Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Re: my testimony
Rodger Tutt, welcome to CR.
Here's what I'm thinking.
People can often allow themselves to be manipulated by ideas of going to hell. I am led to think that the point is not whether an "eternal hell" exists, or whether people spend part of their eternal lives in hell and are "liberated" for some reason. Why should we assume anything of the afterlife? Why not just hope for the best, go out seeking the best of things, considering all the things that have been presented to us, ie. religion?
In life there are lots of questions. I doubt whether any of us can answer them all. I wouldn't be surprised if there were ten times more questions than we could hope to answer in our lifetime. But for a lot of things there is really no answer, because it's an open question that beckons us, not to answer it, but to appreciate it for what it means. The answer could be a yes or no. We must appreciate the possibility of both the yes and the no being true, though obviously it can't be a yes and no at the same time.
It's not a question of whether dualities and binary opposites exist. It is perhaps not possible to know one way or the other. But whether or not we can answer that question, it's important to appreciate both possibilities. Does one have to know for certain, who, what, when and where God is, why He is the way He is and how it affects us? Is that possible? Can we prove one theory and disprove another? Do we need to? If we can't, what does that mean? Are we lost?
I think, therefore, that the most important thing one must do if one is to be accepted by God is to appreciate what it all means. Don't just limit yourself to exploring one religion, but expose yourself to the whole spectrum (well, only if you have that much time to start with). The more religions you know, the more you will come to appreciate where you are in relation to God. The more you appreciate Him, the closer you get to Him.
Ok, explore religions, but my advice is this. Don't spread yourself too thinly. Get deep into a religion and don't stop getting deeper. You want to get to know that religion as well as you possibly can. But don't just read books. Think for yourself. Explore the religion "outside the box" so that you can understand what it means "inside the box." You can't know what a religion means if you don't know what it does not mean.
So you must now be guessing that "failure to appreciate" is what keeps us apart from God. Moreover, would this also mean that God will shut us out of His realm forever? But here's the thing. Some of us don't really care about God. We're in search of our own identity, but not concerned about God or the other people that belong to Him. But some of us do care about God, we're in search of our own identity, but we reconcile that with where we fit in with our concept of God. People like that could come from a whole range of different religions. I guess we could appreciate the idea that people stayed in hell forever, or appreciate the alternative possibility that it didn't. It sounds awfully harsh if people ended up in hell forever, though it also sounds indecisive of God to have a "temporary abode" to give people time to think about their destiny.
But all this leads to one thing -- it sounds a lot like a relationship. You either belong to God or you don't. Ironically, you can turn up when the party has already started. Of course, people mucking around in a party probably couldn't care less when you turned up, or even that you turn up at all. But God might care. To Him it's personal because He knows your thoughts. It must torment Him a lot to know our thoughts.
Is hell eternal? Should it be?
The way I see it, it's best not to answer the question at all. If you go with the thinking that hell is eternal, you end up thinking that God is cruel and harsh. If you think that God doesn't mind as long as you're happy, then you're assuming God doesn't take it that personally. Either way, you allow yourself to be manipulated by the idea that you either get one chance to connect with God (this life) or that He allows you to come to the party late. Either way, you assume God doesn't take it personally.
It takes two people to make a relationship. That's what happens between a man and woman. If you say God sends people to hell forever, there is certainly a chance that some of the people God created won't be appreciated for who they are and don't get the chance to be recognised by God as His own. But if you say that you can make up your mind later, then you're saying God doesn't mind whether or not you appreciate Him now, as long as you do it eventually.
But it might go both ways. God doesn't like manipulations. He wants real people. Real souls.
Debates about hell being eternal or not put emphasis on making rules about how hell works. But I disagree. It should be about appreciation of people and also of God. God would want to be appreciated as much as we do. God Himself goes to hell when He sends people to hell. Hell is a condition where people aren't appreciated for what they are -- a place that reflects dysfunctional relationships. Heaven is the place of appreciation. From the point of view of the people in "hell," it is not they who are in hell, but God who is in hell, because God failed to appreciate them for who they were. It's not just people who go to hell. God has to go to hell too. God is in hell for the people who are in hell. Hell is a kind of "reality" if you follow my thinking. It's more of a property of one's relationship with God, rather than just the person. There is a part of God that will go to hell and there is a part of God that will go to heaven. It's about where the heart is.
But once again -- is hell eternal? Who really knows? Why not just appreciate the possibilities, rather than choosing a particular answer? Hell is personal, so let's not start making it impersonal by manipulating ourselves either way.
Let's stop writing the rules for hell. Let's start being real people. Real souls.
Rodger Tutt, welcome to CR.
Here's what I'm thinking.
