Bible inspired by God or just written by man?

[Quahom1]

You should recall that in the story of Jericho, a woman named Rahab confessed her belief that the God of Israel was not only the Supreme God, but also the only holy and good God there was.

Not all Canaanites were ignorant. Rahab knew about God and acted on her knowledge of what was the truth and what was good. She was raised a pagan and heathen, born in a world of demon worship, and yet she took the chance to be with God's people. God didn't even have to open the heavens and show her His blinding glory.

Women were never "nephilim" as far as I can find. But they were taken by Nephilim to be the wives, concubines and offspring bearers. Doesn't mean that women of Cannaan, didn't believe in God at all (probably knew beyond the shadow of a doubt, when taking into consideration the company they were forced to keep).

As I said, God shouldn't need to reveal Himself explicitly. If people don't listen to God there's no point. It would be nice if we could be obedient even if we can't see Him!!!! Many good people have done that, even though they never have seen God.

Then how would we know there is a God, unless He reveals Himself in some way/form/or fashion? I believe He must (and does) reveal Himself to us. That is what get's us going after Him...

Moreover, your chance to be one of God's people doesn't end in physical death. Remember that Christ preached to the world of the dead. Those who had never heard of the Christian Gospel were raised to life in heaven because they were destined to be God's people.

I agree on this point, with only one tiny exception. Those who have heard of the Lord but ignore the message, might have a problem in the hereafter...

The Ten Commandments says "do not murder" but as I said killing isn't murder if it doesn't involve hatred. The Israelites didn't hate the Canaanites. Ritual cleansing does not involve hatred. It wasn't something racist.

Surely you have overlooked certain things here. "Hit men" kill for no reason save their job. It is nothing personal...Does that mean they did not commit murder? Killing isn't murder if one is at war with another nation. Doesn't make it right, but it is a sanctioned action that all nations in general agree to.

Lately it isn't nations, but rather "entities" who are conducting war. This in and of itself makes them "mini nations", subject to the consequenses of "War".

Exactly what point are you making here? It seems to me that you're just re-affirming what I said. The Jewish and Christian faiths are the same religion. We simply say "Jewish" to refer to the Mosaic Law and "Christian" for the Christian Gospel. It's part of one single story. The Jewish faith is not "part of" the Christian faith. The two "faiths" are complements of each other. It's rather like Yin and Yang. You can't have the Law without the Gospel to fulfill it. On the other hand, if there is no Law, there's no point having a Gospel.

Interesting point. However I do not think the Jews would agree with you, however the the Christians might/could.

Yes, that's besides the point, but I think you should realise it's murder that's wrong, but not killing. What about euthanasia? Is euthanasia wrong? Is it wrong to kill terrorists or people who are a threat to the country?

Killing the feeble or the elderly, by deliberate attempt is WRONG. That is murder in the first degree. IF there are no feelings toward the victim, then it is doubly wrong.

The Pope is not the Head of the Church. It's Christ that's the Head. The Pope is the head of a political system that considers itself Christ's Church. The Christian Gospel is a message. It was never supposed to be about a political system. Christians are messengers of this Gospel.

Oh, as much as would love to agree with you on this point (I'm gonna kick myself for this later), the Pope IS the head of the church, here on earth. Jesus is head of the "church" as in people of His flock. The Pope is head of the religious organization and representitive of Jesus here on earth, while Jesus is not physically present. Jesus is head of the Pope as well.

just my thought.

v/r

Q

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Yes Saltmeister, I accept that your knowledge of the Bible is probably a bit better than mine, although I do think I have read considerably more than the average man on the street. Other than that I really dont know where you are coming from with all of this.

The Ten Commandments says "do not murder"

Not in any of the Bibles in my house, they all say

"Thou shalt not kill"

Is euthanasia wrong? Is it wrong to kill terrorists or people who are a threat to the country?

Well I would say that the death penalty is wrong and involuntary euthanasia is wrong. Others may disagree, but it all comes down to "thou shalt not kill." There's no small print and no extenuating circumstances.

Never a good thing? If your country was invaded, would you not fight back?

Perhaps I would be forced to kill, but that would not make it a good deed.


When I said that maybe you should read more of the bible, I thought that you were admitting to not knowing the parts which we were discussing, I meant no offense.

