Attacks on islam by Christian Leaders

[Faithfulservant]

Thank you Brian for redirecting the thread.. I was getting tired of the 3rd degree about everything I said.

 

[Abogado del Diablo]

Context

I don't think comparing Faith in this regard is going to lead to anything constructive.

Except perhaps an appropriate apology . . .

I was getting tired of the 3rd degree about everything I said

Then again, maybe not.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I knew I would log on and find you had posted on this! It's funny because Ive always been accused of trying to get the last word in.. which I never believe.. and now that I see someone else doing it.. Its driving me nuts. Ok so I can laugh at myself.. thanks lol

 

[iBrian]

Context

It may be worth stressing that the Christianity section itself was coming out of a period of disturbance at that time, and you had the misfortune of posting just at the end of that disturbance, which I remember led a couple of members to question your motivations.

I think overall we're still experiencing some misunderstandings...

 

[Saltmeister]

Islam is a religion of Monotheism,the belief of One God ALLAH, this name of God is the true name of God which is said by the Arab Christians and said by Prophet Jesus(may peace be upon him) in the ARAMIAC language),so how can Frankiln Graham say the God of Islam is not the same God?

My view as a Christian as to why the so-called "God of Islam" is not the same as the God of the Christians, is that if God is a Spirit, then the spirit of Islam is not the same as the Spirit of Christ. That would then mean that it isn't the same God, because the same Spirit would not give us two different systems of thought. One of the two spirits/Spirits is an impostor and a liar (no offence meant).

And Franklin Graham is refering to women being forced to wear the veil,he should think again about one of the women pious woman in religion the Virgin Mary(Mariam in arabic),she has set an example to all women regardless of faith,in how to preserve modesty,there is simply no debate about this.

I think that many people misunderstand Islam when they say it "violates rights" by getting women to wear the view. Muslims simply don't see it that way, so this argument doesn't work for them. Muslims (even the women) see it as a matter of modesty. They don't see it as a "loss of rights."

On the other hand, I may not agree with your point that "there is simply no debate about this." A lot of people don't agree with this practice because it seems to imply the notion of "the impurity of women." This notion is where women are held responsible for the bad behaviour of men.

Many people disapprove of it because they believe that each individual should be personally responsible for his or her own sexual desire, not somebody else. My personal belief is that God bestows on us all the obligation for self-control. If a person is not trying to attract or seduce you, that person isn't responsible for you losing control of your sexual desire.

The masses of 'so called Christians' dont or haven't followed the ways of Prophet Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him),a) Christian men do not circumcise,b)Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him) did not eat pork,c)He did not drink intoxicant(alcohol),d)sex before marriage is not allowed,d)homosexuality is not allowed,e) women to dress modestly( to follow the modesty of the Virgin Mary),the list could be endless.The lawlessness of the masses across the western world should be considered,no one is following the way of Prophet Jesus christ(may peace be upon him). and it is very wrong to attack muslims because of foreign policies set out by the west, the religion of Islam should not be attacked when it is followed by millions of people for the past 1400 years and is still the fastest growing religion in the world.

a) Christian men do not circumcise

I wouldn't say that all Christian men do not circumcise. The Christian Gospel simply doesn't teach "physical circumcision" as something necessary. Paul says that it is more important to undergo "spiritual circumcision."

I am a Christian and I recall in my childhood faint signs of stitching done on my genitals (I can never quite remember the exact terminology) -- evidence of a surgical operation done in my infancy. Unless I'm mistaken, circumcision is a policy adopted by Western governments (on medical rather than religious grounds).

Although it may be done for moral reasons, I don't see how physical circumcision really makes a difference. For me, it was just a physical operation that may or may not affect my future sexual experiences. In the Christianity, physical bodily processes aren't that important. What is important is how we use our bodies to express sentiments.

