Attacks on islam by Christian Leaders

Chalice said:
I have several copies of the koran, all given to me by good muslim people who purchased them for me at their mosques - therefore I believe them to be reliable texts that represent the Korah in english.

I am a Christian. I sat down to read my Koran. It surprised me that some texts accuse Christians and Jews of talking behind the backs of Muslems about how bad their are, and then speaking to their faces nicely. I was also surprised that the Koran accuses jews and christians of having an alterior motive to convert muslims to their own faiths, as if this were a surprise - christianity and ancient judaism were both "evangelical" faiths since before Islam existed - the goal of monotheism is to get others to "join up" and know the One God in the "correct" way according to them.

I was also offended that the koran refers to jews and christians as "people of the book", and claims that we can not follow God's prophets correctly enough, which is why God is angry with us, and had to send another prophet to correct everything. There are portions of the koran that state that if the knowledge of the koran is rejected by jews and christians, eventually a muslim must realize that they will never convert anyway, and since their soul is lost, they have no value as people and it is ok to destroy them. The koran also has portions on "jihad" and I am sorry to tell you this, but in my koran, I understand the jihad text to be instruction on war attacks against those who do not accept Islam as their religion.

Of course, to be fair, I also sat down and read the old testament - it instructs the jews to march into pagan lands, take their land in the name of the Jewish God and destroy everything, even the goods. So maybe ancient religions just took over each other's land by war in the name of their deities. Christianity never teaches this in the New Testament - the war is inside each person, and the battle is between Satan and God over your soul. You only can choose who you want to be with. It is not political or public, it is personal, and private.

I found my english version of the koran gramatically clumsy, and I am not saying this to be mean. I have a degree in English/Brittish lit, and it does not read smoothly, because the translators, more than likely do not own English as their first language and are doing the best they can with a foreign language. When I read the koran, I want to just sit down to the computer and make the text more smooth and gracefull. I also wish I could take out the parts that teach muslims that it is ok to kill me because I am not muslim.

I have many muslim friends and I love them very much. I am "ok" that they are not Christians as I am. I wish that the koran would reflect this type of love toward me, because most of my muslim friends do - it is natural to live and let live, and to love others.

I am personally very afraid of what happened in London a few weeks back, with a tape of AlQeda coming on CNN and saying that there are more plans to blow up America and London. I hope that the muslim world never experiences western "cell" groups that no one can find, who enter their society as "friends", and then blow up innocent housewives who cart their many crying children to the grocery store for milk and diapers, or people who go to work so their children can have birthday gifts, or the mortgage can be paid.

I know the muslim people are good of heart - I only know "good" muslim people, and I love them. I would like to know if there are any muslims out there who would like to translate an "American" version of the Koran (as we have an "American Standard version " of the Bible - it would read smoothly and beautifully, and it would be much more gentle with the passages that "appear" to teach that ending lives of non-muslims is "ok". This would help alot and spread the peace that Islam is supposed to be.

The story of Abraham and his 2 wives, sarah and hagar teach that both families, Jews/Christians and Muslims should dwell in peace inside Abraham's tent, for God tells Hagar to go back to Abraham's tent with Ishmael and dwell there in peace. She can not because Sarah will not allow it, which is unfortunate. But I want to dwell in peace with the muslim world, and do not believe you are in exile from the Abrahamic family. Please let us live in peace and love. I do not know what christian leaders say, and I dont know what really happens with muslim leaders - but I do know what the koran teaches and says, and I do know that NY and London have been blown up. That is enough for me. Forget the leaders. we need a grass roots effort for peace, and we need to re-teach everyone love for one another, and re-translating the koran so that at least in English speaking countries, the Koran would be understood as a book that teaches muslims to love and tolerate non-muslims.
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Chrsitianity isint all about pace too :)

Jesus didnt come with peace but with a sword , or something like that , what are you thoughts of the predictions and scientific evidense that theQu'Ran provide?
 
AbdAlRahman said:
Chrsitianity isint all about pace too :)

Jesus didnt come with peace but with a sword , or something like that , what are you thoughts of the predictions and scientific evidense that theQu'Ran provide?
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Jesus Christ is all about peace, love, and truth for everyone based on the passages below, mostly from John the Baptist. Too bad we cant all love each other instead of attacking each other.