My comment on the Pope was intended to demonstrate that children who are raised with evil ideologies can turn out to be good, god fearing people.


I would like to know, in clear, deliberate words, do you think that Genocide can be justified on religious grounds?

 

[Quahom1]

Not in any of the Bibles in my house, they all say

"Thou shalt not kill"

They also have explicit instructions on how to destroy an enemy of God, which involves killing...Read Joshua, and you will find that you are in error with your statement above. You are I think trying to use the term "Kill" as for the taking of any life. That is not how God wrote the commandment. It reads "Thou shalt not commit murder". Big difference in God's eyes. NOTE: read the literal translation for this commandment...

The OT also states "an eye for an eye", a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life...that was the law of the land and people.

Well I would say that the death penalty is wrong and involuntary euthanasia is wrong. Others may disagree, but it all comes down to "thou shalt not kill." There's no small print and no extenuating circumstances.

The death penalty is right, if the party dying is truly guilty of the attrocities charged against him/her. Again, Joshua was ordered by God to "kill" for lesser crimes.

Perhaps I would be forced to kill, but that would not make it a good deed.

Depends on the eye of the beholder...to the "victim" you might have saved, it was a good deed, indeed...

My comment on the Pope was intended to demonstrate that children who are raised with evil ideologies can turn out to be good, god fearing people.

In other words, despite the "church" people can find grace?

I would like to know, in clear, deliberate words, do you think that Genocide can be justified on religious grounds?[/

No, not on any grounds.

v/r

Q

 

[Saltmeister]

Reality, Logic and Superstitious Nonsense

Do you really believe that Genocide can be justified by religion?

You say it's genocide. I said it was ritual cleansing. These aren't the same thing. Ritual cleansing isn't ethnic cleansing. Was the killing wrong? Right and wrong depend on the reality you live in.

You may call ritual cleansing "superstitious nonsense," but that depends on what your reality is.

People around the whole world have different views on what is "moral" and "immoral." We've all developed different systems of thought on this topic. As far as I know, whatever they are, it always depends on what reality you live in. We've all developed some kind of "moral code" to live by.

The God of the Bible seems like a mass murderer.

Then again, what's the point of life? Existence here is temporal. We are born, and a little while later we die. You may say that we're supposed to make the most of our lives here on earth, but if God exists then the next life is just as important.

So what's my point here? I think we would have to open up the discussion a little bit. From my point of view, religion is about physical and spiritual. If you say that it's genocode, you're neglecting the spiritual dimension.

For example, there's life after death. I could argue that the Canaanites simply passed into another world. You may consider that a stupid argument, but then we still have to answer the critical question:

What is reality?

Simply saying it's genocide and that the afterlife is a bad argument doesn't work. If you believe in afterlife, you're contradicting yourself.

State your reality. Physical and spiritual.

Moral Codes
Some religions, and I don't know if it's Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism or whatever, they teach that it's "wrong" to tread on and kill any kind of life form, even the lowest life forms like insects and spiders.

Some religions are vegetarian and are against the eating of meat, especially pork.

Islam teaches that women, when not properly covered, are a source of corruption and must veil themselves. You must pray five times a day.

Judaism teaches that the Sabbath must be observed at all times, otherwise you cease to be one of God's people.

The Catholic Church says you must observe confession. If you leave the Catholic Church, even for another denomination you are no longer Christian.

Recently in Western societies we've had debates on "religious issues" like stem-cell research, abortion, homosexuality, sex before marriage, modesty and nudity, etc.

Western society teaches that human rights is the highest tenet. Children are naive and innocent and must be treated well. Slavery is evil.

Ok, what's this got to do with the God of the Bible being or not being a "murderer?"

Look at all the different views people have on what is right and wrong. I don't believe it's a matter of whose "moral code" is better or more right than the others.

Also, have you ever wondered, where is God in all this?

Even in a modern society we can't even agree with what's right and wrong because we don't even believe in the same reality.

You may say that killing the Canaanites is genocide, but that's only because you also believe it's superstitious nonsense. In other words, to you it's purely physical, carnal and political. You believe it's genocide because you don't believe in the concept of ritual cleanliness.