What do I mean by "spiritual circumcision?" Circumcision is a cutting of a part of the body, used as a ritual to dedicate a person to God for specific purposes, ie. moral purposes. With spiritual circumcision, we don't physically cut a part of our bodies but put to death a part of our soul (our spiritual body) for purposes ordained by God.

b) Jesus did not eat pork

Pork was considered unclean in the Old Jewish Order. After the coming of the Messiah, the cosmic order of the universe changed so that no food was ever to be forbidden again. Instead, all foods were to be accepted. The reason is simple: these foods never really made people unclean. It was merely symbolic of things to come.

c)He did not drink alcohol

Drinking alcohol is not inherently wrong. It depends whether or not you are responsible with how much you drink. Alcohol can distort your awareness and even damage your health and it's our responsibility to decide how much to drink. I could drink a few drops of alcohol without getting drunk. Have I sinned? Of course not!!! How much do I have to drink before it's wrong? It is only wrong if it becomes a bad habit and endangers my life, my health and that of others.

Some people drink small amounts of wine to see how its tastes and they do it for leisure and as a past-time. They look at it, smell it and drink it and taste it. They don't get drunk because they don't drink enough. Is that wrong?

 

[Saltmeister]

It is so strange to note that the Christian faith are unaware that Muslims believe in Prophet Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him)and they believe in his return, they would need to do more research on the Islamic religion to realise that it is the truth and the Holy QURAN has not been meddled with by human hands unlike the Bible and the Torah which has so many inconsistancies.

I am aware that Muslims believe that Jesus was a true Prophet of God.

As a Christian, I don't find this strange at all. Not everybody intends to be a scholar. Not everybody believes they need to be. As for the issue on Truth, I cannot guarantee that I will be convinced that it is the Truth!!!! I cannot promise you that. There may be a chance, but no certainty!!!!

Inconsistencies? I am not so sure about the Quran. Although I have not studied the Quran enough to know if it has internal consistencies, I do know that it contradicts the Bible. You may say that the Bible is wrong, but because the Bible explains things in so much more detail, Christians believe it is unlikely the Quran is correct. This is debatable.

You may have heard from these "notorious Christian leaders" who attack Islam that the Quran describes Haman, an official under the Persian king Xerxes as the same person as Potiphar, captain of the Pharoah's guard in Egypt. Then there's the one where Mary, mother of Jesus, is referred to as the brother of Moses and Aaron.

There may be a chance that both the Quran and Bible may have errors.

The question then, is, can either be the Truth if there have errors?

The answer depends on the underlying purpose of both texts. I have no doubt that both were intended to be the Ultimate Revelation. However, their purpose is different. The Bible's purpose, I know, is to explain the Secret of God and His Kingdom. The Quran, I am aware, reveals a legal code, of which Muslims believe is final and universal.

One may think that historical and scientific accuracy is important, but actually, it is not all that important. The reason is philosophical, and by discussing philosophy, we can decide whether or not the Bible or Quran can still be the Truth despite historical and scientific errors.

The reason why you may think historical and scientific accuracy is important is because you may think that God will somehow communicate his design of the universe to us. However, is science really that important? Does it really answer the meaning of life?

One reason why historical and scientific accuracy doesn't prove Truth is because the angels and demons God created also know the structure of the universe. This knowledge may come from a demon. The most important thing is whether the Bible or Quran are philosophically correct. Either text may be historically or scientifically correct but may be the greatest lie ever told.

The Secret is not as straightforward as you think. It is what makes you a believer in the Truth. The Secret is what leads us to God and His Kingdom. It is simply understanding the philosophical Truth about God and His Kingdom.

It is not as straightforward as saying that "Islam is the Truth" or "Christianity is the Truth" because we are Muslim or Christian, but examining the underlying philosophy and system of thought or both, comparing the two and answering the question about why one is more philosophically correct than the other. The philosophical Truth is something far deeper than can be found by comparing the individual teachings of our faiths. It is something that is sure to be right regardless of the errors that may be present in our texts.

