind this, simply a radical organization, a snake we've spent 7 years attacking and succeeded only in creating many more little snakes.

All I am saying, if my contention was correct to date we'd have saved 299 billion dollars which could be used for all sorts of good around the world, probably not have an oil crisis right now...but we can't prove or disprove any of it, because we refuse to....give peace a chance..

Why does the US refuse to use the international court?? Because we know if we initiate that on ANYONE, that same court will try our Presidents and Generals who are guilty of 'preemptive strikes' and lying to get the US congress and population behind an illegitimate war. One who most of our public does think is against Muslims, (otherwise why would we paint Obama with negative rhetoric in the same regard??)
 
Interesting, yet those folks weren't raised, trained or funded in or by Iraq, not one of them, nor their leaders, yet that is where we've killed hundreds of thousands and spent trillions, I agree we are stupid.

Where were they from, why that same country that refuses to increase oil production, we call it Saudi Arabia, our friends, interesting.

I still say that on 9/12 if we'd have said, we have 1 billion dollars to support the capture and trial of the guilty parties the world would have found and turned in Osama quite quickly, as no country was really behind this, simply a radical organization, a snake we've spent 7 years attacking and succeeded only in creating many more little snakes.

All I am saying, if my contention was correct to date we'd have saved 299 billion dollars which could be used for all sorts of good around the world, probably not have an oil crisis right now...but we can't prove or disprove any of it, because we refuse to....give peace a chance..

Why does the US refuse to use the international court?? Because we know if we initiate that on ANYONE, that same court will try our Presidents and Generals who are guilty of 'preemptive strikes' and lying to get the US congress and population behind an illegitimate war. One who most of our public does think is against Muslims, (otherwise why would we paint Obama with negative rhetoric in the same regard??)
I find your reasoning, frankly, unreasonable. We do not adhere to the world court for a simple reason...it violates our Constitution Wil. You may be willing to give up our constitution for security. I however, do not.

And I refuse to allow the international crap judge my countrymen. Yes it is crap. It is godless. At least this country has a vestige of God and concscience. European governments have no such claim. (not accusing the populace of Europe).

And I can't stand the loss of "memory" by Europe, of the good this simple country did for them. If it weren't for the US, there would be no Europe that you so admire...that is a flat fact.
 
Interesting, yet those folks weren't raised, trained or funded in or by Iraq, not one of them, nor their leaders, yet that is where we've killed hundreds of thousands and spent trillions, I agree we are stupid.

Where were they from, why that same country that refuses to increase oil production, we call it Saudi Arabia, our friends, interesting.

I still say that on 9/12 if we'd have said, we have 1 billion dollars to support the capture and trial of the guilty parties the world would have found and turned in Osama quite quickly, as no country was really behind this, simply a radical organization, a snake we've spent 7 years attacking and succeeded only in creating many more little snakes.

All I am saying, if my contention was correct to date we'd have saved 299 billion dollars which could be used for all sorts of good around the world, probably not have an oil crisis right now...but we can't prove or disprove any of it, because we refuse to....give peace a chance..

Why does the US refuse to use the international court?? Because we know if we initiate that on ANYONE, that same court will try our Presidents and Generals who are guilty of 'preemptive strikes' and lying to get the US congress and population behind an illegitimate war. One who most of our public does think is against Muslims, (otherwise why would we paint Obama with negative rhetoric in the same regard??)
We did not kill hundreds of thousands. Hussean killed hundreds of thousands. We made tens of thousands RUN! They lived Wil. Stop watching CNN. :rolleyes:

Don't blame the US and coalition for the all the deaths in Iraq. We didn't do it.

Look to the insurgents...but you can't because they don't have an identity. Sucks don't it?

Blaming uniformed men and women is STUPID.

And blaming their praying to God while they are in peril is FOOLISH and OUT OF LINE. You have no right. YOU aren't there, and have never been there. Please give them a break.

v/r

Q
 
Namaste Q,

The same people that quantified deaths in Bosnia, Somalia, GWI did it for GWII but for some reason suddenly we doubt their numbers. They are quite systematic by their polling, thru hospitals, morgues, neighbors, employers etc.

I don't watch CNN, I don't blame the men in uniform, I'm just stating what is known. a. millions have run and the last death count I saw was 300,000 on the low end to 600,000 on the high end, civilians dead in Iraq, not due to insurgents but due directly to our giving them freedom, occupation, regime change, invasion, rescue, pre-emptive strike, liberation, whatever you want to call it.

If we call this success ....
ONE of George W. Bush's most loyal former aides, Scott McClellan, has launched a blistering attack on the President, saying Mr Bush relied on "propaganda" to sell the Iraq war and that the administration has "veered terribly off course"...."History appears poised to confirm what most Americans today have decided - that the decision to invade Iraq was a serious strategic blunder. .... "What I do know is that war should only be waged when necessary, and the Iraq war was not necessary." ...
65% of Republicans still give GW a favorable rating...
 
seems that God smiles upon the good and faithful servant,

v/r

Q
very true ,and sticking to what Jesus taught makes the faithful ones the channel that Jesus is feeding in a spiritual way matthew 24;45-47



And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him." luke 9;35




Why were first-century Christians able to keep clear of the bloody wars and politics of their time?


Two basic principles helped them. First, there was the command of Jesus to the apostle Peter when Peter used a sword to defend him: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:52)


Second, the words of Jesus to Pilate when he asked about the nature of Jesus’ kingship: "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source."—John 18:36.



