Bible inspired by God or just written by man?

[Curios Mike]

I've been hearing some folks make attacks on the Bible. That it was written by man and is not inspired, But I was woundering what Book or laws or what do you think is inspired by God? And why you think the Bible is not inspired By God?

 

[cool_aid2006]

Well, my opinion is that the Bible was inspired by God. I don't know if I'd necessarily say it was wrote by man. I mean yes, it was "wrote" by man, but it came from God. I believe God wrote the books in the Bible through man. He used man to get out the message I believe.

I know your question was for mostly those saying the Bible wasn't inspired, but I just figured I'd put my 2 cents in. God Bless.

 

[Jeff]

well i think that the bible was simply written by men. of course i have no real evidence to support my claim, and you have no evidence to support yours so its really hard to debate this issue.

Prehaps if the bible had been written by some god it would not contridict it self so many times. the contradicting morals found in the different parts of the Bible seem to suggest that it was written by many people of many differnt mind sets.

 

[lunamoth]

well i think that the bible was simply written by men.

Hi Jeff, welcome to CR. I think the Bible was written by men (and some women) too. But, why did they write it?

peace,
lunamoth

 

[Jeff]

well of course we'll never really know what they were thinking or why they wrote, but we can speculate. im sure when they wrote it they truly beleived that they were writing the truth, as were the authors of all other religious texts. but just becasue they thought that they were writing the truth doesnt mean they acctually were.

 

[lunamoth]

They said they wrote it because they experienced God. I have no reason to not believe this. My conclusion is that the Bible is written by humans, but God-inspired. It is a living and sacred record of our experience of God.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[iBrian]

I've been hearing some folks make attacks on the Bible. That it was written by man and is not inspired, But I was woundering what Book or laws or what do you think is inspired by God? And why you think the Bible is not inspired By God?

Well, it was obviously written by men...and is a matter of Faith to believe that God had any specific part in that process.

It's also worth throwing in whether "inspired" means on an exclusive or inclusive basis - for example, one approach would be to state that all spiritual writings are inspired by the Divine, according to each individual circumstance and culture being written for.

Now, to imply that a set of texts were written by a specific interpretation of God to explain that faith - well, really, it's basically a case of men setting up the texts as an authority so that they may never be properly questioned. This is not necessarily a very constructive thing to do, though as Man is a social animal that follows authority, you can certainly see the social uses of such a tactic.

 

[Saltmeister]

well i think that the bible was simply written by men. of course i have no real evidence to support my claim, and you have no evidence to support yours so its really hard to debate this issue.

Prehaps if the bible had been written by some god it would not contridict it self so many times. the contradicting morals found in the different parts of the Bible seem to suggest that it was written by many people of many differnt mind sets.

I was just wondering.

What exactly do you mean by "contradicting morals?"

I can guess what you're probably talking about. You must be thinking about how God ordered the killing of multitudes of Canaanites. This must make the God of the Bible look much like a "mass-murderer" and that he violated "human rights" by killing "innocent people."

If I'm wrong, correct me. Nevertheless, at least we could discuss why God isn't a "mass murderer."

I used to have a problem with this, but now I don't think there really is a problem with God killing the Canaanites. If you think "human rights" is the best measure of right or wrong, then you would certainly come to the conclusion that the God of the Bible contradicted himself.

However, if you look at how the Canaanites lived and what they did, maybe it doesn't seem so bizarre after all. The Canaanites are recorded as people who followed religions where the following took place.

1) Sacrifice of children as part of a system of regular, authorised rituals

2) Men having sex with each other and animals

3) Men having sex with "temple prostitutes"

4) Witchcraft, fortune-telling and sorcery

These acts by themselves seem like "isolated cases." However, look at the similarities between these four activities. It must be interesting to think of the reasons why people did these things. These activities were not individual cases of wrongdoing. People did these things as part of a religion.

My question is, where did people get these ideas from? Why did they have these things as part of their religion? What gods were they worshipping?

That's the point. Who got them to do these things? Something was corrupting them. Something was driving them drunkenly mad.

I think it's pretty obvious who these "gods" really were. They were fallen angels, demons and evil spirits that wanted to control the minds of human beings and toy with them. This religion was a result of a demon's evil passion, evil desire and evil sentiment.

These people devoted themselves to a demonic religion. The gods they worshipped were really demons. They were demon worshippers and that's why God ordered them killed.

Do you see? If you just look at the human point of view it doesn't make sense. Why is God killing these people? The reason is simple. They offered their minds and bodies to demons and demon gods.

