Mark of the Beast

What if we are all wrong and the Mark of the Beast does not mean any of the above. To my way of thinking (right or wrong) the problem with interpreting the Bible and other great books lies in the mind of man as we think now. We spend too much time looking at only the surface meaning or just below the surface and can't see the "sacred" or "inner meaning". The "end times" as I understand them is only a reference to the end of the way we are and a chance to the way we were meant to be .... in other words we must die to the way we are in order to become whole again and return to a world of balance where we can live in peace with each other and with our universe. I sometimes speak of the spiralling energy within the body (call it our DNA if you wish) but it is also symbolized in the concept of "dragon energy" (only a concept, not a real dragon) .... the seven headed dragon for example symbolizes the seven energy centers within the body, the seven pillars of wisdom does the same, the seven towers .... look at all the rituals that use the number seven .... these are only reminders of a process to move this energy to a place that will bring about revelations and visions. The seven seals of revelation are about the same energy centers. So what is the "mark of the beast" .... the mark on the forehead is a symbol (not an actual mark) or a metaphor for the process of enlightnment because it takes place in what is referred to as the "third eye" which is located in the center of the brain right about the level of the center of the forehead .... it is also known as the pineal gland .... and there is a Biblical reference that says something like seeing God face to face in that place called Pineal (can't remember exact spelling .... ) but everything is codes in symbols and concepts like the Mark of the Beast, the Lightening Bolt, even the Dragon on only symbols. The inner sanctum of the brain (which is also known as the altar, the cave, the location of the holy grail, etc.) must be bridged in order to enter that state of being which will take us to "paradise, the promised land, eden" etc. Just my thought to share. It is hard to let go of long held on to beliefs that have been deeply buried in our minds, but when you are able to make that shift in focus you will find the answer to "what is freedom" because once found it can never be taken away again unless you give it away. We fight wars when we can live together in peace and harmony. he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
 
pohaikawahine said:
We spend too much time looking at only the surface meaning or just below the surface and can't see the "sacred" or "inner meaning". The "end times" as I understand them is only a reference to the end of the way we are and a chance to the way we were meant to be .... in other words we must die to the way we are in order to become whole again and return to a world of balance where we can live in peace with each other and with our universe. ... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
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Hello pohaikawahine, welcome to CR. :)

An interesting interpretation. I'm intrigued by how you weave so many different metaphors into your understanding of this. I agree tht the most important thing is to search for the sacred meaning of Revelation, and that the end times are a reference to the way we are supposed to be with God, an eternity in which every act sings His praise. It is future and it is now.

What does you sign-off line mean? Is it Hawaiian?

peace,
lunamoth
 
pohaikawahine said:
What if we are all wrong and the Mark of the Beast does not mean any of the above. To my way of thinking (right or wrong) the problem with interpreting the Bible and other great books lies in the mind of man as we think now. We spend too much time looking at only the surface meaning or just below the surface and can't see the "sacred" or "inner meaning". The "end times" as I understand them is only a reference to the end of the way we are and a chance to the way we were meant to be .... in other words we must die to the way we are in order to become whole again and return to a world of balance where we can live in peace with each other and with our universe.
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In the Baha'i view, this is also the case - but we just mark the calendar further along than traditional christian views. Rather than thinking we're close to having it happen, it's already started.
 
steven - mahalo for the reference to the Hopi site and

lunamoth - yes the closing is hawaiian "he hawai'i au", like most hawaiian words has meanings within meanings .... its literal translation is "I am Hawaii" , some people say "I am Hawaiian" but that is not the actual translation "I am Hawaii" is more accurate .... basically it means that I give breath to my culture by the way I live my life, I continue to make the culture live by remembering the basic values in who we are .... so it is more spiritual in meaning than appears. "Au" is also an interesting hawaiian word because it means "I" and also means "to swim" .... it is said that when you can move that spiralling energy through your body you can shout "au" and keep a person from drowning .... but again a meaning within a meaning .... in our culture, like many others, the way you live your life is the indicator of who you are .... not your words, but your actions ....we are taught very young not to speak words unless your mind, your heart and your vocal cords are in unison and working together .... easy concept but hard to do .... sorry I got a little off track on the above subject "mark of the beast" .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
 
Interesting discussion.

Not so long ago, I found a web site that presents progressive arguments about why Islam satisfies the prophecy on the Second Beast/False Prophet.

http://members.aol.com/AllahIslam/index.html

It even includes a demonstration on how Mohammed's name corresponds to the number 666. It's hard to believe that Islam could possibly have anything to do with the False Prophet, or even that Islam is evil at all.

Anyway, my point is that it's interesting that the number 666 can correspond to certain things we see in the world today. Some people associate 666 with ID cards and bar codes, or even mankind in general, that 6 is the evil number. Another idea is that what we have in the world today is derived from Babylonian culture, which used base 6 in its number system.