How did first-century Christians apply those principles? They kept themselves completely separate from the world, maintaining strict neutrality when it came to political and military affairs. (John 15:17-19; 17:14-16; James 4:4)

They refused to take up arms against their fellowman.


It is clear from history that first-century Christians joined neither the Jewish nationalist movements nor the imperial armies of Rome. At the same time, they did not try to tell the political leaders what to do, as that was the responsibility of those governmental leaders.—Galatians 6:5.



 
Oh, here I go, jumping in all late and everything. For any who aren't already aware, I'm a staunch pacifist. And yes, I'd lay my freedom down to stand before God after my death without the knowledge that I took other lives. I don't think my freedom is worth other people's lives, quite frankly. Or rather, that the heart of my freedom is my relationship with God, and no one can take that away. I don't *need* to practice my religion openly; my religion is my everyday life, my testimony is kindness and love and honesty, and nothing that happens to these inconsequential and ephemeral concepts we call "nations" can change the heart of my reality, which is God.

I appreciate that those in the military are doing what they feel it necessary to do. Or, more accurately, some are doing that. Quite frankly, though it may sound awful, I will be forthright and say I've also met a lot of folks in the military who just plain wanted the benefits and cash and came from poor families and couldn't afford college. Not everyone puts on the uniform because they have some high and mighty ideals about preserving the American way of life and freedom. An awful lot of kids do it because they felt they had precious few other options, which is more a statement of the US and real equality than dedication to "nation."

At any rate, I appreciate that those who feel it is their calling are doing what they feel called to do. I would not be unkind to them, any more than I am unkind to anyone. But I do not have to agree simply because by chance I was born here and am told I am "American." I don't bow to flags and nation-states and temporary leaders and things of this world. I don't believe the cost to beings- human and not- is worth salvaging an emphemeral social experiment. Because that is what we are, and what ALL societies are. In every time and in every empire, people feel threatened and go to war. And the passing of time erases every society from the planet- either through transformation to something else entirely or through domination by others or through outstripping resource bases and collapse. That is the fact of history, and like each individual must face death, every society/empire faces an end, which is only the beginning of a new society.

In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter whether I am a citizen of the US or not, whether I have these "freedoms" or not. Society is a cage of some sort no matter how enticing or lush it appears, yet if we would but embrace it, we are inherently free. That freedom which matters most deeply is inalienable, no matter how awful the prison of our society becomes. I am not against freedom, not at all. But I refuse to have other US folks tell me I should be grateful for people who kill and die for "me." I have not asked for such a cost, nor would I accept it. I am tired of being told I am ungrateful for something that I perceive as horrific and would not request to be given. Of course I am not grateful! I do not believe my one life, lived the way I want to live it, is worth the cost of countless others. No- I say I will hold on to my ultimate freedom- my freedom to choose peace, to embrace forgiveness on a global scale (not only personal, but blanketing all of humanity, as Christ showed us)- my freedom to stand up and say "Not in my name." I will hold on to my freedom to stand before God without the blood of other beings on my hands, without sacrificing what is most sacred and what doesn't belong to humanity for the sake of a temporary and fleeting identity- that I am "American."

I am not American. I was born in the US, through no choice of my own. I live here. I contribute what I can in the ways I feel are ethical. But *I am not American.* I am a human being. I am a child of God. I am a creature upon the earth. As such, my alliance is with LIFE. I take only those lives that are absolutely necessary- what I need to eat- which is proper for all creatures on the earth. I will not take lives for all that is unnecessary, including my desire to be "free." Because in pursuing such "freedom," I enslave my soul. I burden myself with death, with sacrifice to an idol, which is my "identity" and my "nation."

I belong to no one but the earth and God. I belong to Life. Life does not belong to me.

Quite frankly, and I know this is intensely radical- I could care less what happens to the constitution. Or rather, I know what will happen to the constitution. Like all documents in all empires, it will eventually fade to nothing. In time, all is lost. Just look at the history of humankind- it all fades. And perhaps the concepts will remain, but not because we fought for them, but rather because this is how humankind works- the concepts transform and are reused while the societies rise and fall, the empires come and go. We're just one more empire, probably a short-lived one because we are unsustainable, that will have our moment in time and then become history- become a collection of artifacts for archaeologists to dig up and a collection of documents that will be picked apart by historians.

The U.S. is nothing special. It is one more civilization in a history of civilizations.

"America," the Constitution, Congress- all are mere concepts, mere figments of our imagination, which will all come to pass and one day be completely forgotten apart from the legacy of what the earth does not swallow up- some plastic garbage, perhaps a little concrete, maybe a few documents.

My soul, however- who I am- that is immortal.

To me, it is utterly irrational and disharmonious to sacrifice what is God's, what is the earth's, what is higher than me for a fleeting identity, a temporary concept.

Indeed, America only has a vestige of following God if it sacrifices what belongs to God for temporary gain. Indeed, we have only a vestige of following Christ if we do not, in fact, follow him to the cross, asking God "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." Personally, I think the lukewarm vestige is more distasteful than a clear opposition to God. As Christ preached, be hot or cold, but do not be lukewarm.

As I see it, I am either for peace and life or I am not. I either overcome my fear and am willing to sacrifice myself for the only things that are ultimately real, or I am not. I work for the Kindgom of God- it is among us. We have never truly given it a chance. The history of humankind is a history of increasing war. War begets war. How could it be otherwise? I say, not in my name.
 
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I was thinking:
1. With evolution war is a good thing: survival of the ...
2. War is a violation of the golden rule and several of the 10 commandments.
3. "In my name" is the foundation of representative government.
 
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