That's another thing -- ritual cleanliness is a prevalent theme in the Bible, Old and New Testaments.

I won't pretend to be a theologian, but I will simply state my reality. Only then can you understand my way of thinking.

Human Nature, Good and Evil and Rituals
To understand right and wrong, we have to understand human nature. What constitutes a person's character or personality? Instincts. We all have instincts. These are things we do naturally. Good instincts (virtues) are things like love, kindness, generosity and humility. Evil instincts (vices) are things like hatred, arrogance, greed, lust, selfishness, etc.

"Moral codes" judge people on their actions, but that's not the way it works. God judges people by the good and evil instincts they follow. Morality comes from our good instincts and immorality comes from our evil instincts.

Human nature >> vices and virtues >> morality and immorality

Our instincts are more important than following "moral codes."

Life is about rituals. It may be rituals that result from following a moral code, or rituals that result from following our instincts. When we follow our good and evil instincts, we perform rituals that come naturally to us. The Old Testament was about rituals from a moral code. The New Testament was about rituals that came directly from the instincts of the human nature.

Understanding right and wrong also depends on the reality of the situation. If the rituals we perform are the reality we live in, then right and wrong will depend on these rituals.

The whole point of a Law that said "eye for an eye" was to show how a moral code would fail humanity. That's why we've now got the Gospel.

Everything becomes simpler if we see life in terms of the instincts we follow.
If we define everything in terms of "human rights," we miss the point of what morality and immorality really is. It's us following our good and evil instincts.

If you never knew about this concept of ritual cleanliness it's because you haven't read the Bible enough or you haven't looked in the right places.

Ritual cleanliness is not superstitious nonsense. If you think about it, it defines a completely different reality. Every reality has it's own terminology. Concepts like genocide, human rights, democracy and freedom of conscience are concepts of humanism. Ritual cleanliness has concepts like human nature, instincts, consecration, desecration, dedication, devotion, purity, impurity, holiness, unholiness, corruption, cleanliness and uncleanliness.

Your reality is humanism. My reality is ritual cleanliness.

Life is about rituals. Some rituals are clean, some unclean. For example, when you're selfish, arrogant and hateful, you're performing unclean rituals. When you're loving and kind, you're performing holy rituals.

God is not going to force people who perform unclean rituals to do what is right because they will not. They have chosen impurity. People can, however, turn a new leaf if God gives them the opportunity to do so. If they continue to reject Him, there's no point trying again and again.

You can't say God is "unkind" if he doesn't forgive you. You can't blame God for your own iniquity. That's what we do when we say God is "unkind." Because of our evil instinct to be selfish, we blame God but it's really because we brought it on ourselves.

You want things, but you cannot have them, because you do not ask God for it. When you do ask, you're motives are wrong; you ask for things to use for your own pleasures. James 4:2-3

This isn't superstitious nonsense. Actually I think what we have in the world today -- humanism and democracy is nonsense. There's all this humanism stuff that people believe in but they never seem to be able to agree on what's right and wrong.

I am not an enemy of State. My existence here is temporal. I have chosen to go to a better place.

And that is reality from my point of view.

Was this all made up? I read the Bible and I see something that no human could have invented.

Look at the world today and the history of the ancient world.

The Law of Moses was unique in the ancient world for its Ten Commandments, and that fact that the Israelites' God got them to wander in the desert for 40 years. Yet the Israelites were more inclined to worship a golden calf. Who would have allowed Moses to order them around? Except if there was supernatural intervention.

The Christian Gospel is unique in today's world for its teaching that Christ opened for us a path toward holiness. No other religion has a story like that.

 

[Curios Mike]

I have a few questions for salty.

That's another thing -- ritual cleanliness is a prevalent theme in the Bible, Old and New Testaments.

Where is this commanded in the new testament?

And Say Awaiting_the_fifth is an ungodly man and did all sorts of evil things according to the bible, but Ok to the law of the land, should he be killed?