Mohammed's name in Hebrew can be written as (mem waw hey aleph mem yod dalet). This corresponds to the numbers 40, 6, 5, 1, 40, 10, 4, according to the Gematriot coding table listed at the following address.

http://bahai-library.com/books/apocalypse/appendixd.html

40 + 6 + 5 + 1 + 40 + 10 + 4 = 102

Now notice what happens when you reverse the order of the letters.

4 + 10 + 40 + 1 + 5 + 6 + 600 = 666

The "mem" becomes "final mem" and yields 600 because it is at the end.

So, why do we use the reversed order? The author of the web page "Testimony of Antichrist" http://members.aol.com/AllahIslam/index.html suggests on http://members.aol.com/AllahIslam/part4.html that the apostle John personally saw Mohammed's name and wrote it in Hebrew from right to left. However, because the Book of Revelation was written in Greek, and Greek is written from left to right, when John coded Mohammed's name, he followed the Greek way of thinking and coded the "mem" as a "final mem."

The theory goes that because John "thought in Greek" he coded the name as if it were in Greek, even though it was written in Hebrew.

If 666 "stands for the name of a man," then Mohammed is a candidate among those "would be False-Prophets." Ultimately, that would also mean that Islam as a religion would be "the mark of the Beast."

Whether or not Islam really fits the prophecy depends on what Islam represents and teaches. Could we say it's just a coincidence?

This is just one of many views on the number 666 in Revelation.
 
Saltmeister said:
Interesting discussion.

Not so long ago, I found a web site that presents progressive arguments about why Islam satisfies the prophecy on the Second Beast/False Prophet.

http://members.aol.com/AllahIslam/index.html

It even includes a demonstration on how Mohammed's name corresponds to the number 666. It's hard to believe that Islam could possibly have anything to do with the False Prophet, or even that Islam is evil at all.
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I feel that only an uninformed view of the benefits of Islam could hold that Islam is evil. We have far too little an appreciation of what Islam has on what we consider worthy even today.

I would strongly destinguish between the Qur'an, Muhammad, etc. and how Islam has been practiced through most of it's history. If you read the Qur'an on matters of unity among Islam and look at the fact of splits in the community, then there can only be a very dividing question in how it is practiced. At times Islam has had most incredible powerful positive effects in the world - the great leaps of science and understanding, the preservation of ancient wisdom (we owe substantially almost all we know of ancient Greece to the work of Moslem scholars,) indeed Islam's gifts almost compensates for the Dark Ages of Europe and eventually helped end it. And it did all this badly compromised with itself as a community, and all to often in it's leadership which is largely a history of assasination (which is actually a derivation of one of the dynasties of Arabian rulers) and wars of successorship.

Saltmeister said:
Anyway, my point is that it's interesting that the number 666 can correspond to certain things we see in the world today....


If 666 "stands for the name of a man," then Mohammed is a candidate among those "would be False-Prophets." Ultimately, that would also mean that Islam as a religion would be "the mark of the Beast."

Whether or not Islam really fits the prophecy depends on what Islam represents and teaches. Could we say it's just a coincidence?
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Most examinations of this question simply paint an evil glow upon the whole matter - but evil is not something itself - it exists in opposition and such a strongly contrasted presence can only happen in the strong presence of good. So I suggest that the situation must have a complexity - there must be good and evil and the hard part, as is always true with God's tests of us, is to seperate good from evil. Prophecies could warn a potential few, but it is largely in hindsight that people recognize how they were mislead, or saved from following the evil without making the necessary judgements themselves and feel humility, that is the service of prophecy.

The fact that 661 AD is such a marker in history for Islam, and that Jesus may well have been born 5BC, which leads to 666, could certainly fulfill these conditions - great good came from Islam, but great evil was done and had repercussions, and people now over 1000 years later could look back on the prophecy and wonder.
 
