Nogodnomasters
Well-Known Member
Quahom1 said:If I didn't know you, I'd almost accept this. But since you are crasher (denounce anything God including Christ), I take what is said with a grain of salt.
However, the NT states that all fall short of the Glory of God. And the OT insists that there will be a "messiah", providing salvation for man.
Why would man need to be saved, unless he is in peril? Why would the OT convey the "sins" of the father unto his children, to the third and fourth generations no less?
Original sin, is the first time that man fell out of balance with God. In otherwords, man disagreed and then acted upon that disagreement. The sin wasn't disagreeing, it was the deliberate act fueled by the disagreement.
In the NT, we are told that the disagreement itself is sin (which I have a serious problem with). None the less, it means that even if no outward sin is committed, an inward one has been, therefore all fall short.
Your comment that there is nothing original in the bible is fact?...or your point of view?
Ancient cultures? They are all ancient. Egypt, Sumeria, and the Hebrews (semites).
The only "sin" I could possibly see sex being, is with a non mate, or with a mate wherein conception of a child was required (for what ever reasons), and seed was deliberately prevented from completing that conception. The "sex" would not be the sin. The thinking for having "sex" a certain way might be the sin. One would be for the continued Glory of God, and the other, for self gratification, hence no Glory to God, hence sin.
Interesting point about the "Adam and Eve" cylinder...perhaps you could expound on this more?
v/r
Q
I am not a crasher. The rules for the thread claim discussion must be within the confines of religious belief. It does not exclude people who believe otherwise, just non-religious posting.
The Jews did not look for a messiah for salvation. The messiah was to lead them against an overthrow of the Greco-Roman empire. The Jews had annual rituals for the forgiveness of sins. One community used a scape goat. The sins were transferred to a goat and the goat was sacrificed. Judaism has never nor still do they look for a messiah for forgiveness of sins. This most likely was a result of syncretism. Christianity incoporated many neoplatonic ideas into their religion via Paul. Other Greek ideas such as the logos (the word) appear in John. Philio of Alexandria attempted to change Judaism by explaining OT writings in light of Greek theology. He also helped finance the Roman army.
The sex idea is mentioned by Rabbis in the midrash. It is also good comparative religion when we look at other ancient texts.
The word "original" is not in any Bible concordance. I just used that fact as a pun.
The Adam and Eve cylinder seal: Here is a link: http://www.greatcommission.com/london/2003017.jpg
There is a man and a woman sitting on either side of a date palm. There is a serpent on each side of the seal.
truthseeker said:
Hi Truthseeker,
The tree of knowledge of good and evil for me is metaphor for the “mind” the mind that houses the ego. The metaphor for the ego in reference to the above passage is the serpent. The mind has the ability to do what bananabrain refers to and that is; the ability to act based on your free will.
The fruits the tree brings forth are the thoughts the ideas of the mind and the actions that usually result from these thoughts and ideas. We can bear good or evil fruits but that decision remains with the bearer of these fruits.
Dwelling in GODs presence was Adam and Eves original state of being. By choosing to listen to her ego (the serpent) and partake of the fruits of the mind. Eve experienced a spiritual death as Bandit has said. A shutting down if you will of her awareness of GOD. Adams choice to partake in Eve’s fruit was also of the mind resulting in him losing his awareness also.
The suffering that this spiritual death brings is the suffering that is caused by the mind. The passions of the ego that are not fulfilled, that therefore binds us to the things of this world and to the things of our minds. The bible states clearly how we should rid ourselves of these passions. If our desires are not fulfilled we can suffer greatly depending on what desire has not been fulfilled but we suffer all the same if we have not learned how to rise above the mind.
Jesus’ journey on this earth was to demonstrate to humankind that you could indeed overcome sin. (Which in this instance is the mind). “He died for our sins” reinforces this level of understanding. His quote “I am capable of great things but you are capable of greater” (or something like that) tells us that we are just as capable of doing what he did if not greater.