(((( Awaiting_the_fifth..... I mean no offense but being that you two are hot and heavy I figured I'd use you as the caracter of my question)))

{{{{{ I also have a request..... being that we keep stating the Bible says this or it says that; if it is possible for you would you quote what it says, or at least leave a refference to where to find it..... Also on the deffinitions, or other commentaries or other scripture from other books.....}}}}}}}

Example for definition:
definition of Kill found in Exodus 20:13
OT:7523
ratsach (raw-tsakh'); a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:

KJV - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I have another question.... Its sounds kinda bad, but What if Isreal had kill everything in that land.........(their are a few instenses where they disobeyed and did not)

Judg 2:1-6
2:1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.' But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.' " 4 So it was, when the Angel of the LORD spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept. 5 Then they called the name of that place Bochim; and they sacrificed there to the LORD. 6 And when Joshua had dismissed the people, the children of Israel went each to his own inheritance to possess the land.
NKJV




Anyways this one if mostly for you historians: What if Isreal obeyed and drove out all the inhabitants..... Would their be an Islam now?

Here is the nations/Tribes that where not driven out:

Judg 1:27-36
27 However, Manasseh did not drive out the inhabitants of Beth Shean and its villages, or Taanach and its villages, or the inhabitants of Dor and its villages, or the inhabitants of Ibleam and its villages, or the inhabitants of Megiddo and its villages; for the Canaanites were determined to dwell in that land. 28 And it came to pass, when Israel was strong, that they put the Canaanites under tribute, but did not completely drive them out.
29 Nor did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; so the Canaanites dwelt in Gezer among them.
30 Nor did Zebulun drive out the inhabitants of Kitron or the inhabitants of Nahalol; so the Canaanites dwelt among them, and were put under tribute.
31 Nor did Asher drive out the inhabitants of Acco or the inhabitants of Sidon, or of Ahlab, Achzib, Helbah, Aphik, or Rehob. 32 So the Asherites dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land; for they did not drive them out.
33 Nor did Naphtali drive out the inhabitants of Beth Shemesh or the inhabitants of Beth Anath; but they dwelt among the Canaanites, the inhabitants of the land. Nevertheless the inhabitants of Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath were put under tribute to them.
34 And the Amorites forced the children of Dan into the mountains, for they would not allow them to come down to the valley; 35 and the Amorites were determined to dwell in Mount Heres, in Aijalon, and in Shaalbim; yet when the strength of the house of Joseph became greater, they were put under tribute. 36 Now the boundary of the Amorites was from the Ascent of Akrabbim, from Sela, and upward.
NKJV

The Canaanites where mentioned several time so I Italic them. I put Megiddo in bold becuase it holds prophetic importance.... If you guys are familier with armagedin.
Anyways I figure some of you historians may know more about these cultures from a history stand point.

The other reason why I asked the prior question is becuase If I'm not mistaken the Islamic people are decendents of Ismael, Abrahams son. and As far As I know that area where he lived was part of the promise land.

Ishmaels decendents:

Gen 25:12-18
12 Now this is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's maidservant, bore to Abraham. 13 And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; then Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and their settlements, twelve princes according to their nations. 17 These were the years of the life of Ishmael: one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people. 18(They dwelt from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt as you go toward Assyria.) He died in the presence of all his brethren.
NKJV

LOL I may have just answered my own question, but anyways...

Judg 2:3
Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.

Biblicaly speaking this is Probably why God Ordered the Children of Isreal to Completly wipe them out... Think of How many have died in that Region ever sense? If they would have obeyed their would have been alot less killed..... but this is just another theory...... (((1 Cor 3:18-20
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness"; ))))
NKJV

 

[kabbalah]

was the Bible written by man or God? Moses was a kabbalist of the highest degree having contact with God, so whether he wrote it or God wrote it is irrelevant, but it is divinely written.

Is genocide ever justified? Yes! In fact it is ALWAYS justified! There is only one force in the world, the Creator who is absolutely benevolent. Human beings have no free will until they begin to study Kabbalah, they gradually become more and more free as they equalize form with the Creator. All suffering is sent as absolute kindness, so that we will ask ourselves "why am I suffering?" There are two ways to progress towards equivalence of form with the Creator: 1.suffering 2.kabbalah. Either way the Creator will lead us to the goal we are destined for, only kabbalah is faster and less painful.

By the way, the entire Tanakh refers to spirituality, not corporeality, although since the spiritual world must be reveled at least once in our world these events did occur historically. but these stories are really referring to the inner states of souls. The Canaanites are an aspect of the evil inclination in a person that must be completly destroyed.