I'm going to jump in here with two feet and may be totally off base, but I'll jump anyway. I read this somewhere but didn't write the reference but in refernce to the Star of David "In sacred geometry the star tetrhedron - which is the Start of David - is a counter rotating field linked to the spirals of movement of conscousness from one level of reality to another. This is part of the Merkaba - rotation and movement of copnsciousness. Our consciousness is shifting into - or returning to - a higher harmonic. In our dreams and meditations we see this symbolically or metaphorically as the creation of a new Torah - Scroll - Book of Life." To me this represents what might be termed the "perfect balance". It is this state to which we must return and it is the balance between light and dark. In Biblical references I only see metaphors and parables, not literal meanings - and one must pass through the darkness to emerge in light. These are not references to evil or mass murder, they are simply references to a process of returning to the balance. To pass through the darkness is to run the spiralling internal energy through the body to the top of the head. In order to open our second sight (or what is known as the third eye) one must return to this state of perfect balance .... the two triangles in the Star of David represent the perfect balance of male and female energies. "If you want to single yourself out in the world so that secrets of the world and the mysteries of wisdom should be revealed to you .... study this teaching and be careful with it until the day of your departure. You will try to understand what is in your heart and keep silent, so that you will attain the beauty of the Merkavah." " What are the songs which one recites who wishes to behold the vision of the Merkavah, to descend safely and to ascend safely?" "Who is able to contemplate the seven palaces and behold the heaven of heavens and see the chamnber of chambers and say: 'I saw the chamber of God' " (the Merkavah also refers to the celestial throne and is described in Daniel 7,Isaiah 6, and Ezekiel l). And from The Emerald Tablets (writings by Thoth) "11th division "aye, draw ye a line from the great image I builded (Sphinx) to the apex of the (Great) pyramid, built as a gateway. Draw ye another in the same angle and direction. Dig ye and find that which I have hidden". "Man's search for understanding of the laws which regulate his life has been unending, yet always just beyond the veil which shields the higher planes from material man's vision the truth has existed, ready to be assimilated by those who enlarge their vision by turning inward, not outward, in their search. In the silence of material senses lies the key to the unveiling of wisdom." Even the references to the Mark of the Beast, the numbers such as 666 .... they are all references to a knowledge that lies just beneath the veil .... just out of reach but their shadows can be seen. In Hawaii we have a chant (the chant of creation) called the "Kumulipo" it literally means the "deep source" and all its sacred meaning is buried at least 4 levels deep. Even the Lakota (Native American tribe) medicine men say their sacred stories have 4 levels of meaning .... all four levels are true and those four truths are one truth. How deeply each of us understands the stories tells us about the level we have attained in our own lives. I believe it is so with the Bible, th Qu'ran, the Torah and many other ancient texts. What we are discussing here about the Mark of the Beast and the Cannaites are not the deepest levels of meaning .... I'm not even sure I can go there yet, but I sense we are beginning. In the continuing dialogue we will go deeper and deeper if we remove the walls that keep us apart. That is my take on this. me ke aloha pumehana, pohaikawahine
 
pohaikawahine said:
To my way of thinking (right or wrong) the problem with interpreting the Bible and other great books lies in the mind of man as we think now. We spend too much time looking at only the surface meaning or just below the surface and can't see the "sacred" or "inner meaning". The "end times" as I understand them is only a reference to the end of the way we are and a chance to the way we were meant to be .... in other words we must die to the way we are in order to become whole again and return to a world of balance where we can live in peace with each other and with our universe. I sometimes speak of the spiralling energy within the body (call it our DNA if you wish) but it is also symbolized in the concept of "dragon energy" (only a concept, not a real dragon) .... the seven headed dragon for example symbolizes the seven energy centers within the body, the seven pillars of wisdom does the same, the seven towers .... look at all the rituals that use the number seven .... these are only reminders of a process to move this energy to a place that will bring about revelations and visions. The seven seals of revelation are about the same energy centers. So what is the "mark of the beast" .... the mark on the forehead is a symbol (not an actual mark) or a metaphor for the process of enlightnment because it takes place in what is referred to as the "third eye" which is located in the center of the brain right about the level of the center of the forehead .... it is also known as the pineal gland .... and there is a Biblical reference that says something like seeing God face to face in that place called Pineal (can't remember exact spelling .... ) but everything is codes in symbols and concepts like the Mark of the Beast, the Lightening Bolt, even the Dragon on only symbols. The inner sanctum of the brain (which is also known as the altar, the cave, the location of the holy grail, etc.) must be bridged in order to enter that state of being which will take us to "paradise, the promised land, eden" etc. Just my thought to share. It is hard to let go of long held on to beliefs that have been deeply buried in our minds, but when you are able to make that shift in focus you will find the answer to "what is freedom" because once found it can never be taken away again unless you give it away. We fight wars when we can live together in peace and harmony. he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
Click to expand...

Hi pohaikawahine,

Cannot add much to that except that I agree!!!

Kelcie:)
 
pohaikawahine said:
we are taught very young not to speak words unless your mind, your heart and your vocal cords are in unison and working together .... easy concept but hard to do ....
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Hi again pohaikawahine,

We too are taught the same things, it is especially hard when you are a overactive and curious child.;)

We have much in common.
Kelcie:)
 
aloha e kelcie .... yes, as children many of us are overactive and curious (I'm still very curious even at my age) .... but children have not much negative thought yet and their hearts are filled with love, so what comes out of their mouths when they speak is filtered by their beautiful souls .... it is us, as adults, that have to work harder at this concept of weaving the heart, mind and vocal cords in a net of harmony ....