You may ask, how can a text be imperfect if it's a message from God?

If the message comes directly from God, it has to be perfect.

If, however, it is human beings writing about their experience of God, then it may not be perfect, but it would certainly be philosophically correct if they are true believers. In this case, the text is written from inspiration.

The Bible was written by people who knew for sure they had discovered The Great Secret of God and His Kingdom and were true believers. In other words, it was human beings discovering God and His Kingdom. This would be a miracle in the sense that ordinary people discovered God (the Being of which nothing greater can be imagined), which has been a Secret for the whole history of humanity. Yet people are still able to discover Him.

If a person discovers the Secret of God, God might give him a sign to confirm it if He knows that person will do even more good works in His name. That person may go on to write about God.

The Quran, however, was sent down by God through an angel.

The approach to proving/disproving the Bible is different to that of the Quran because its purpose and its origin is different. For the Bible, we have to prove that its authors had discovered God and His Kingdom -- a discovery of something divine. With the Quran, we have to prove that it came directly from heaven.

It's up to us to really examine each other's texts.

Christians nowadays have abandoned philosophy because it seems phony and deceptive. "Philosophy" can become quite elitist unless it's used wisely, appropriately and effectively.

 

[Curios Mike]

phi·los·o·phy (f

-l

s

-f

)

n. pl. phi·los·o·phies 1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.


Most people are aware that the term is derived from two Greek words: philo (love) and sophia (wisdom). Philosophy, then, literally means "the love of wisdom."
2 Cor 3:3-14
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
KJV



I love your take on it ....


But at the same time doesnt even demons have some take on wisdom? Even on the kingdom of God, and his word?

2 Cor 11:12-15
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
NKJV

 

[Quahom1]

My view as a Christian as to why the so-called "God of Islam" is not the same as the God of the Christians, is that if God is a Spirit, then the spirit of Islam is not the same as the Spirit of Christ. That would then mean that it isn't the same God, because the same Spirit would not give us two different systems of thought. One of the two spirits/Spirits is an impostor and a liar (no offence meant)...

Hi, Salt,

Then if the God of Islam is not the same as the God of the Christians...what is the God of Judea?..

The error in your logic is that the God we all believe in is not seperate Gods, but rather the One God of Abraham. From there people changed the perspective.

Christians took their cue from the Jews, and Islam garnered its current philosophy from both Jews and Christians.

Some say it is a logical progression of Abrahamic faith.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

 

[Saltmeister]

Hi, Salt,

Then if the God of Islam is not the same as the God of the Christians...what is the God of Judea?..

The error in your logic is that the God we all believe in is not seperate Gods, but rather the One God of Abraham. From there people changed the perspective.

Christians took their cue from the Jews, and Islam garnered its current philosophy from both Jews and Christians.

Some say it is a logical progression of Abrahamic faith.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

Well, from my point of view, Judaism isn't a different system of thought, because Christianity is based on it. Therefore, the God of Israel and the Jews, the God of the Church and Christians are the same Spirit and same God.

Hey, don't think I don't know about this progression theory -- that we all worship the same God -- I've heard it all too often and it has driven me crazy. I just want a break from these monotonic statements and assertions of similarity when there are vast differences between our faiths.

Perhaps you could say that Islam and Christianity are two different projections of Judaism. Because they are different, they must then be the result of two divine beings, one of which is God's Spirit, the other of which is an anti-God spirit (a fallen angel). It may be harsh to say that one is Anti-God, but Islam and Christianity are fundamentally opposed to each other. Each claims to come from God, and that the other is an impostor.

I might add that I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Mormons, followers of certain denominations and followers of Bible-based cults follow the Spirit of Christ even though they talk and preach about Him. Just because Christ or the God of Israel is in your religion doesn't mean you follow His Spirit. It's the same whether it's with Jews, Muslims or even Christians themselves.