We continue to be affected by the “original sin” (my understanding) today largely because man has chosen not to let go of the passions of the mind. What we teach our children is therefore teaching them the original sin (passions of the mind) and the cycle continues.
For sure the mind is part of who we are and was part of Adam and Eve, the usage of it however is different when you dwell in the presence of GOD.
Thats just my level of understanding it at the moment
Kelcie
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Its literal to me. The only time the bible is not literal is when they use words describing it as being like something else. Ive always believed that and noone has ever been able to show me proof otherwise.
Kelcie those that believe Jesus is God.. could never allow the idea that we could be greater than Him. He set Himself as an example to us as to how we should be and proved the impossiblity of it by shedding His blood on the cross.. Its the greatest of sacrifices not to be trivialized by making it an ego thing.
I am curious where you get that quote about us being capable of being greater...Its not something that I think I have read in my bible.
Kelcie those that believe Jesus is God.. could never allow the idea that we could be greater than Him. He set Himself as an example to us as to how we should be and proved the impossiblity of it by shedding His blood on the cross.. Its the greatest of sacrifices not to be trivialized by making it an ego thing.
I am curious where you get that quote about us being capable of being greater...Its not something that I think I have read in my bible.
Hi Faithfulservant,
For me he indeed set himself as an example. For me the ego is not trivial. Jesus overcome the physical limitations that man of those times thought was impossible. He demonstrated the impossible was possible. These perceived limitations are what the ego lead us to believe. He rose above it and gave us clues as to how we get rid of it. Hate, jealousy,greed, Lust, desire in all its different shades (being part of the ego as we know it today) needed to be eradicated.
I realize that anyone who takes the Bible literally will beg to differ on my view, but this is my personal understanding that I wish to share.
Did that make my view a little bit clearer?
Kelcie
I agree if they thought that Jesus was God they would never allow the idea, However Jesus was the son of God, therefore an offspring as we are, in human form subject to the same laws of gravity and the like as we are. He wasnt saying we could be greater than God but greater than him as a human being. Meaning depending on what we received from God (our manner of love)we could do greater things if God so intends us to.Faithfulservant said:
Just need a little clarification. Jesus set himself has an example to us as how we should be and then showed us it was impossible? Maybe I am reading it wrong sorry.
For me he indeed set himself as an example. For me the ego is not trivial. Jesus overcome the physical limitations that man of those times thought was impossible. He demonstrated the impossible was possible. These perceived limitations are what the ego lead us to believe. He rose above it and gave us clues as to how we get rid of it. Hate, jealousy,greed, Lust, desire in all its different shades (being part of the ego as we know it today) needed to be eradicated.
I will have to get back to you on that passage, I dont memorize where to find it just the message that I get from it. But Im sure someone here will know what passage I am refering to. If I find it before they do I will post it here.
I realize that anyone who takes the Bible literally will beg to differ on my view, but this is my personal understanding that I wish to share.
Did that make my view a little bit clearer?
Kelcie
Hi Faithfulservant
I couldnt edit my post for some reason, however, I found the passage I was refering to on the net.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John Darby Synopsis extract
He had declared the name of the Father; and if they were unable to see the Father in Him, or to be convinced of it by His words, they ought to have known it by His works; for the Father who dwelt in Him-He it was who did the works. This depended on His own Person, being still in the world; but a striking proof was connected with His departure. After He was gone, they would do even greater works than He did, because they should act in connection with His greater nearness to the Father. This was requisite to His glory. It was even unlimited. He placed them in immediate connection with the Father by the power of His work and of His name; and whatsoever they should ask the Father in His name, Christ Himself would do it for them. Their request should be heard and granted by the Father-shewing what nearness He had acquired for them; and He (Christ) would do all they should ask. For the power of the Son was not, and could not be, wanting to the Father's will: there was no limit to His power.