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.


Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.


The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen
 
Chalice said:
I have several copies of the koran, all given to me by good muslim people who purchased them for me at their mosques - therefore I believe them to be reliable texts that represent the Korah in english.

I am a Christian. I sat down to read my Koran. It surprised me that some texts accuse Christians and Jews of talking behind the backs of Muslems about how bad their are, and then speaking to their faces nicely. I was also surprised that the Koran accuses jews and christians of having an alterior motive to convert muslims to their own faiths, as if this were a surprise - christianity and ancient judaism were both "evangelical" faiths since before Islam existed - the goal of monotheism is to get others to "join up" and know the One God in the "correct" way according to them.

I was also offended that the koran refers to jews and christians as "people of the book", and claims that we can not follow God's prophets correctly enough, which is why God is angry with us, and had to send another prophet to correct everything. There are portions of the koran that state that if the knowledge of the koran is rejected by jews and christians, eventually a muslim must realize that they will never convert anyway, and since their soul is lost, they have no value as people and it is ok to destroy them. The koran also has portions on "jihad" and I am sorry to tell you this, but in my koran, I understand the jihad text to be instruction on war attacks against those who do not accept Islam as their religion.

Of course, to be fair, I also sat down and read the old testament - it instructs the jews to march into pagan lands, take their land in the name of the Jewish God and destroy everything, even the goods. So maybe ancient religions just took over each other's land by war in the name of their deities. Christianity never teaches this in the New Testament - the war is inside each person, and the battle is between Satan and God over your soul. You only can choose who you want to be with. It is not political or public, it is personal, and private.

I found my english version of the koran gramatically clumsy, and I am not saying this to be mean. I have a degree in English/Brittish lit, and it does not read smoothly, because the translators, more than likely do not own English as their first language and are doing the best they can with a foreign language. When I read the koran, I want to just sit down to the computer and make the text more smooth and gracefull. I also wish I could take out the parts that teach muslims that it is ok to kill me because I am not muslim.

I have many muslim friends and I love them very much. I am "ok" that they are not Christians as I am. I wish that the koran would reflect this type of love toward me, because most of my muslim friends do - it is natural to live and let live, and to love others.

I am personally very afraid of what happened in London a few weeks back, with a tape of AlQeda coming on CNN and saying that there are more plans to blow up America and London. I hope that the muslim world never experiences western "cell" groups that no one can find, who enter their society as "friends", and then blow up innocent housewives who cart their many crying children to the grocery store for milk and diapers, or people who go to work so their children can have birthday gifts, or the mortgage can be paid.

I know the muslim people are good of heart - I only know "good" muslim people, and I love them. I would like to know if there are any muslims out there who would like to translate an "American" version of the Koran (as we have an "American Standard version " of the Bible - it would read smoothly and beautifully, and it would be much more gentle with the passages that "appear" to teach that ending lives of non-muslims is "ok". This would help alot and spread the peace that Islam is supposed to be.

The story of Abraham and his 2 wives, sarah and hagar teach that both families, Jews/Christians and Muslims should dwell in peace inside Abraham's tent, for God tells Hagar to go back to Abraham's tent with Ishmael and dwell there in peace. She can not because Sarah will not allow it, which is unfortunate. But I want to dwell in peace with the muslim world, and do not believe you are in exile from the Abrahamic family. Please let us live in peace and love. I do not know what christian leaders say, and I dont know what really happens with muslim leaders - but I do know what the koran teaches and says, and I do know that NY and London have been blown up. That is enough for me. Forget the leaders. we need a grass roots effort for peace, and we need to re-teach everyone love for one another, and re-translating the koran so that at least in English speaking countries, the Koran would be understood as a book that teaches muslims to love and tolerate non-muslims.
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Hello Chalice,

Many liberals and conservatives alike are bashing Christianity and Islam. The truth is even though Christians like this bash Islam, Islams do the same thing in the middle east. Muslims by the way burn Bible in the East and do horrible things to churches and christians. In my opinion these are just as worse, if not even worse to what christians do to muslims. Yet many liberals ignore these horrible acts comited by muslims to christians just because they are on the other side. Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing you if being such a person but I just want to keep things balanced and correct, both christians and muslims do horrible things to each other. They have been doing these stuff for over a thousand years to each other.