With all due respect . . .

Ok, this is an extreme extreme view -- perhaps I shouldn't have gone this far at all and just stuck with the nominal view that yes, we do worship the same God.

Back in the good old days of Israel, God told the Israelites to worship none other than Him. Then along comes Jesus who says, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." I think what this is saying is that it is no longer as simple as following a religion that worships the God of Israel. The one true God is more than that -- He is a God of Truth. If our concept of Him is wrong by miles, we don't belong to Him and are not true believers.

Jews, Christians, Muslims, Roman Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses may say, "we worship the God of Israel" but if their concept of God is wrong, they are not really following God's Spirit but an impostor spirit that has led them astray with a lie.

The way I expressed that view might be a bit weird, but it comes from the view that behind every religion there is a divine spirit, involved -- either God or an angel. This is what Paul calls the "powers and principalities," the spiritual rulers and angelic powers. Whether or not human beings are the originators of religions, I am certain that angels that oppose God exploit their ideas to their advantage to control our minds.

I was actually going through a thread last night on whether Paul was actually a Gnostic, and someone said that this "powers and principalities" view was actually a Gnostic concept that Paul incorporated in his epistles.

Perhaps I might start reading some Gnostic stuff to find out for myself . . . How much do you know about Gnosticism (asking Quahom)?

 

[Quahom1]

Well, from my point of view, Judaism isn't a different system of thought, because Christianity is based on it. Therefore, the God of Israel and the Jews, the God of the Church and Christians are the same Spirit and same God.

Hey, don't think I don't know about this progression theory -- that we all worship the same God -- I've heard it all too often and it has driven me crazy. I just want a break from these monotonic statements and assertions of similarity when there are vast differences between our faiths.

Perhaps you could say that Islam and Christianity are two different projections of Judaism. Because they are different, they must then be the result of two divine beings, one of which is God's Spirit, the other of which is an anti-God spirit (a fallen angel). It may be harsh to say that one is Anti-God, but Islam and Christianity are fundamentally opposed to each other. Each claims to come from God, and that the other is an impostor.

I might add that I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, Mormons, followers of certain denominations and followers of Bible-based cults follow the Spirit of Christ even though they talk and preach about Him. Just because Christ or the God of Israel is in your religion doesn't mean you follow His Spirit. It's the same whether it's with Jews, Muslims or even Christians themselves.

With all due respect . . .

Ok, this is an extreme extreme view -- perhaps I shouldn't have gone this far at all and just stuck with the nominal view that yes, we do worship the same God.

Back in the good old days of Israel, God told the Israelites to worship none other than Him. Then along comes Jesus who says, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." I think what this is saying is that it is no longer as simple as following a religion that worships the God of Israel. The one true God is more than that -- He is a God of Truth. If our concept of Him is wrong by miles, we don't belong to Him and are not true believers.

Jews, Christians, Muslims, Roman Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses may say, "we worship the God of Israel" but if their concept of God is wrong, they are not really following God's Spirit but an impostor spirit that has led them astray with a lie.

The way I expressed that view might be a bit weird, but it comes from the view that behind every religion there is a divine spirit, involved -- either God or an angel. This is what Paul calls the "powers and principalities," the spiritual rulers and angelic powers. Whether or not human beings are the originators of religions, I am certain that angels that oppose God exploit their ideas to their advantage to control our minds.

I was actually going through a thread last night on whether Paul was actually a Gnostic, and someone said that this "powers and principalities" view was actually a Gnostic concept that Paul incorporated in his epistles.

Perhaps I might start reading some Gnostic stuff to find out for myself . . . How much do you know about Gnosticism (asking Quahom)?

Gnosticism? Quite a bit, actually. In fact there are some threads here that are pretty much dedicated to it. There are also some threads that focus on Paul.

I also did not realize that some consider my version of faith a cult. That was an eye opener.