Perhaps the way I said it did not make sense thats why you couldnt remember it sorry about that. (I always say it how I understand it)
Kelcie
Faithfulservant said:
I couldnt edit my post for some reason, however, I found the passage I was refering to on the net.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John Darby Synopsis extract
He had declared the name of the Father; and if they were unable to see the Father in Him, or to be convinced of it by His words, they ought to have known it by His works; for the Father who dwelt in Him-He it was who did the works. This depended on His own Person, being still in the world; but a striking proof was connected with His departure. After He was gone, they would do even greater works than He did, because they should act in connection with His greater nearness to the Father. This was requisite to His glory. It was even unlimited. He placed them in immediate connection with the Father by the power of His work and of His name; and whatsoever they should ask the Father in His name, Christ Himself would do it for them. Their request should be heard and granted by the Father-shewing what nearness He had acquired for them; and He (Christ) would do all they should ask. For the power of the Son was not, and could not be, wanting to the Father's will: there was no limit to His power.
Perhaps the way I said it did not make sense thats why you couldnt remember it sorry about that.
(I always say it how I understand it) Kelcie
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Ok I understand now.. we can do greater things because He ascended to the Father and He works in us.. Yes I agree on that point.
Jesus set Himself as an example to us.. He prayed to the Father.. He was sinless...He was baptized.. He studied scripture... the list goes on.. but the fact that He chose to die on the cross for the sins of the world not just the sins of those in His time but the sins of those in our current time.. shows that we cannot live a sinless life. That He HAD to die on the cross in order for us to achieve a state of righteousness so that we in fact could ascend to the Father as well.
Jesus was fully man and fully God. It was not impossible for Him to acheive these things.
This is a Christian forum and most of us do take the bible literally. Thanks for sharing though.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Faithfulservant said:
Hi Faithfulservant and Kelcie (welcome to CR, by the way
),Just to clarify, and in all gentleness, one does not need to take the bible in a single, literal-factual way to be a Christian, inside or outside CR.
peace,
lunamoth
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Just wary of another SS...my apologies.
Kelcie said:Hi Faithfulservant,
What is an SS? Would you mind sharing?
Kelcie
Let's just say there was a member that had a force of will, a strong personal belief, and insistence that it be shared with all to the point of alienating many of the members of CR (many left because of it, unfortunately).
v/r
Q
Quahom1 said:
Hi Quaholm1,
Thanks for clarifying.
I must apologize if I have come across like this SS person. My intention is not to force my will, or my personal beliefs on anyone. I understand that each are at their own level of understanding which I thought was clear in most of my posts, not only in this thread but others. Like most on the CR I am here to learn more. I make no claims that my level of understanding is the "ultimate understanding". If I share it is in the hope that I too can gain more insight from other peoples view or rebuttals!
However if this is the way I have been perceived and will be perceived, there is not much I can do about it except refrain from sharing my views.
Thanks again
Kelcie
Call it a concerned thought expressed out loud. I see nothing wrong here. We are simply going through a period of re-stablizing.
I don't know if you are familiar with the "Canary in the coal mine" concept?
Some of us are such hardened miners, that we don't notice a change in the air, but the most sensitive of nature's "sensors" (the canary), is. So we look to the canary to warn us when things are beginning to change.
We cannot isolate various concepts of Christianity, as that would defeat the very purpose of CR. But we must have consideration for others' sensibilities, considering that within the Christian world, there is a plethora of subtle differences that we must respect.
If you notice...Christianity is the hottest thing going on in "town" here, and for good reason. We have lot's of ideas and beliefs we want to share. And we tend to get frustrated when "others" don't get it (just look at some of my posts).
Your thoughts are most welcome here, as are others.
v/r
Q
Quahom1 said:Call it a concerned thought expressed out loud. I see nothing wrong here. We are simply going through a period of re-stablizing.
I don't know if you are familiar with the "Canary in the coal mine" concept?
Some of us are such hardened miners, that we don't notice a change in the air, but the most sensitive of nature's "sensors" (the canary), is. So we look to the canary to warn us when things are beginning to change.
We cannot isolate various concepts of Christianity, as that would defeat the very purpose of CR. But we must have consideration for others' sensibilities, considering that within the Christian world, there is a plethora of subtle differences that we must respect.