Therefore, the idea that God mass-murdered these people and violated "human rights" is just one way of looking at it. Meanwhile, what are the angels in heaven doing? Are they just floating and flying around up there? Huh? Obviously, God didn't just create the angels to sit and hang around up there.

I think the problem is that people often focus too much on the humans in that situation but not enough about what was happening in the supernatural/spiritual dimension. When we add angels and demons to the equation, it starts to make sense and we start to understand what really happened. The equation is now balanced because we now include elements that we thought didn't exist.

God could not allow His Creation to be abused by disgruntled and badly behaved angels. The best way to stop it was to cut their lives short. Life for these people was pointless if people lived this way. In this way God relieved these people from slavery to a demon god so that nobody else would be born in a world void of dignity.

The Canaanites, by the religions they followed, defiled the land and God was simply using the Israelites to cleanse and purify the land. The killing was a "ritual purification" of the demon worship of the former inhabitants of the land. This is symbolic of what God will do on Judgment Day in that "the powers will be driven from space." That is, demons, evil spirits and dark angels would be removed from power in the heavenly places and offices of authority.

God would deal with these "demons" on Judgment Day.

This talk of demons, I understand, may blow you away. Sometimes, however, we just have to admit that there are other forces at work in this world. Supernatural and spiritual forces.

Judaism and Christianity seem to be the only two prominent religions that have a story to tell about angels and demons and how these "angelic and demonic beings" present themselves as gods to be idolised. An exception is Islam, which was based on these two religions.

I think these angelic and demonic concepts distinguish Judaism and Christianity from many other religions and make them unique. No other religion has a story like the Christian Gospel especially with these "angelic and demonic forces" at play.

From my point of view, the Christian Gospel was not a human invention but God-inspired because if we look at the religions in the world today, they are generally all different from the Christian Gospel in that they don't have angels and demons in their story. Another thing about the Gospel is Christ offering us a direct pathway to God.

If you draw up a concept map of all this stuff about angels, demons, God and the Way of Christ you find that the underlying concepts of the Christian Gospel could not possibly have been invented by humans, but a secret that God kept from His Creation from the beginning of time.

You would have to study the New Testament, especially the Epistles, to know what I mean. The problem is that people usually don't. They think they know the Christian faith but really they know very little. As a teenager, I used to think that way. I thought it was all common sense. When I started reading the Bible, I realised how much I didn't know.

You may know "Christianity" "from a glance," but that doesn't mean you know "authentic Christianity." Authentic Christianity is the Christian Gospel itself.

True followers of the Christian Gospel treat the Christian faith as a spiritual journey rather than a mangled twist of doctrines, morals and ethics. The "Gospel" itself is a story not just of the tragedy of the human race, but also the adventures of God's people.

This is a unique story, and it was written about by many people. What Paul, Peter, James and John wrote were basically all the same Gospel but from different view points.

I don't know what you mean by "contradicting morals" but I'd be interested to find out what you're thinking . . .

By the way, have you actually read the Bible? Or do you assume you know it all?

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Well I cant speak for Jeff of course, but I've read most of the bible at one time or another and I must say, Saltmeister, you seem to be making a lot of assumptions there and calling it fact.

Am I right in assuming that by Canaanites, you are reffering to the people of Soddam and Gamorra? If it is true what you say, that they were worshipping Deamons, why did God not simply reveal himself to them allowing them to see that He was the true God, this would have been the action of a forgiving, merciful God, allow them to see the error of their ways and give them the opportunity to change. This is the ethical message described in the New Testament, Turn the other cheek, do not ask a robber to return your goods, in short, give the evil doers a chance to change. And there, is the great moral contradiction. The old testament says an eye for an eye, it tells of a God who punishes. The new testament preaches forgiveness and tolerance and tells of a God who is all merciful and will forgive till the end.

 

[Jeff]

Saltmeister, before we begin let me tell you that for most of my life I have been a practicing Christian, and while I have not read the entire Bible, I have read enough of it to see some of the contradictions.



What I see as contradictory morals are the horrible actions of the god in the Old Testament and the messages of peace and love found in the New Testament. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorra and the great flood are two examples that really do stick in my mind.



If what you are saying about God destroying corrupt cultures is true then god surely would have destroyed the ancient Greeks, who practiced the sacrifice of women and children. An example of this can be seen in Homer's the Iliad, in Which King Agamemnon sacrifices his daughter to insure victory. Homosexuality was common place in Greek culture, especially among men. And prostitution ran rampant; some prostitutes would be consecrated in a temple so that they could charge a higher price for their services. And as for Witch craft and fortune telling, I'm sure you have heard of the oracle of Delphi.