Considering that out of 6 billion people on earth, 2.3 billion profess to be Christian, 1.2 billion profess to be Muslim, a billion or so are Hindu, another billion are Bhuddists, and half a billion make up the rest of the faiths...Catholics take up 1.2 billion of the Christian sub set. For a cult, that is big chunk of change.

Also considering that Islam and Catholicism are older than any other post Judeac version of faith (including Baptists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Quakers, Amish, Anibaptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Fundementalists, Pentacostals, etc., and except for Gnostics), I don't see where, you could consider yourself perfectly in tune with God. I mean, really, how did you "corner the market?"

Do you realize how close Islam and Jehovah's Witnesses are...let alone Mormons? What about Gnostics and Pentacostals? Amish and Jews?

Fundamentalists are interesting in their outspokeness against all other faiths. Some of the youngest faiths, cry foul the loudest. And judge? Talk about judging...

Jesus never said "thou shalt become a Christian". Nor did He ever say "You must call Me God". He did say, "I am the light, the truth and the way..." and Muslims acknowledge that...they just don't call Him God.

Read the Qu'ran, you might be surprised by what you find. They say He didn't die on the cross, but they say He is the savior, the messiah. Like Jews, they wait for the messiah to come back. Mohhamed is their greatest prophet because he was the latest and greatest to turn the Arab people towards the One God. The God of Abraham. Again, it was a "logical" step. Prior to Mohhamed, the Arab people had a plethora of gods, and gins, and sprites.

Unlike Jews and Christians with attitude, and predjudice over pagans, Islam welcomed all. Mohhamed wanted Jews and Christians to join with him and Islam into one monothiestic faith.

I could go into so much detail here...but I think I made my point.

Unless you can point out a Surah, that I have missed that discounts Jesus as savior, as messiah, as the one who returns...then I'm all ears.

v/r

Q

 

[Popeyesays]

Gnosticism? Quite a bit, actually. In fact there are some threads here that are pretty much dedicated to it. There are also some threads that focus on Paul.

I also did not realize that some consider my version of faith a cult. That was an eye opener.

Read the Qu'ran, you might be surprised by what you find. They say He didn't die on the cross, but they say He is the savior, the messiah. Like Jews, they wait for the messiah to come back. Mohhamed is their greatest prophet because he was the latest and greatest to turn the Arab people towards the One God. The God of Abraham. Again, it was a "logical" step. Prior to Mohhamed, the Arab people had a plethora of gods, and gins, and sprites.

v/r

Q

Jesus is venerated throughout the Qur'an. If one does not accept Jesus, onw cannot be a muslim. But the Qur'an stipulates that Jesus was a man like other men andnot the progeny of God, though He was the Spirit of God. I don't think Jesus actually died on the cross either in onevery real sense. The SPIRIT did not die, andthat was the essence of Christ. The flesh is just dust.

 

[Bandit]

Fundamentalists are interesting in their outspokeness against all other faiths. Some of the youngest faiths, cry foul the loudest. And judge? Talk about judging...
v/r

Q

No doubt on the judging. the biggest problem there especially the evangelical type (which is several types of organizations) is they know nothing & are the most narrow shallow minded bunch of them all. the only thing they ever say is how everyone is wrong & going to hell. The more love you show them & try to expound the love of Christ, the more you get sent to hell.
Unless one bows to there specific dogmatic requests, then you go to hell & that is ALL that comes out of them. Hell & fire. it is like listening to a 3 year old that never learned any words or went to school.
Jesus said the narrow path leads to life, but the narrow path does not mean being narrow minded.

OH! the judging is horrible & LOUD.
to think the scripture says we will be judged by the same judgment we give.
I cry for the mercy of God in judgment on all flesh & cant even imagine having the edacity to SEND someone to hell or even think that way.
I see it more as hate & pride to be that way.

it is pretty bad Q & puts a real bad image on Christianity.