If you notice...Christianity is the hottest thing going on in "town" here, and for good reason. We have lot's of ideas and beliefs we want to share. And we tend to get frustrated when "others" don't get it (just look at some of my posts).
Your thoughts are most welcome here, as are others.
Hi Quaholm1,
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
I have gained a greater understanding from it.
Kelcie
T
truthseeker
Guest
Thank You for this lively discussion.
Welcome to CR, Kelcie. Your thoughts on this matter is much appreciated and a bit enlightening as well.
I don't take every passage in the bible literally, hence the intended deeper understanding of Genesis 3:3-4. I believe the bible to be true, told from the perspective of the Isrealites. Furthermore, I believe in "you are what you eat" - in terms of Jesus I believe that God was with him so in that sense he was God but to say that Jesus was God means to me that God is Jesus - being monotheistic and all... But I've been through this trinity issue before.
Insofar as my understanding of the whole thing, I agree. Jesus is savior of those of us that need to be saved, including those who were enlightened by him during his time on earth. We fall deeply in love with Jesus' love message but don't want to acknowledge, perhaps by pride, that it is that love message that brings us back to feeling human after a long day of feeling like a robot. Jesus' message provokes feeling that ascends the spirit beyond the physical realm - That is what the message did for Paul. The message leaves us so inspired in love that we are willing to fight tooth and nail to keep that inspiration alive - so be it. But Jesus was not Christian. Nor were the 12 Disciples, or Paul, Timothy, or Mary Magdelene. They were Hebrews separated from Isreal living under the rule of the Roman Empire. Things were pretty hectic during that time. So much separation and need to revolutionize. Anyhow, a message of love and unity did well and those who heard wanted to keep the message alive. If Jesus is your messiah, cool. He certainly is mine. But different cultures need different methods of being saved and Jesus isn't Captain Save 'Em for everybody. Old Testament and New Testament - how vain is that?
Beautifully stated. Easier understood than done though. Say, like when you are in a love relationship with a person and though you are still in touch with God, it's not as intense as it used to be. That would be an obvious distancing of oneself from God. How do you balance something like that?
Welcome to CR, Kelcie. Your thoughts on this matter is much appreciated and a bit enlightening as well.
I don't take every passage in the bible literally, hence the intended deeper understanding of Genesis 3:3-4. I believe the bible to be true, told from the perspective of the Isrealites. Furthermore, I believe in "you are what you eat" - in terms of Jesus I believe that God was with him so in that sense he was God but to say that Jesus was God means to me that God is Jesus - being monotheistic and all... But I've been through this trinity issue before.
Nogodnomasters said:
Insofar as my understanding of the whole thing, I agree. Jesus is savior of those of us that need to be saved, including those who were enlightened by him during his time on earth. We fall deeply in love with Jesus' love message but don't want to acknowledge, perhaps by pride, that it is that love message that brings us back to feeling human after a long day of feeling like a robot. Jesus' message provokes feeling that ascends the spirit beyond the physical realm - That is what the message did for Paul. The message leaves us so inspired in love that we are willing to fight tooth and nail to keep that inspiration alive - so be it. But Jesus was not Christian. Nor were the 12 Disciples, or Paul, Timothy, or Mary Magdelene. They were Hebrews separated from Isreal living under the rule of the Roman Empire. Things were pretty hectic during that time. So much separation and need to revolutionize. Anyhow, a message of love and unity did well and those who heard wanted to keep the message alive. If Jesus is your messiah, cool.
He certainly is mine. But different cultures need different methods of being saved and Jesus isn't Captain Save 'Em for everybody. Old Testament and New Testament - how vain is that?Kelcie said:
Beautifully stated. Easier understood than done though. Say, like when you are in a love relationship with a person and though you are still in touch with God, it's not as intense as it used to be. That would be an obvious distancing of oneself from God. How do you balance something like that?
truthseeker said:
HI truthseeker,
Thank you for your warm welcome and appreciation.