 

[Quahom1]

Human beings have no free will until they begin to study Kabbalah, they gradually become more and more free as they equalize form with the Creator.

I disagree. I think that just shot that theory down...

And genocide is never appropriate, nor is it our place to ever decide. I do believe that is a kabbalahist nomer or prerequisete, to full understanding.

Certain things are just not up to us to decide, regardless of how free we are.

Still, we do it anyway...

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

(Daniel 10:14) And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come]."

Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: "O my lord, what will be the final part of these things? Daniel 12;12........ Daniel was inspired by God to write the book of Daniel yet even daniel himself did not understand what he was writing down............

And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end...daniel 12;9 interesting dont you think?

 

[iBrian]

Killing is fine if it doesn't involve hatred? Genocide is just ritual cleansing? God makes us suffer out of kindness?

And I guess you both wonder why atheists get the impression that God is some kind of twisted evil monster?

 

[Kelcie]

That was a very intense discussion of the biblical accounts of history. Very scholarly I might add.

For me the bible was God-Inspired, as are most religious texts. However, man did indeed have to write down this inspiration. The question really is how clear was this inspiration received? For each person who wrote a book pertaining to the bible, each account clearly demonstrates a distinct flavour of the writer’s own personality and beliefs. How much of it was received clearly is open for debate as has been demonstrated in this thread. How much of it has remained in its original written form is also open for debate. However our level of understanding of what is inherent will determine our level of understanding as to the depth of the writer and his/her accounts.

When the writer changes so does the flow of the texts, with subtle changes that has suited the writer of the time. In its essence however there is a lot of truth that spring from the context of what is being communicated to the reader.

God has not hidden himself from anyone, he is constantly revealing himself everyday through the word, through the everyday events of our lives, but those of us who do not have the eyes to see will not. The greatest power if you will God has bestowed upon man is the power to choose. He has provided us with everything we need to be in constant communion with him but it is man who has chosen not to.

Man has chosen to do heinous acts and acts that harm, God does not command us to do anything because of the free choice and free will inherent in us.

History (not only biblical history) shows that in the name of God many a million of people have been killed in more than horrible ways. In the name of God, racism is born. In the name of God, people kill themselves. But it was never God’s choice it has been and always will be Mans choice. Perhaps they confuse their messages, I don’t know, I only know that when you dwell in the essence of God killing is not an option even if it is ritualistic. It is natures job to cleanse the earth, it is mans job to cleanse ones self. (Not others) The bible offers many methods in how to do this and it does not include killing.

God has instilled in us, all that we need to cleanse ourselves and realize truth when it is presented; it is us and us only who choose not to see it in its essence.


Just my humble opinion
Kelcie

 

[Saltmeister]

I have a few questions for salty.

That's another thing -- ritual cleanliness is a prevalent theme in the Bible, Old and New Testaments.

Where is this commanded in the new testament?

The things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these are the things that make a person ritually unclean. For from his heart come the evil ideas which lead him to murder, commit adultery and do other immoral things: to rob, lie and slander others. These are the things that make a person unclean. But to eat without washing you hands as they say you should -- this doesn't make a person unclean. Matthew 15:18-20

At that time you surrendered yourselves entirely as slaves to impurity and wickedness for wicked purposes. In the same way you must now surrender yourselves entirely as slaves of righteousness for holy purposes. Romans 6:19

You must put to death, then, the earthly desires at work in you, such as sexual immorality, indecency, lust, evil passions and greed. Colossians 3:5

He is the one who holds the whole building together and makes it grow into a sacred temple dedicated to the Lord. Ephesians 2:21

What the human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy and indecent actions; in the worship of idols and witchcraft . . . I warn you that those who do these things will not possess the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Come as living stones, and let yourselves be used in building the spiritual temple, where you will serve as holy priests to offer spiritual and acceptable sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:5

What else can I say? Life is about rituals. The Epistles clearly support this view. It's just that in today's modern society, our secular views make us "dismiss" ritualistic concepts in the Bible as the "superstitious nonsense" of the past. These ritualistic concepts are part of the Christian Gospel and should not be neglected.