Clearly the Greeks committed all the same sins as The Canaanites, but ironically they were not destroyed. They were assimilated into Roman culture, which in a series of councils defined the religion that you follow today.



How could an all knowing, loving god destroy the Canaanites simply because they believed in the wrong things. There were many other less brutal options that God could have taken as said by Awaiting the Fifth. The lack of tolerance shown in this story is not a quality of a kind god; he breaks his own commandments, and goes against the teachings of Jesus Christ. The brutality of god in the Old Testament is proof enough for me that the bible was written by men and not inspired by god, for anger and intolerance are qualities of men.



I agree with most of the messages found in the New Testament, and if it wasn’t for the Old Testament I would still probably be a Christian. But you can not simply dismiss the first half of the bible and say that the answer lies in the second.

 

[Quahom1]

well i think that the bible was simply written by men. of course i have no real evidence to support my claim, and you have no evidence to support yours so its really hard to debate this issue.

Prehaps if the bible had been written by some god it would not contridict it self so many times. the contradicting morals found in the different parts of the Bible seem to suggest that it was written by many people of many differnt mind sets.

The "contradiction" you speak of is man's, not God's. The Bible is true from start to finish. Man's perception on the other hand is about 6,000,000,000 different ways.

Why? Because we want it our way, not God's, or anyone elses.

Since we cannot have it our way, we make deals, "compromise", therefore allowing us to maintain a loose confederation of unity, while deep inside we each think we are absolutely correct. In the mean time, God sits back and waits for us to come to our senses...

v/r

Q

 

[path_of_one]

I believe pretty much as lunamoth outlined- the Bible was inspired by people's experiences of God. That doesn't mean, for me, that it is infallible or was written by God. There's a difference.

It wasn't "just" written by man, in the sense that today's newspaper or the latest Harry Potter book was. But it wasn't inscribed by God, either, in my opinion. Experiencing God inspired the writers, who then tried to interpret and express those experiences. I think they made some mistakes (I hope unintentionally) in their interpretation of God, among them the interpretation of the actions against the Canaanites (which sounds like pretty standard war propaganda, if you've read other ancient war propaganda) and the flood (ancient peoples everywhere attribute natural disasters to the wrath of God, ghosts, or whatever).

In the case of the Canaanites, I don't buy the "God destroying an evil culture" argument. First of all, it takes some leaps of logic to conclude that God needed to destroy the infants and children, and the domesticated animals. Were the cows and sheep corrupt? And the kids under the age of critical thinking and reasoning? Young children can't worship demons- they don't have the reasoning capacity to understand what they're doing. This is why the age of accountability in the Bible is twelve years of age. Secondly, I don't buy witchcraft or prostitution as reasonable bases for destroying a culture. Lots (perhaps most) of societies had (and still have!) both. They're not getting destroyed. Sacrificing people is horrific, but was also not uncommon in the ancient world, but somehow all the other cultures that did this on earth were spared from God's wrath, including some very bloody empires such as the Aztecs. In reality, the passages about the Canaanites read more like ancient war propaganda- the "evilness" of the enemy justified the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, children, and even animals, and God was presumed to be on the side of the Jews because they won. This sort of thing isn't unheard of- just look to the later documents of Ceasar when he went up against the Celtic Druids. Any historian or social scientist knows you can't judge a culture by the "history" texts of their enemy, because it's always a very one-sided and inaccurate story. The Old Testament contains much that I believe was God-inspired and is beautiful, but it is also a historical text of the Jews, and as such, is as likely to be biased as any historical text.

Secondly, there's the whole problem of ancient folk science and religion overlapping- which happened in all ancient cultures. Thus, things like floods and earthquakes are generally perceived as being of supernatural origin in ancient texts. We now know, of course, that natural disasters happen due to entirely natural causes, but the ancient peoples couldn't know this. So their science (explanation of the natural world) is very much wrapped up in a supernatural context (religion). That doesn't mean that as modern people, we have to buy into the same leap of logic. That such assumptions are incorrect also doesn't mean the Bible was "just" written by men and is worthless as a sacred text. The meaning in the Bible, in my belief, is what is truly important. The events and the interpretations of them are secondary. The question I ask when I read the Bible is not "Did this happen?" or "Is this why this happened?" but rather "What does this mean for my life now?" and "What insight does this give me into my relationship with God?"