People can often allow themselves to be manipulated by ideas of going to hell. I am led to think that the point is not whether an "eternal hell" exists, or whether people spend part of their eternal lives in hell and are "liberated" for some reason. Why should we assume anything of the afterlife? Why not just hope for the best, go out seeking the best of things, considering all the things that have been presented to us, ie. religion?
In life there are lots of questions. I doubt whether any of us can answer them all. I wouldn't be surprised if there were ten times more questions than we could hope to answer in our lifetime. But for a lot of things there is really no answer, because it's an open question that beckons us, not to answer it, but to appreciate it for what it means. The answer could be a yes or no. We must appreciate the possibility of both the yes and the no being true, though obviously it can't be a yes and no at the same time.
It's not a question of whether dualities and binary opposites exist. It is perhaps not possible to know one way or the other. But whether or not we can answer that question, it's important to appreciate both possibilities. Does one have to know for certain, who, what, when and where God is, why He is the way He is and how it affects us? Is that possible? Can we prove one theory and disprove another? Do we need to? If we can't, what does that mean? Are we lost?
I think, therefore, that the most important thing one must do if one is to be accepted by God is to appreciate what it all means. Don't just limit yourself to exploring one religion, but expose yourself to the whole spectrum (well, only if you have that much time to start with). The more religions you know, the more you will come to appreciate where you are in relation to God. The more you appreciate Him, the closer you get to Him.
Ok, explore religions, but my advice is this. Don't spread yourself too thinly. Get deep into a religion and don't stop getting deeper. You want to get to know that religion as well as you possibly can. But don't just read books. Think for yourself. Explore the religion "outside the box" so that you can understand what it means "inside the box." You can't know what a religion means if you don't know what it does not mean.
So you must now be guessing that "failure to appreciate" is what keeps us apart from God. Moreover, would this also mean that God will shut us out of His realm forever? But here's the thing. Some of us don't really care about God. We're in search of our own identity, but not concerned about God or the other people that belong to Him. But some of us do care about God, we're in search of our own identity, but we reconcile that with where we fit in with our concept of God. People like that could come from a whole range of different religions. I guess we could appreciate the idea that people stayed in hell forever, or appreciate the alternative possibility that it didn't. It sounds awfully harsh if people ended up in hell forever, though it also sounds indecisive of God to have a "temporary abode" to give people time to think about their destiny.
But all this leads to one thing -- it sounds a lot like a relationship. You either belong to God or you don't. Ironically, you can turn up when the party has already started. Of course, people mucking around in a party probably couldn't care less when you turned up, or even that you turn up at all. But God might care. To Him it's personal because He knows your thoughts. It must torment Him a lot to know our thoughts.
Is hell eternal? Should it be?
The way I see it, it's best not to answer the question at all. If you go with the thinking that hell is eternal, you end up thinking that God is cruel and harsh. If you think that God doesn't mind as long as you're happy, then you're assuming God doesn't take it that personally. Either way, you allow yourself to be manipulated by the idea that you either get one chance to connect with God (this life) or that He allows you to come to the party late. Either way, you assume God doesn't take it personally.
It takes two people to make a relationship. That's what happens between a man and woman. If you say God sends people to hell forever, there is certainly a chance that some of the people God created won't be appreciated for who they are and don't get the chance to be recognised by God as His own. But if you say that you can make up your mind later, then you're saying God doesn't mind whether or not you appreciate Him now, as long as you do it eventually.
But it might go both ways. God doesn't like manipulations. He wants real people. Real souls.
Debates about hell being eternal or not put emphasis on making rules about how hell works. But I disagree. It should be about appreciation of people and also of God. God would want to be appreciated as much as we do. God Himself goes to hell when He sends people to hell. Hell is a condition where people aren't appreciated for what they are -- a place that reflects dysfunctional relationships. Heaven is the place of appreciation. From the point of view of the people in "hell," it is not they who are in hell, but God who is in hell, because God failed to appreciate them for who they were. It's not just people who go to hell. God has to go to hell too. God is in hell for the people who are in hell. Hell is a kind of "reality" if you follow my thinking. It's more of a property of one's relationship with God, rather than just the person. There is a part of God that will go to hell and there is a part of God that will go to heaven. It's about where the heart is.
But once again -- is hell eternal? Who really knows? Why not just appreciate the possibilities, rather than choosing a particular answer? Hell is personal, so let's not start making it impersonal by manipulating ourselves either way.
Let's stop writing the rules for hell. Let's start being real people. Real souls.
come on tell me the truth! fundamentals meaning the basic, for example in Islam, to read & recite the Qu'ran, to pray 5 times a day, to bow down & worship one god and nothing else. So next time, you hear on the media, these are Christian, Jewish or Muslim or anything.. etc. fundamentalist have done violent things or are saying things by speech or action, it is clear that they are not fundamentalist, no so what are they?? easy they are really Kaffirs or Kaffara,