A person will reap exactly what he plants. If he plants in the field of his natural desires, from it he will gather the harvest of death. If he plants in the field of the Spirit (of God), from the Spirit he will gather the harvest of eternal life. Galatians 6:7-8

You reap what you sow. What goes round comes round. When you do good deeds, it makes other people's lives better. They in turn will be able to help others. Those helped will then help you. If your deeds are evil, it ruins people's lives, and they in turn ruin other people's lives.

The rituals you perform are what you sow. The rituals other people have performed are what you reap. Eventually, what you contribute will come back in some form or another.

And Say Awaiting_the_fifth is an ungodly man and did all sorts of evil things according to the bible, but Ok to the law of the land, should he be killed?

(((( Awaiting_the_fifth..... I mean no offense but being that you two are hot and heavy I figured I'd use you as the caracter of my question)))

Not exactly, I just had a few brief skirmishes with him. It's nothing personal. I just respond to whatever I find on the forum.

The killing of the Canaanites was symbolic of what God would do when "the end of the world" comes. It was an event that happened as a warning of what would happen in the future in the End Times.

Everybody is going to be judged anyway, so even if Awaiting the Fifth is not a Canaanite, he would still be punished for what he did.

The moral of the story with the killing of the Canaanites is that at the end of the world, people like Awaiting the Fifth (in real life he's a good guy, but in this example he isn't ) will be wiped out, not by the sword, but by Judgment.

Awaiting the Fifth, this is nothing personal. I was just using you as an example. You're not really a bad guy. It was Mike's idea.

Only the righteous will inherit the earth. Dead people will come back to life and if they are judged to have been "righteous" they will be allowed to live here for eternity.

See? Life here is only temporal. Just because God wipes out the Canaanites doesn't mean he's a mass murderer. If some of them were good people, especially the children, they will be brought back to life and live with us for eternity.

It's like the killing never happened.

For example, Buddhists and Hindus believe in reincarnation. You kill someone in your past life. You get reincarnated. You meet the person you killed in your current life. It may be that neither of you remember the killing. It's like it never even happened.

It's like reincarnation that only happens once in your whole existence.

And so it is with the Canaanites.

{{{{{

I also have a request..... being that we keep stating the Bible says this or it says that; if it is possible for you would you quote what it says, or at least leave a refference to where to find it..... Also on the deffinitions, or other commentaries or other scripture from other books.....}}}}}}}

Sorry about that. I tend to write these things in a rush.

There are also times when I assume people know what stories I'm actually talking about.

 

[Jeff]

Re: Reality, Logic and Superstitious Nonsense

The veiws expressed by many people here have done nothing more but to further shake my faith in religion.

Genocide is wrong, nothing any of you can say can change this fact. you can try to justifiy genocide( or should I say ritual cleansing) and say that it was ok for some reason or another, but if genocide is something that the Christian God sees as permitable then he does not deserve to be worshiped.

 

[Saltmeister]

And in regards to Saltmeister's question- was it really bad for these kids to be killed? Yes. I think killing children is completely abhorrent, under all circumstances. No matter how they are being brought up- as Nazis, as terrorists, as whatever- they are still children. And we must remember that the text reads that even the youngest infants were killed. Surely, no person would argue that such cruelty as slaughtering infants during war is justifed?

(Although I suppose if one wants to get around the issue, one could argue that they weren't human, and so somehow it's OK. It's just not an argument I can buy into.)

Well, I might present to you an alternative here.

One point I'd like to make first of all is that life here is temporal.

As I've been saying, the killing of the Canaanites was symbolic of what God would do when "the end of the world" came. It's an event that warns us of what's going to happen in the future in the End Times.

God's people will inherit the earth. Who God's people really are is another question.

You might say it's unfair for the Canaanites to be singled-out and chosen as "victims" even though there were other evil people around. Then again, life here is temporal. We will all eventually die. God simply cut their lives short. These Canaanites are now either in the world of the dead, or they're now with God in heaven.

Also, the Jews were unfortunate enough to be singled-out and chosen as God's people and they spent 40 years wandering in the desert because they didn't have respect for Him. After 40 years they were supposedly well-behaved and respectful enough of God "to deserve the honour" of performing this ritual cleansing ceremony against the Canaanites.

The Jews were chosen not because they were superior, but they were just chosen.