Then we have Christians, who bash the religion of islam. The truth is judeo-christianity teaches the same things as islam. In Leviticus it says you must put anyone who does not believe in the same God to death, and to kill adulters and homosexuals. Yet these christians don't follow these concepts in their own religion and dismiss these acts.

Don't get me wrong, I do think both christians and muslims should reject the various verses of violence in their religious books. But for a Christians to say that a Muslim is a more violent person is illogical because christianity teaches the same thing.
 
Just to let you know I've moved this thread to the Monotheism board.

I don't see how this thread benefits the Islam board, or even the Christianity board, hence the move to a possibly a more neutral venue to discuss the issues raised
 
On reading these articles of the attacks by the Christian Leaders towards the Islamic Religion is unacceptable,it seems that they have little or no knowledge of the Muslim religion,Islam is a religion of Monotheism,the belief of One God (ALLAH,this name of God is the true name of God which is said by the Arab Christians and said by Prophet Jesus(may peace be upon him) in the ARAMIAC language),so how can Frankiln Graham say the God of Islam is not the same God,Islam so strongly condemns violence towards innocent people,if muslims are committing such attacks they are not obviously following religion according to there beliefs.
The Islamic belief is of One God,belief in all the Prophets,especially the belief on the four main Prophets whom God sent down His Divine message Prophet Moses(Torah),Prophet David (Psalms),Prophet Jesus(Bible),and Prophet Muhammed(the Quran),Belief on the Angels especially the four main Archangels,Gabriel(Jibrael in arabic),Michael(Mikael),Izrael,Raphael(Izraphael)and the Day of Judgement.
Franklin Graham has also commented about the treatment of women, he should note that pre-Islamic times when a new born baby girl was born she would be buried alive,the Holy Prophet Muhammed(may peace be upon him) stopped this barbaric act which was the norm before Islam,he would cry profusely when any of these barbaric stories were narrated to him.
And Franklin Graham is refering to women being forced to wear the veil,he should think again about one of the women pious woman in religion the Virgin Mary(Mariam in arabic),she has set an example to all women regardless of faith,in how to preserve modesty,there is simply no debate about this.
It is so strange to note that the Christian faith are unaware that Muslims believe in Prophet Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him)and they believe in his return, they would need to do more research on the Islamic religion to realise that it is the truth and the Holy QURAN has not been meddled with by human hands unlike the Bible and the Torah which has so many inconsistancies.
The attack by Benny Hinn is absolutely absurd, to say Muslims are evil and devils,and that God is on our side,i would really like to ask what has done so righteous that God is on his side.The masses of 'so called Christians' dont or haven't followed the ways of Prophet Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him),a) Christian men do not circumcise,b)Jesus Christ(may peace be upon him) did not eat pork,c)He did not drink intoxicant(alcohol),d)sex before marriage is not allowed,d)homosexuality is not allowed,e) women to dress modestly( to follow the modesty of the Virgin Mary),the list could be endless.The lawlessness of the masses across the western world should be considered,no one is following the way of Prophet Jesus christ(may peace be upon him). and it is very wrong to attack muslims because of foreign policies set out by the west, the religion of Islam should not be attacked when it is followed by millions of people for the past 1400 years and is still the fastest growing religion in the world.
 
Hello Samk, and welcome to CR. ;)

They don't understand what they are talking about, nor do they represent mainstream Christianity (by a long shot). And you make a point when you say that those committing atrocities in the name of Islam are not following the faith, or the belief's requirements. Not all Christians are very Christianly either.

Christians do understand that in Islam, Jesus is a prophet, however in Christianity He is also God, and the Savior. Therein lies the difference. Benny Hinn is an idiot.

In aramaic, Jesus called God the Father, Abba, not Allah.

I do not see how you can consider the Bible or the Torah to be inconsistent, when they both offer Man hope. There is nothing inconsistent about that.

Miriam (Mary), was never "veiled". Her head was covered (as was the custom of the time). The "veiling" of women is also a pre-Islamic, and Arabic custom. Christian women are encouraged to remain modest in their dress, and to have their head covered when praying or prophesying, but not to have their face veiled. So there is obviously debate about it.