Agreed, perhaps this is because we become more familiar with the feelings of GOD just as we do in love relationships. In love relationships at the beginning there is intense feelings of excitement and love but as they evolve I dont think it is too much distancing but more that it is less intense because of the familiarity of the other persons being. The awe struckness has gone and you are more than likely deeper in love then you were on the outset. At least I hope this is true of most love relationships.
Kelcie
T
truthseeker
Guest
Kelcie said:Agreed, perhaps this is because we become more familiar with the feelings of GOD just as we do in love relationships. In love relationships at the beginning there is intense feelings of excitement and love but as they evolve I dont think it is too much distancing but more that it is less intense because of the familiarity of the other persons being. The awe struckness has gone and you are more than likely deeper in love then you were on the outset. At least I hope this is true of most love relationships.
Beautifully said, Kelcie. I hope this is true in my love relationship with God. To think that I have become one with God and my significant other all at the same time is a healing thought. I think of it very similiar to one looking for God when God is all around us. Like God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day and yet, God is the Garden.
G
ghufranakahmad
Guest
Dear Member,truthseeker said:
I will rather comment on the first three chapters of the Genesis as the verses are interconnected.
This book of the Bible explains as to how the universe was created by God. I understand, as if the whole universe was wrapped up over the right hand of God almighty and when He ordered everything started unfolding and shaping up according to the scheme of things in His All-Wise mind. In the beginning the Word was with Him and when commanded with his Word the creation started. Without his word this process would have not started as every thing but obeys Him. Like the perfect God his words and creation was perfect having no contradictions and defects.
This has been narrated in a metaphor in the Bible for our understanding the phenomenon of creation, in which schemes of things have been explained for our guidance. It explains not only the physical outer phenomenon but its inner also. It explains as to how everything got evolved without hurry, stage by stage, towards the perfection as per blueprint and intelligent observation of the Creator. This has to be kept in mind.
The key verses from which we decipher this mystery are hidden in the text, sometimes between the lines:-
1.26(KJV) “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
This point has been repeated twice in the next verse(1.27 ) to emphasize that it is a key verse and also that things have been explained in metaphors for our understanding. God is not a physical being; rather He has created everything physical including man. We recognize Him from his attributes
2.9(KJV) “And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”
2.16(KJV) “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat.”
2.17(KJV) “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” and also verse 3.21
· It is further confirmed that it is a metaphor, since there is no physical tree neither found in this world nor mentioned in this or any previous chapter of the Book of Genesis we are contemplating on.
· “In the midst of the garden” this means it is a focal point, a centre point in the scheme of creation. There are three types of creation as per scheme of life, first the angels who obey God and incite man for good things, second-the devils/ Satan- who have been made by God to incite man for doing bad things and incite him to disobey, third-Man who can perform good things and bad things, can obey or disobey God by his own free will. If man does good things he will be rewarded by God more than the Angels, and if he does bad things he will be rewarded accordingly only if he repents and asks forgiveness from God then of course man is forgiven. This is the core of the scheme of creation.
Everything in the Garden was made accessible for Man by God.
· “Tree of the knowledge of good and evil” knowledge has been mentioned as a tree very truly having so many branches like that is today and growing day by day and can be best presented in an organogram, and the quality bestowed by God to man to distinguish good from evil, or right from wrong which is a unique quality gifted to man with which man climbs the ladder of progress.
· In fact acquirement of knowledge had already been started by man as a mercy from God mentioned in earlier verses when Adam started naming animals and other things and it was approved by God. In fact that was done by Revelation, man was taught language by God through revelation and man started learning it quickly. God’s dialogues with man have been mentioned in these chapters which clearly indicate this phenomenon; else man would have neither gained knowledge nor could store the knowledge so essential for his progress and would have remained ignorant and uncivilized. As I can understand from it, man was also revealed a code of ethics ,as to what acts man was ought to perform and what acts was he to abstain from, that was to be observed by him and his fellow human beings for his cultural ,moral and spiritual uplift.