I looked at my posting again on the 'mark of the beast' and realized it was a little convoluted and not as clear as it could have been .... the bottom line is that i believe the 'mark of the beast' is not about anything evil, but only a metaphor for something deeper. There are two subjects that I have spent some time on trying to unravel their meanings and they have been tough .... one is the 'mark of the beast' and the other 'an eye for an eye' .... this whole dialogue makes me want to go back and do some further thinking and study on both subjects .... me ke aloha pumehana, pohaikawahine
 
It is my belief as one of JW that the two -horned wild beast in revelation 13;11-13is a partner-ship of two political powers this is what the two horns represent. it is coming out of the earth, not out of the sea.so it is coming from satans already established earthly system .so it must be a world power already existing, that takes on a significant role in the Lords day.what can it be?it is the Anglo-American world power.the same as the seventh head of the first wild beast.but in a special role it is like a lamb because it suggests that it is inoffensive but it speaks as a dragon if you dont agree with it. with pressure and threats if its rulership is not accepted.it has promoted nationalistic devisions and hatreds that add up to worshiping the beast.but it has not encouraged submission to Gods kingdom under the rule of the lamb of God jesus christ .but rather to the interests of satan the great dragon
 
wow that is scarey .... the seven headed dragon in many ancient cultures is seen as a symbol of wisdom .... it is a symbol of the divine creator of all things and was one of the most sacred of sacred symbols .... how interesting that it could become something seen as satan .... this, to me, is why is can be difficult to discuss religious differences, I prefer to discuss the inner meaning of symbols across all cultures and religions .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine
 
pohaikawahine said:
wow that is scarey .... the seven headed dragon in many ancient cultures is seen as a symbol of wisdom .... it is a symbol of the divine creator of all things and was one of the most sacred of sacred symbols .... how interesting that it could become something seen as satan .... this, to me, is why is can be difficult to discuss religious differences, I prefer to discuss the inner meaning of symbols across all cultures and religions .... aloha nui, pohaikawahine
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the book of revelation is pertaining to our day rev 1;1
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John .it is not all doom and gloom it has a marvoulous hope for the earth and those who apply themselves. so its not scary i promise . some people focus on the doom and gloom but it is full of hope yes numbers in the book of revelation can be symbolic ,and seven signifies devinely determined completness,as to Jehovahs purposes or to satans ...

 
mee said:
the book of revelation is pertaining to our day rev 1;1
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John .it is not all doom and gloom it has a marvoulous hope for the earth and those who apply themselves. so its not scary i promise . some people focus on the doom and gloom but it is full of hope yes numbers in the book of revelation can be symbolic ,and seven signifies devinely determined completness,as to Jehovahs purposes or to satans ...
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yes mee .... I see the symbols as signs of hope and not doom and gloom. The number seven does reflect the completion of a cycle and I see its symbol in the book of revelation as the opening of the seven seals meaning the opening of the seven energy centers within the body. When these seven energy centers are opened by the reuniting of the twelve (pairs of cranial nerves),the path to revelations is open and free. Everyone has the capability of doing this and the reference to 144,000 "chosen ones" is related to the spiralling energy within the body (our own DNA). I do not believe in a 'satan' but I do believe that we have a lot of emotional baggage to overcome in order to open those seven seals. The "mark of the beast" does not have negative connotations to me, it is only a symbol of something more ancient. he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
 
pohaikawahine said:
yes mee .... I see the symbols as signs of hope and not doom and gloom.... I do not believe in a 'satan' but I do believe that we have a lot of emotional baggage to overcome in order to open those seven seals. The "mark of the beast" does not have negative connotations to me, it is only a symbol of something more ancient. he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine
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There are certainly other references and circumstances one could examine beasts or whatever numbers and therein gleam positive spiritual values. But human history is made of more suffering than any page could cover, and refering to that aspect of history is perfectly possible. Looking at the circumstances of these ideas specifically, *this* beast, one sees good people suffering too long, widespread suffering through war, chastisement for wandering far from truth, etc. etc. To not see this is to not read what *is* said, to supplant what is testified with what one speculates. But to note only the suffering is as well not to witness what is meant - suffering as a result of this beast is not pointless, rather it shall end, and elsewhere it is said "these ruinous wars shall pass". So yes, there is hope.

Of course, just because someone says something is not in and of itself enough to prove to anyone anything - one must decide for oneself what one beleives. This is the way things are. But there is an essential difference between believing something and it being true whether one beleives it or not. There is in fact, silliness as well as profound truth.
 
my guess so far on the mark of the beast, although i do reserve the right to change my mind at a later time :)

i would say that the mark of the beast is a combination of the CE Mark currently used in the european union to control trade and its desire to form a cashless society free from counterfeit now that the euro is the EU's currency. EU is currently looking into with veripay and visa europe and the european bank.
 
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