Christian men are not required to be circumsized, though a great majority are. Peter was told that "pork" can be eaten, and that what goes into the body is not the issue for it leaves the body, but what comes from the heart and out of the mouth is what is unclean.

Jesus not only drank alcohol (he was called a glutton and a drunkard by His enemies), but He made the best wine in the world at a wedding in Cana.

Jesus re-emphasised that fornication of any kind was wrong and unhealthy, but that sex in the marriage was perfect and bonding, and a gift between the two in union. He did not attack nor judge fornicators, ever. He did go after the self righteous however, with zeal. ;)

The policies of the West were negotiated with the leaders of the Middle East; you can't blame the West for that. One has to look at the leaders of the Middle East for the wrongs done to the people.

And it was members from the Middle East that started this "holy war" against the West, without regard for the price the people of the Middle East would end up paying (as well as the rest of the world).

I believe you also need to read up on your Abrahamic faiths, as there are apparent gaps in the knowledge you have.

As I stated before, these so called "Christian Leaders", are not speaking for the majority, nor does the majority listen to them. We make our own decisions and choices.

I hope this has been enlightening for you.

v/r

Q
 
I think Muslim people will respect Christianity more if they see fewer pieces of American-made military hardware pointed at them and their children. Our subsidy of cooperative dictatorships is also deplorable.

What does this have to do with the topic? Well, the US Government's immoral foreign policy against muslim nations is carried out more easily with the support of Christian Crusaders. Likewise, the Christian Crusaders' arguments are reinforced by our foreign policy.

If either of these two would stop participating in the lie, we would see progress. But until then, the majority of America will not scrutinize our policies enough to bring change. And the fingerpointing and holier-than-thou dynamic will continue.
 
Faithfulservant said:
http://www.ondoctrine.com/10tbn.htm

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-heresy.html

both of these links are pages of heretical comments made by these very visible people. Like I said.. pretty scary stuff.
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How are any of those comments "scary"? It looks like they are just silly doctrinal positions you don't agree with. I certainly hope you didn't intend to endorse the anti-Catholic stance of the second site you linked. Take a look at what they have to say about Jack Van Impe and the "end times Harlot" (gag).

This "heresy hunting," ironically, is a big part of what people of non-Evangelical faiths find so distrubing about the direction so much of mainstream Christianity is headed.
 
hmm anyone that says they will curse someone in the name of God for whatever action they commit.. proves themself scary to me.

I did not say.. oh look at what van impe said.. hes scary..

If you are going to find issue with something I said.. take into consideration that in this case its just a view and not a theology.

Hmm Hinn claiming to be a mini messiah.. or that he can raise the dead are things I take issue with.

I especially take issue with how they fleece money from people.. but if thats your thing then by all means support it.

I believe we are held accountable with how we promote and represent Christ and I believe its perfectly fine to hunt the heretics so that the Church does not fall by the wayside or be abused by greed.

but like I said if this is what you support then have at it.. I find it mostly disturbing.
 
Did I say I support their ministries?

NO. I did not.

And I don't support Hinn or any other TV preacher.

However, these "heresy hunters" calling the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon is no less troubling than the statements they've compiled about the TV preachers and much more troubling than most of those statements.
 
MattWolf said:
I think Muslim people will respect Christianity more if they see fewer pieces of American-made military hardware pointed at them and their children. Our subsidy of cooperative dictatorships is also deplorable.

What does this have to do with the topic? Well, the US Government's immoral foreign policy against muslim nations is carried out more easily with the support of Christian Crusaders. Likewise, the Christian Crusaders' arguments are reinforced by our foreign policy.

If either of these two would stop participating in the lie, we would see progress. But until then, the majority of America will not scrutinize our policies enough to bring change. And the fingerpointing and holier-than-thou dynamic will continue.
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I'm thinking of four airplanes flying into our cities on a one way trip...I've never heard of deplorable Americans attempting to commit the same maneuver over in the Arab world.

The original topic was about Christian leaders attacks on Islam. Not "let's get into politics about who is to blame over what".