Just my 2 c.

 

[Quahom1]

In the case of the Canaanites, I don't buy the "God destroying an evil culture" argument. First of all, it takes some leaps of logic to conclude that God needed to destroy the infants and children, and the domesticated animals. Were the cows and sheep corrupt? And the kids under the age of critical thinking and reasoning? Young children can't worship demons- they don't have the reasoning capacity to understand what they're doing. This is why the age of accountability in the Bible is twelve years of age. Secondly, I don't buy witchcraft or prostitution as reasonable bases for destroying a culture. Lots (perhaps most) of societies had (and still have!) both. They're not getting destroyed. Sacrificing people is horrific, but was also not uncommon in the ancient world, but somehow all the other cultures that did this on earth were spared from God's wrath, including some very bloody empires such as the Aztecs. In reality, the passages about the Canaanites read more like ancient war propaganda- the "evilness" of the enemy justified the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, children, and even animals, and God was presumed to be on the side of the Jews because they won. This sort of thing isn't unheard of- just look to the later documents of Ceasar when he went up against the Celtic Druids. Any historian or social scientist knows you can't judge a culture by the "history" texts of their enemy, because it's always a very one-sided and inaccurate story. The Old Testament contains much that I believe was God-inspired and is beautiful, but it is also a historical text of the Jews, and as such, is as likely to be biased as any historical text.

Canaanites were not "people" according to scripture. Not "people" in the sense that we know them. They were giants, of ill will, and contempt for anyone "lesser" in stature than themselves. They also held God in contempt, as history in the Bible presents such matters. They were not "human" wholey. Since God seems to take pity and have second thoughts on man, everywhere we turn in the Bible, but for certain "races" He has no pity, nor second thoughts about annhialating the "people" of Canaan, and He was going to use mere humans to do it...

The children of these "people" were not human. That is to say, they had no innocence within. The women of this race were not innocent. They cast their lot with the "males" that mated them. The issue was not witchcraft, nor prostitution, that caused their demise. It was hatred for that which they knew beyond the shadow of a doubt, existed. God. And God wins, hands down, in any battle. The animals were "corrupted", interesting take on issues. Genetically altered, perhaps?

According to history. The Canaanites were a force to be reconned with. They NEVER lost. They took nor gave quarter. They destroyed everything in their path. There was no humanity in them.

Very powerful stuff, if true...

v/r

Q

 

[Saltmeister]

Am I right in assuming that by Canaanites, you are reffering to the people of Soddam and Gamorra? If it is true what you say, that they were worshipping Deamons, why did God not simply reveal himself to them allowing them to see that He was the true God, this would have been the action of a forgiving, merciful God, allow them to see the error of their ways and give them the opportunity to change. This is the ethical message described in the New Testament, Turn the other cheek, do not ask a robber to return your goods, in short, give the evil doers a chance to change. And there, is the great moral contradiction. The old testament says an eye for an eye, it tells of a God who punishes. The new testament preaches forgiveness and tolerance and tells of a God who is all merciful and will forgive till the end.

Actually, the Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed centuries before.

There is a problem with God revealing Himself. Many people have asked this question before, especially to me when I was a child.

I think the reason why God doesn't reveal Himself is because it doesn't necessarily change people. People could still continue to sin. Then God would have to reveal Himself again and again. Secondly, the Canaanites didn't ask God to reveal Himself and they probably didn't know he existed. The only gods they knew about were the demon gods they worshipped.

The Israelites were the ones who asked for God and when they did, he made them wander in the wilderness for 40 years because they complained about the food they had and numerous other things.

Clearly the Greeks committed all the same sins as The Canaanites, but ironically they were not destroyed. They were assimilated into Roman culture, which in a series of councils defined the religion that you follow today.

Many other races that did the same thing were mentioned in the Bible like the Babylonians, Assyrians, Moabites, etc. God only told the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites because He was settling them into that land. The Israelites were God's people and they were performing a "ritual cleansing" of the land.
The killing of the Canaanites is symbolic of what God will do in that one day all evil on this planet will be wiped out. God's people will inherit the earth.

Some Points About "Moral Contradictions"

The elements of the Jewish Order are prototypes/archetypes of the elements and teachings in the Christian Gospel. How can they be "moral contradictions?" If you have all read the Bible how come you can't see that the Christian Gospel was modelled on the elements of the Jewish Order?