Perhaps I could say that even if there were a lot of bad apples in the Jewish race and quite a few bright shining angels in the Canaanite race, it didn't matter. The Jews served as prototype/archetype of a holy nation. The Canaanites served as a prototype/archetype for an unholy nation.

It's part of a prophecy of the future.

Alright, you might ask, where's the prophecy? The entire Old Testament story is itself a prophecy. For example, Jesus was a liberator just like Moses. Moses freed the Israelites from slavery by the Egyptians, and Jesus freed us from the power of sin.

Regardless of who was who, all good and evil people will be judged no matter when they have died and how. On Judgment Day, all dead people, wherever they come from, will be raised to life to stand Judgment. Some of those Canaanites, especially the children, may inherit the earth. The bad apples among the Jews will go to hell.

This ritual cleansing act serves as a warning to all of us, so it really didn't matter who was good and who was evil in that ritual cleansing act.

It's more like the killing of the Canaanites never happened at all. Think about it. Life here is temporal. God makes our lives relatively short to give us time to choose between His Kingdom, and kingdoms offered by demons in hell.

The children who were killed will probably be resurrected, stand Judgment and if they were good, enter God's Kingdom anyway. Being killed as a Canaanite wouldn't necessarily disqualify you from inheriting the earth in the Perfect Age. Being a Jew doesn't mean you end up in this paradise either.

In one of my earlier posts I said that it was a bit like reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism, except that it only happens once. You kill someone in your past life and maybe get demoted or stay in the same place in this life. When you meet your victim of your past life in this life, neither him or you are likely to remember what happened.

It's as if it doesn't matter.

If it wasn't genocide then it was just ritual cleansing. If you were a good person as a Canaanite, that ritual cleansing didn't apply to you, and on Judgment Day you inherit the earth anyway. Your life as a Canaanite would only have been temporary.

The reason why every living thing (except small creatures like tiny insects and spiders) had to be killed was to destroy the whole memory of that unholy nation. People had to forget that it ever even existed.

That's just like what's going to happen in the End Times. All evil on earth will be destroyed as if it never existed.

One thing the Gospel teaches is that if we believe in Christ, we're not harmed by sin or physical death.

When Christ died physically, he preached the Gospel to the people in the world of the dead and those who believed went to heaven. Some of these were probably the Canaanites killed by the Israelites.

This is one way of seeing it without dehumanising the Canaanites.

Perhaps you can't buy this either, but the way I see is that the world/reality we live in was never meant to exist forever. There is something better for us in God's Kingdom.

 

[Saltmeister]

Re: Reality, Logic and Superstitious Nonsense

The veiws expressed by many people here have done nothing more but to further shake my faith in religion.

Genocide is wrong, nothing any of you can say can change this fact. you can try to justifiy genocide( or should I say ritual cleansing) and say that it was ok for some reason or another, but if genocide is something that the Christian God sees as permitable then he does not deserve to be worshiped.

God decides who lives and who doesn't live, when, where and how.

People who are dead can come back to life.

With what I said earlier about the Canaanites and Jews symbolising what's going to happen in the future where God's people inherit the earth, are you saying that God has no right to exclude people from inheriting the earth?

In the future it won't be the sword that condemns people, but the Sword of Judgment. That's the moral of the story.

If some of the Canaanites the Jews killed end up in heaven because they were good, so be it. The ritual cleansing act was just a sign.

Why call it genocide if our existence here is temporal? Don't you don't believe in an afterlife? Don't you believe in the other world? Don't you believe that one day all good people will inherit the earth?

Genocide is only genocide if the legacy of what happened lives on forever. However, if God has the power to resurrect people then it's no longer genocide because it's as if they never died.

As I said, you believe it's genocide because that's your reality. You obviously don't believe in afterlife or resurrection. It seems you're judging everything on what happens in this world. Afterlife and resurrection are not part of your reality. You judge everything in physical terms.

To me spirituality is something truly spiritual. To you it's psychology, neurology, neuroscience, brain science and the physiology and biochemistry of the brain. Yet the brain is controlled by the laws of physics. Planck's Constant and Electrostatics. Just a bunch of atoms, molecules, cells, vacuoles, enzymes and protoplasm.