Frankly, a simplistic view of how life should be, doesn't exist. People are not simple.

As I stated, the "Christian leaders" do not mime the opinions of America in general. If you are looking for a fight where none should be, try running for office...you'll be in great company.

Q
 
Abogado del Diablo said:
Did I say I support their ministries?

NO. I did not.

And I don't support Hinn or any other TV preacher.

However, these "heresy hunters" calling the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon is no less troubling than the statements they've compiled about the TV preachers and much more troubling than most of those statements.
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Yes and I also never said those things.
 
Quahom1 said:
I'm thinking of four airplanes flying into our cities on a one way trip...I've never heard of deplorable Americans attempting to commit the same maneuver over in the Arab world.

The original topic was about Christian leaders attacks on Islam. Not "let's get into politics about who is to blame over what".

Frankly, a simplistic view of how life should be, doesn't exist. People are not simple.

As I stated, the "Christian leaders" do not mime the opinions of America in general. If you are looking for a fight where none should be, try running for office...you'll be in great company.

Q
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I will avoid enlightening you about "deplorable Americans" in this political context for fear of sustaining a political track.

I don't understand the rest of your post other than an attempt to bait me into an argument with a mod. So I will simply say you've misconstrued my post and leave it at that.
 
Let me ask a question.. Do you ever use a resource that you may not totally agree with.. in order to learn or gain a bit of understanding? Do you ever read something that you take bits and pieces from in order to build a case but there are bits and pieces that you do not agree with and you disregard..?

example: When you became a parent did you not take bits and pieces of parenting skills your parents used but others you disregarded because you did not agree with them? It does not make them bad parents it just makes them imperfect. Like we all are.

Just because I endorse something does not necessarily mean I agree with everything.. I guess I take it for granted that people understand that because they do it themselves.. next time I will be more clear.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Let me ask a question.. Do you ever use a resource that you may not totally agree with.. in order to learn or gain a bit of understanding? Do you ever read something that you take bits and pieces from in order to build a case but there are bits and pieces that you do not agree with and you disregard..?
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I take ideas from different traditions, cultures and disciplines all the time. Of course, sometimes it results in my being the subject of a truly offensive and closed-minded attack.

For example, I remember this very interesting quote I offered from C.G. Jung . . .:(
 
MattWolf said:
I will avoid enlightening you about "deplorable Americans" in this political context for fear of sustaining a political track.

I don't understand the rest of your post other than an attempt to bait me into an argument with a mod. So I will simply say you've misconstrued my post and leave it at that.
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LOL, considering that I am a mod, I doubt you are being baited on anything. You made your opinion known, and I replied in kind. The problem is not me, if you don't like my response.

But you are right, our conversation is ended.

v/r

Q
 
Yes and I believe your name was involved as well. lol thats a long memory you have.. I had forgotten about Jung..

We are definitely not on the same level on some things but the story of your child humanized you to me and none of what you believe seems so very disturbing to me anymore because I recognize myself in you at a point in my life.. I need to add that I do not feel that I feel Im in a higher place than you.. I feel that you would take it that way...

Im asking that you not search for the boogie man where He is not. If you read any of my posts I do not address Catholics or their faith in prophecy I know they love Jesus Christ very much.. We are the same just believe things a little differently. They are part of the same body of Christ as I am and I wont say anything to cause them to stumble just because I believe differently.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Yes and I believe your name was involved as well. lol thats a long memory you have.. I had forgotten about Jung..

We are definitely not on the same level on some things but the story of your child humanized you to me and none of what you believe seems so very disturbing to me anymore because I recognize myself in you at a point in my life..
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So if someone says something disturbing to you it's okay to lash out at them?

I suspect I disagree with you on several things as well (though you remind me of the way I was early on as an Evangelical), but I wouldn't call you "anti-christ" or your ideas "trash." I would try to have a reasoned discussion and see if there isn't some place of agreement. And ironically, the attitude that things that don't jibe with what one believes are "anti-christ" and "trash" (and so one won't even read or discuss them), really doesn't lend itself to a discussion forum hosted at a site called "comparative religion."
 
I appreciate that threads can deviate somewhat, but I don't think comparing Faith in this regard is going to lead to anything constructive.
 
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