 

[iBrian]

Ok, this is an extreme extreme view -- perhaps I shouldn't have gone this far at all and just stuck with the nominal view that yes, we do worship the same God.

There's nothing wrong with having an "extreme extreme" view so long as it remains constructive, but it's best not to belittle other members' relationship with God - it really isn't an attitude we tolerate here.

 

[Saltmeister]

There's nothing wrong with having an "extreme extreme" view so long as it remains constructive, but it's best not to belittle other members' relationship with God - it really isn't an attitude we tolerate here.

The original point was "whether it was the same God or not." This was the point I was addressing.

I think it appeared I was trying to attack other faiths, but what I was putting forward was "the cosmic conspiracy theory," which is common to the three main monotheistic faiths.

This theory ultimately implies that there is only "one true path" and the others are wrong. I didn't say which one I thought was right, just in general terms the concept of this "cosmic conspiracy theory." Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have variations on this cosmic conspiracy theory.

Christianity's cosmic conspiracy theory has an affect on how Christians practice their religion, so I thought I would say something about it. It affects not only Christianity's stance toward other religions, but also toward itself. What I mean is that "false Christianity" can be manifested in supposedly Christian communities. I understand that not all Christians (especially laypeople) would see it this way, but it does give us some idea as to why Christian leaders and clergy behave the way they do.

Christianity's version of the cosmic conspiracy theory is that God has sent us a message, but not all of us receive it because we've deceived by so-called "impostors" that masquerade as God and His message. Our goal is to distinguish the impostors from the Truth.

This could explain why Christianity has so many sects -- ever wondered why? We tend to have a lot of cosmic conspiracy theories circulating around!!!! However, I don't think cosmic conspiracy theories are the problem. The problem is although we detect a so-called "conspiracy" we don't always deal with it the right way.

Reading the post that you're responding to, I think I may have said a few things that may have been a bit out of line, such as referring specifically to particular groups even within my faith.

My apologies if anyone was put off!!!

 

[BlaznFattyz]

i think the title of this thread is pretty lame too, not because i dont believe in discussing real life problems that currently exist, because i do as it lets the other side give its view or condemn the radicals, but because some moderators feel a need to delete factual posts from current news regarding their religion and the direction its taking. so to be in line with other mods view on freedom of information posted for the sake of discussion and getting deleted, this whole thread should be deleted as well.

 

[iBrian]

BlaznFattyz, if you don't like the way that CR is moderated - to try and preserve a balanced approach for the benefit of all members and faiths represented here - then I'm sure there are other places on the internet you would be more comfortable with.

After all, attacks on other religions will not be tolerated here, and that includes your own comments. Whether or not you agree with that policy, you are compelled to follow the CR Code of Conduct while you are here, but you are not compelled to be here.

 

[wil]

My random thoughts on this thread from one end to the other.

It is a shame one has to blast/attack another theology in attempt to strengthen their own. And I feel this information on the 'Christian' 'Leaders' questions both monikers and feel it says more about them than those they speak about.

I do believe we pray to the same God, albeit w/different names and different ways, even those that deny God.

I also believe all the paths lead to God, we are all here experiencing this, discussing this, fighting over this and it is our path to be doing this at this juncture for our growth, those we are in conflict with, those watching and those discussing.

Life is good, sometimes we just can't step far enough back, see far enough into the future to have the perspective to understand it..but lack of understanding doesn't make it not so.

namaste,

 

[rodgertutt]

A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.” (I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL suffer forever in hell.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”

He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”

He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”

I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”

He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”

I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”

I don’t think he thought it was funny.

I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.

I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain irrefutable evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.

 

[rodgertutt]

my testimony

You can access my website through Google by typing in Rodger Tutt.

Because my testimony is helping so many people, I am posting it here so it will stay on your front page for awhile if that's ok with you. The many entries in my guest book that is accessible towards the bottom of the front page on my site, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, show that the content of my testimony is helping many people.