Take, for example, the Passover. The Passover is about how Moses liberated the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. The Lord's Supper is really the Passover. Jesus is the Lamb of the Passover, but he's also the liberator of God's people from slavery by sin.

The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, but that doesn't mean God doesn't have a temple anymore. The real temple was God Himself. We live in God and God also lives in us. Jesus said, "If you do not remain in me, I will not remain in you."

There are many other examples of these "parallels" but I will not list them.

Can't people see the parallels?

I admit I haven't read that much of the Bible either, but I have noticed the parallels, analogies and metaphors expressed in the Bible. The Christian and Jewish faiths both derive from the same theological model. Many people think they're different, but that's because they don't notice the similarities. The similarities are the parallels I just mentioned.

It's a lot like a snake shedding it's skin. It's the same theological model expressed in a different reality. The Jewish faith emphasises physical ceremonies. The Christian faith emphasises spiritual ceremonies.

Another point. Killing is not necessarily murder.

The Canaanites that were killed are either now in the world of the dead, or some of them are now with God and Christ in heaven. Don't you remember how Christ preached the Gospel to the people in the world of the dead?

Have you ever read the passage about Christ preaching to the spirits of the dead?

Killing is nothing if people simply get transferred to another universe.

Flesh and spirit are merely different realities.

First of all, it takes some leaps of logic to conclude that God needed to destroy the infants and children, and the domesticated animals. Were the cows and sheep corrupt? And the kids under the age of critical thinking and reasoning? Young children can't worship demons- they don't have the reasoning capacity to understand what they're doing. This is why the age of accountability in the Bible is twelve years of age.

Path of One, I know what you mean. Don't get the wrong impression. This is what I thought a few years ago. As a Christian I had a problem with it. God ordering the killing of thousands of people, including children, didn't make sense.
As with underage children getting involved with religion, I know why you feel sorry for them. Yes, they're naive, "innocent" and in many ways don't understand what they're doing. However, that doesn't mean that children can't be evil and can't understand why they can be punished for it.

Children can be brainwashed by a demonic religion. They don't understand what they're doing, but adults are sometimes like that too. Whether you're a child or an adult, when it's all explained to you, you realise it's wrong. It's just that an adult has more responsibility than a child.

Anyone know about the Japanese schoolchildren who bowed down to a picture of the Emperor every day? The children and teenagers Hitler coaxed into being Nazis. The children indoctrinated in fundamentalist Islamic madrasas each day.

I disagree with what you say about children not being able to worship demons. My mother brought me up to worship God. Why not a demon, a counterfeit concept of God? Demons are the binary opposites of God. Evil spirits are the exact opposite of the Holy Spirit. As well as being in awe of the "higher concept" of a Being of goodness, we can also have a "higher concept" of a being of evil.

I worshipped God as a child.

It's just a different way of looking at the cosmic order of the universe.

So why kill them?

As I said, Christ preached to the world of the dead. Some of these "demon worshipping children" are now "children of God" and live with God and Jesus Christ in heaven today. Was it really that bad for them to be killed?

So why kill the Canaanites? It's so that it could be written as a warning in the Bible that one day God will wipe evil from the face of earth and settle His people in it.

 

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

I think the reason why God doesn't reveal Himself is because it doesn't necessarily change people. People could still continue to sin. Then God would have to reveal Himself again and again. Secondly, the Canaanites didn't ask God to reveal Himself and they probably didn't know he existed. The only gods they knew about were the demon gods they worshipped.

This is my point exactly!! If these people were not aware of God, but they were aware of the Demons, then you can almost forgive them for the Demon Worship. If God had revealed himself to them, then they would have had a choice between the Demons and God. After that, if they continued to worship the Demons, that would be their own fault.

God only told the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites because He was settling them into that land. The Israelites were God's people and they were performing a "ritual cleansing"

Ritual Cleansing? Also known today as Ethnic Cleansing. It doesn't matter who your God is, that is wrong.

See, I think this is exactly what this thread is about. It seems to me that a lot of what is in the Bible does come from this God character, but it was written down by men, and those men seem to have made a few additions of their own. This idea that God told them to massacre a whole race of people and steal their land sounds a lot like an excuse to ease their collective conscience. My family is all Christian and I was raised and educated a Christian, and I know that the God I worshipped, the God they worship still would not command anyone to commit genocide. All this stuff about evil men and devil worship, it's the same propoganda the Christian Church used to burn witches and get rid of the pagans. Powerfull men have hijacked every major religion and twisted them all around to use as political ammunition.