No wonder you value physical existence so highly. It seems that people couldn't possibly exist in another world or another reality.

Despite the science and technology, people in this world still can't make up their mind on what reality is. Without a God, people have all sorts of ideas on what reality was meant to be but there's no unifying model.

Temporal existence means we don't live in this reality forever. Ever seen the movie Matrix? It's about people plugging themselves into a virtual reality. The problem is, the people controlled by the Matrix don't know they're part of a virtual reality. They think it's the real reality.

That's why I called this post "Reality, Logic and Superstitious Nonsense."

You may think religions are superstitious nonsense, but then you're own reality becomes nonsense. No reality, no God. No God, no reality.

Perhaps we're all part of a laboratory simulation. Who's the God of the lab workers, then?

Jeff, may God have mercy on you and me if we don't discover the true reality.

 

[Jeff]

Saltmeister,

You are right i do not beleive in a afterlife. i believe this as strongly as you beleive that there is one, and there is our problem. you think that it is ok to impose your beleifs on other people, which is never a good thing, but when you beleifes involve wiping whole races of people from the face of the planet, it is evil.

 

[lunamoth]

I hope it goes without saying that very few Christians would try to defend genocide and ethnic cleansing as Biblically prescribed ritualistic cleansing (or at all). This whole line of thinking is abhorrent to myself as a human being and as a Christian.

lunamoth

 

[satay]

I belive that Bible is written by men and inspired by men. Concept of GOD presented in the bible is way too close to the human nature. Anger, jealousy, envy etc. all these are human emotions...Does GOD have these qualities?
Should he/she have these qualities?

satay

 

[Kelcie]

Re: Reality, Logic and Superstitious Nonsense

The veiws expressed by many people here have done nothing more but to further shake my faith in religion.

Genocide is wrong, nothing any of you can say can change this fact. you can try to justifiy genocide( or should I say ritual cleansing) and say that it was ok for some reason or another, but if genocide is something that the Christian God sees as permitable then he does not deserve to be worshiped.

Hi Jeff,

It is unfortunate that people will have views that differ from yours. However, do not let other peoples view shake your faith. What you have come to know and come to learn from your faith can only be confirmed from within. It is not dependent on what others say that determine your relationship with God. If they do not impart the wisdom you seek, discard it. You obviously dont feel the need to bring out the whole bible to justify your view for me this is a good thing. Eventually you will also understand where other people are at and let it slip by you without affecting your faith.

Genocide is Man's doing not God's doing. This thread illustrates well how easily people (not God) will do whatever it takes to protect their own beliefs or force their understanding on another. Gladly, Im sure it wont end in Genocide.

Stay Strong
Kelcie

 

[Kelcie]

I belive that Bible is written by men and inspired by men. Concept of GOD presented in the bible is way too close to the human nature. Anger, jealousy, envy etc. all these are human emotions...Does GOD have these qualities?
Should he/she have these qualities?

satay

Hi Satay,

The truest form of human nature is quite pure. However in the manifest it is everchanging and becomes mistaken for human nature in its entirety. In the manifest I would agree, the human emotions are prevalent in the bible.

God has all these and more but not in the way you would suspect. They are far beyond our minds concept of them. These emotions do not destroy they uplift, they nurture growth, they promote higher understandings of GOD.

Kelcie

 

[satay]

Hi Satay,

The truest form of human nature is quite pure. However in the manifest it is everchanging and becomes mistaken for human nature in its entirety. In the manifest I would agree, the human emotions are prevalent in the bible.

God has all these and more but not in the way you would suspect. They are far beyond our minds concept of them. These emotions do not destroy they uplift, they nurture growth, they promote higher understandings of GOD.

Kelcie

Namaste Kelcie,
Thanks for the response.

Obviously, what you say about the emotions etc. is valid.
My problem is not with the human emotions per se, my problem is that the men who worte the bible have imagined God as behaving like humans! E.g. the verses about God getting angry and jealous. These men have made God look like some kind of tyrant in the sense that if you don't please him or do something that will not please him he will throw you in a fire pit, eternaly, mind you. These writers have made God look like a child that gets into a tantrum mode if his wishes are not fulfilled. No, such writings could not have been inspired by and entity known as God.

satay