You can access my website through Google by typing in Rodger Tutt.

MY TESTIMONY​

The idea that God lets any creature suffer endlessly has caused me more suffering than all other problems of my life combined. By the time I had reached the mission field I had hoped to have found a satisfactory answer that would justify God allowing this to happen. I didn't find such an answer. Surrounded by thousands of people, dozens of whom were dying every day and beginning an eternity of suffering in hell was too much for me.

In 1966, at age 28, it caused me to have a nervous breakdown. For several weeks I was confined to my bed in a state of terror night and day. The terror was caused by the fear of what a God I could not love or respect would do to me after I died. It took me twelve years to fully recover from the breakdown. I quickly became agnostic, for the Christian gospel and the Bible were no longer any comfort to me at all. Many evangelical friends tried to help me. They meant well, but in the end they all had only words of condemnation towards me. This added more suffering to my already intense suffering.

Gradually I began to learn that there have been, in centuries past, and still are today, a few people in the world that see a different kind of God in the Bible. They see a God who will not let any creature suffer forever. They see a God in the Bible who will change every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened, including the sufferings of Satan. I learned that a correctly (literally) translated Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. I read dozens of books, and listened to hundreds of tapes by men who believe this way and I gradually became converted to believing this way myself.

Since 1981, through my newspaper ads and my telephone ministry, I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature explaining why I believe as I do. I have also sent this evidence to hundreds of pastors and Bible school teachers. None of them have told me that they are able to refute it. I have also read eight books that were supposed to refute the evidence in favor of universalism, but none of them do. Because of this evidence, my panic attacks became less frequent until twelve years after my breakdown they ceased altogether. Now nothing gives me greater pleasure than to make this evidence available to others who have suffered because of the same problem I had even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel for themselves, and I use a substantial amount of my money and time to this end.

Because of the enormous amount of suffering the idea of "endless hell" causes in this world, I am asking you to consider the possibility that you should stop endorsing the idea that the Bible teaches it. Or, at least, let others know that there are (and have been in centuries past) people who do not think the Bible teaches it.

Many of the responses from pastors and teachers range from a mild: "The majority don't agree with you so you must be wrong", to the vicious "For every week you leave your ad in the papers, God will increase the temperature of the fires of hell for you personally".
Most are somewhere in between these remarks. But none have told me they are able to refute the evidence. And, until they can, they will not be able to stop me from sharing the good news that a correctly (literally) translated Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

A website that answers all the arguments that seem to support the idea that the Bible teaches endless suffering in hell is TENTMAKER. Although forum rules prevent me from posting forum links, you can easily Google it up. The “scholar’s corner” under “research” deals with every aspect of the subject. The more than 600 page search engine at the top of this same TENTMAKER front page is also very comprehensive regarding this subject. Just type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage, and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilation doctrines. Then click to the next page, and ten more articles will appear; and so on and so on …….

I am also going to guide you all to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is much more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle.


You can also Google up his testimony by typing in ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE

You can access my testimony through Google by typing in Rodger Tutt.

It may well be that a few members of this form or surfers will be able to benefit from the testimonies of Charles and myself.

May God's blessing rest with your spirit!
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28

 

[Abubakar]

A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.” (I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL suffer forever in hell.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”

He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”

He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”

I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”

He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”

I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”

I don’t think he thought it was funny.

I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.

I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain irrefutable evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.

Sallam aleykum Roger

I read your posting with some interest and a growing sense of disbelief.

Firstly who or what is a Muslim Missionary, I have never come accross someone who I would class as a Muslim Missionary.

There is NO teaching in Islam that if you are not a Muslim you will go to hell. We will all be judged by God and will all be dependant on his grace to enter heaven.

In Islam there are differing schools of thought over whether Heaven is eternal or not.

I trust you will look at your false claims and generalisations about Islam and educate yourself as to the real position.

Peace