The elements of the Jewish Order are prototypes/archetypes of the elements and teachings in the Christian Gospel. How can they be "moral contradictions?" If you have all read the Bible how come you can't see that the Christian Gospel was modelled on the elements of the Jewish Order?

The old Testament is not some vague lesson in Jewish history, it is a part of the Christian Faith.

I admit I haven't read that much of the Bible either

Maybe you should.

Another point. Killing is not necessarily murder.

Perhaps, but it is never a good thing.

Anyone know about the Japanese schoolchildren who bowed down to a picture of the Emperor every day?

That was a religious belief in the Emperor as a living God, it was a belief hundreds, maybe thousands of years old and was every bit as valid as any other religious belief.

The children and teenagers Hitler coaxed into being Nazis.

You mean like the Pope?


Do you really believe that Genocide can be justified by religion?

 

[Jeff]

Many other races that did the same thing were mentioned in the Bible like the Babylonians, Assyrians, Moabites, etc. God only told the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites because He was settling them into that land. The Israelites were God's people and they were performing a "ritual cleansing" of the land.
The killing of the Canaanites is symbolic of what God will do in that one day all evil on this planet will be wiped out. God's people will inherit the earth.

.

It is this idea that God favors certain races of people more than others that has lead to so many horribal acts in the name of religion. The holocaust, The Crusades, were both justified by religion.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord" -Adolf Hitler

God is not racist, god does not play favorites, and a just god would not have inspired some one to write a passage that encourages ethnic clensing. the passage was probably wirtten by some jewish politician, to make atrocities that they were commiting seem justifiable, just as Hitler was doing in the quote above.

 

[Quahom1]

It is this idea that God favors certain races of people more than others that has lead to so many horribal acts in the name of religion. The holocaust, The Crusades, were both justified by religion.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord" -Adolf Hitler

God is not racist, god does not play favorites, and a just god would not have inspired some one to write a passage that encourages ethnic clensing. the passage was probably wirtten by some jewish politician, to make atrocities that they were commiting seem justifiable, just as Hitler was doing in the quote above.

Well, there is no other religion on earth that I know of wherein the God of the people calls them the "apple of His eye". Yet the Jewish God did just that. And the rest are "grafted branches to the tree of Life", according to the same Jewish God, but as observed by the gentile converts.

The Old Testement of the Hebrews clearly points out that the Israelites are the favorite of God. Even the Qu'ran commands the faithful to respect those of the "Book".

Oh, I suggest you consider trying to read "Mein Kampf" by Adolph Hitler, before he came to power in Germany. You might be very surprised at what he says...about lots of people. He had a final solution in mind years before he stepped to a podium, with a bent cross on his arm band (or Navajo symbol).

The Holocust and Crusades were, political in nature, and expressed religiously. Get rid of the rich, get rid of the wretched. Start anew with a "pure" people with no "bad" habits (no contesting the will of those in power). Far easier to corral "sheep" than to tame "Rams".

v/r

Q

 

[path_of_one]

While I have no opinion at this time whether or not God favors certain peoples, as I really can't know and it makes little difference if I did, I am certain that the loving God I worship does not support genocide.

Perhaps I'm a bit too analytical, but I have a problem thinking that the Canaanites were literally non-human giants whose children were inherently corrupt and whose animals may have been genetically modified thousands of years before such technology was available. We have absolutely no archaeological or paleological evidence of such. I am quite certain that if a race of giants existed in that area, we would have found the evidence by now. The middle east is one big archaeological dig site, after all. It isn't out of the way the way that some of the more remote islands are- like the one on which they recently found a species of dwarf humans. Giant non-human skeletons would really stick out. If there is no evidence of such people on earth, nor a non-human culture that is substantially different from other ancient cultures, nor some kind of advanced technology... I have a hard time believing that such existed. It is not like arguing the existence of nature spirits or ghosts or God Himself- those things are supernatural and thus cannot be proven in the natural world by their very definition- but I draw the line at things that are avowedly materially real, existing on this earth, and yet leave no trace of their existence, no evidence of their reality. I'm not saying it's impossible, but rather that, for me, it is more in keeping with the evidence to interpret that the Canaanites were another ancient people, completely human, who were in a cultural clash with the Jews and were occupying territory they wanted (or needed) for themselves.