· “Serpent” is Satan or devil which has been described here more clever than any beast of the field which God had made, otherwise, the serpent neither talks to the human beings nor it can be established that serpent is the cleverest animal, so it is definitely Satan who incited Eve or Adam on doing something which on the face of it looked beneficial, may be it was a pagan tribe and they were forbidden to have close contacts with them lest they lose their sublime moral behavior which was taught to them by God. Sometimes Satan pleads within us and a thing which hitherto looked righteous when we act upon turn out to be harmful and invites displeasure of our God.
· 3.4(KJV) “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.”
Here it is mentioned that Satan said if you eat from the tree you will not surely die. God had told that if you will eat from the tree you will surely die which did not actually happen. Looks as if Satan knew more than God! This can never be. God meant you will loose your knowledge or cultural advancement if you do what has been forbidden. God is All-Knowing, when he had created man on his image He has given a taste of his attributes to man, then how can he forbid man from gaining knowledge. What is this book Genesis for? Surely, it is to increase man’s knowledge. There is no contradiction in God or in His attributes. When a man has no contradictions in him he becomes a best man.
When God knows good from evil and it is one of His attributes then how could He prohibit man from acquiring this attribute whom He has created on his image. This is simply misunderstood. God’s attributes don’t change.
· Since, the creation of universe started and evolved with the command of God’s word, and without it the same would have not shaped up as mentioned in the Genesis, the physical laws of the universe and the word of God are from the same source that is God, hence the same cannot have any contradictions, if there seem to be one then either the physical laws have been misunderstood or the word of God have been misunderstood. As with contradictory physical laws, the universe would get blown up likewise with contradictory moral & spiritual laws the whole moral and spiritual edifice will be ruined.
· 3.14(KJV) “And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.”
The Satan has been cursed, i.e. Satan has been told that he will always remain afar from the path of God and so also his followers, with the punishment, “upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life”. This means those who follow him their total effort of life being materialistic, they only craving for worldly things having no part in spiritual things, hence they will get no reward in the hereafter, as they have not developed their spiritual tastes having only elongated their worldly desires so shall be the fruits of their efforts, they will not be in the company of God neither in this world nor in the hereafter. Satan and those who follow him will neither become close friends of God in this world nor in the hereafter.
· 3.15(KJV) “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
Satan has been told that now on man who wants to attain closeness of God, they shall have to treat Satan as their open enemy and would have to oppose Satan tooth and nail. Other curses mentioned in the chapter are likewise symbolic and considered as such since the painful delivery of woman etc continues unchecked to date even for those who consider that their sins have been delivered off. This also shows that it is all symbolic.
· 3.21(KJV) “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”
With sins man gets naked (only symbolically) and when man realizes that with mistake he got involved in sins, he repents, feels remorseful, weeps with agony and asks forgiveness from God since righteous man cannot displease God, and man asks from God to provide covering against his sins, begs from God His shelter from Satan and a shield from the same. It is God’s attribute to listen to the prayers of faulting persons who repent and earnestly want to correct their ways, our All-Merciful God accepts such prayers. Likewise happened at that time and God provided Adam and Eve with coats of skins (only symbolic) and clothed them rather rewarded them for beseeching His friendship and mercy again.
· 3.22(KJV) “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.”
In fact Adam and Eve were already in the Lasting Garden and man or any-other-being in the Universe is at His mercy and dependent on Him forever. Man cannot harm God or make Him helpless what to speak of his attaining eternity with God, the verse is simply misunderstood. Rather God appreciates & encourages of a man to do good deeds and enter the Lasting Garden again. This is also best understood when considered as symbolic.
The narration of Bible is so interesting, it is a good scripture and attracts anyone one who happen to read it, but it should neither be considered a book of physics nor checked accordingly. We have to decipher its internal meaning for our guidance and enjoy it.
This is what I understand from the book; anyone not in line with me should not worry and can go on believing the way one wants. This is also in accordance with the scheme of life as God does not wants compulsion in faith and wants one to believe in Him with his sole heart and soul and wisdom. However, any comments are welcome.