I think it is dangerous to think that any human group on earth is/was really non-human and deserves extermination. What is to stop one from believing other groups are really non-human and deserve such a fate? I'm sorry if it is blunt, but belief that genocide is justifiable somehow through the dehumanization of the people exterminated is a trend that has happened over and over again in human history. None of the people exterminated were ever non-human. There has never been biological evidence of non-human people on earth that were not part of the human lineage, and all of recorded history has been exclusively the domain of one species- H. sapiens sapiens.

Finally, in regards to children, I understand that a child can be brought up to perform worship to God or other entities in certain ways and also that children can experience the supernatural. But there is a difference between performing action without the capacity to reason through the consequences and philosophical meaning of what one is doing, and performing action with that capacity. Young children are incapable of thinking rationally through consequences, and also generally they are incapable of having much of a grasp of metaphysics, much less to break free from whatever religious system in which they are indoctrinated. To argue that they deserve to be killed based on what they could not possibly help seems cruel. Even if one accepts that the Bible is correct in that these children were worshipping demons, then the children were indoctrinated into that religion without alternatives, and were thus not responsible for their actions, as they had not been given the opportunity to do otherwise nor were they capable of fully understanding the consequences of their actions. It seems a more just option would be for them to be taught about God and have the opportunity to change their behaviors. Very young children, such as toddlers and infants, would not even remember their parents' culture or religion.

And in regards to Saltmeister's question- was it really bad for these kids to be killed? Yes. I think killing children is completely abhorrent, under all circumstances. No matter how they are being brought up- as Nazis, as terrorists, as whatever- they are still children. And we must remember that the text reads that even the youngest infants were killed. Surely, no person would argue that such cruelty as slaughtering infants during war is justifed?

(Although I suppose if one wants to get around the issue, one could argue that they weren't human, and so somehow it's OK. It's just not an argument I can buy into.)

 

[Curios Mike]

Howdy again, these are very interesting posts, and thanx for responding. I've been looking at Canaan, aparently it started with Ham the son of Noah... And from what I've been looking at They have been evil ever sense ham saw noah naked in his tent. (If you like to read and are not offended by the Bible its found in Genesis chapter 10)

I've never been the type to Say geneside is a great thing, or any kind of Killing weather small in number or a whole group of people. But I've also never been the type to Question God..... Welllllll to a certian point. I'm no different then Abraham in that sense I guess. If you guys know the story Abraham came to Sodom and Gomorahs deffense before God destroyed it (which by the way was in the land of Canaan, but happened before the exodus). This story is found in Genesis chapter 18 starting around verse 16.

Anyways back to the killing thing If God knows the heart of man, maybe theirs something more to the canaanites then we know. Maybe the Greeks and a few others where bad, but maybe God also seen in the heart that they could change, and in the Canaanites hearts was so corrupt that it would be impossible to even change their children and animals(Meaning if It was demonic opression of possesions they would have corrupted the Children as well as the animals). Maybe we dont have a clear understanding of how evil evil really is. If God is Love then maybe evil is total opposite of love to the point where it would be hatefull to allow such corruption to continue and polute those who do know love or those that have the potential of knowing Love(which would be possible if even children are corruptible). Anyways I dont persume to know the mind of God, and according to scripture could never know.......... (Rom 11:33
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!)......

Ok You know what testament means Right??? Testament means Covenent.

Jer 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
NKJV

Basically in the old Coventent to Moses and Isreal, He preaty much stated I'lll deliver you and protect you, you will be my people and I will be your God, and here is 10 commandments you should live by......... Well The Ten commandements never worked out, becuase for man (as a whole) couldnt live by them. Thus the reason for a second covanent which Was Jesus Christ. He died for you and me and all the world; so that if we Believe in Him, and Forsake evil and corruptible living; We could be made pure, and incorruptible. But as someone already mention earlier, even if God revealed himself.... Came to earth..... Walked with man.... Man still will not believe.

I guess I'm more of a spiritualist then religous, or scientific. Their are very many wholes in both. Anyone can make up a religion that sounds good, or a theory that makes sense, and call it proof. Or state that I do not see it therefore it does not exist. I once asked a police officer if he ever came up against someone that neighbors stated may be posesed. He stated yes I have. I asked him was he hard to take down he stated, no that was about the easiest arrest I've ever made. Why would the devil reveal himself to someone who who may believe but have doubts about God. But on the same note I've spoken to many ministers of different faiths, and asked if they have faced demonicaly posesed people. The stories were different, One minister was pick up and thrown by an 8 year old girl, another stated that it took him and 5 deacons to hold down a small man, I've heard on many accausions of seeing strange shadows around people that where posesed. Can this be explianed away Scientificall..... I'm sure they can be.

Anyways I'll stop rambling, but I guess my original question is answered in this:

2 Cor 3:4-6
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life

To understand anything from God we must be spiritual, or else we cannot understand; for God is a Spirit (John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.")

Is the Bible the literal word of God...scientificaly I cannot prove it... In common sense I can make theories, but that will just cuase more confusion. Was it written by man.... yes, but the question is was it inspired, or spoken to man by God.... I think this has already been answered above.

 

[Saltmeister]

This is my point exactly!! If these people were not aware of God, but they were aware of the Demons, then you can almost forgive them for the Demon Worship. If God had revealed himself to them, then they would have had a choice between the Demons and God. After that, if they continued to worship the Demons, that would be their own fault.

You should recall that in the story of Jericho, a woman named Rahab confessed her belief that the God of Israel was not only the Supreme God, but also the only holy and good God there was.

Not all Canaanites were ignorant. Rahab knew about God and acted on her knowledge of what was the truth and what was good. She was raised a pagan and heathen, born in a world of demon worship, and yet she took the chance to be with God's people. God didn't even have to open the heavens and show her His blinding glory.

As I said, God shouldn't need to reveal Himself explicitly. If people don't listen to God there's no point. It would be nice if we could be obedient even if we can't see Him!!!! Many good people have done that, even though they never have seen God.

Moreover, your chance to be one of God's people doesn't end in physical death. Remember that Christ preached to the world of the dead. Those who had never heard of the Christian Gospel were raised to life in heaven because they were destined to be God's people.

My argument stands firm despite the fact that I may have accidentally "sabotaged" my own response.

Ritual Cleansing? Also known today as Ethnic Cleansing. It doesn't matter who your God is, that is wrong.

My family is all Christian and I was raised and educated a Christian, and I know that the God I worshipped, the God they worship still would not command anyone to commit genocide.

The Ten Commandments says "do not murder" but as I said killing isn't murder if it doesn't involve hatred. The Israelites didn't hate the Canaanites. Ritual cleansing does not involve hatred. It wasn't something racist.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister
The elements of the Jewish Order are prototypes/archetypes of the elements and teachings in the Christian Gospel. How can they be "moral contradictions?" If you have all read the Bible how come you can't see that the Christian Gospel was modelled on the elements of the Jewish Order?


The old Testament is not some vague lesson in Jewish history, it is a part of the Christian Faith.

Exactly what point are you making here? It seems to me that you're just re-affirming what I said. The Jewish and Christian faiths are the same religion. We simply say "Jewish" to refer to the Mosaic Law and "Christian" for the Christian Gospel. It's part of one single story. The Jewish faith is not "part of" the Christian faith. The two "faiths" are complements of each other. It's rather like Yin and Yang. You can't have the Law without the Gospel to fulfill it. On the other hand, if there is no Law, there's no point having a Gospel.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister
I admit I haven't read that much of the Bible either


Maybe you should.

Awaiting the Fifth, I don't mean to be personal, but what kind of remark is this? Haven't I demonstrated my understanding of the Bible? I was simply saying that I hadn't read the whole Bible from start to finish. You seem to suggest I don't know enough to not be convinced that the killing was wrong. I was brought up as a Christian and I know the stories. I have read the Pentateuch (Genesis and Books of Moses), Joshua, Judges, 1/2 Kings and 1/2 Chronicles and Daniel. I've also read the Four Gospels and much of the Epistles. My point was that I'm not a scholar.

How much have you read?

You assumed I was talking about Sodom and Gomorrah when I mentioned the Canaanites with their temple prostitutes and men have sex with animals. Sodom was in Genesis!!!! I was talking about things in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deutoronomy. You said I was making "assumptions that weren't fact." Sure, the Sodomites were never recorded to have done these things, but I wasn't talking about them.

I think you should read the Bible a bit more to be sure I know what I'm talking about!!!

Originally Posted by Saltmeister
Another point. Killing is not necessarily murder.


Perhaps, but it is never a good thing.

Never a good thing? If your country was invaded, would you not fight back?

Yes, that's besides the point, but I think you should realise it's murder that's wrong, but not killing. What about euthanasia? Is euthanasia wrong? Is it wrong to kill terrorists or people who are a threat to the country?

You mean like the Pope?

The Pope is not the Head of the Church. It's Christ that's the Head. The Pope is the head of a political system that considers itself Christ's Church. The Christian Gospel is a message. It was never supposed to be about a political system. Christians are messengers of this Gospel.