How do you choose your religion?

[smkolins]

Interesting post. I kind of agree with most of it, I suppose that if one is to take religion as your whole life then gods knowledge and teaching is all one needs to know. I would question weather or not this is segregating life into a single component of the many, what I mean is; should we not learn from gods entire creation as well as from god himself?

Everything has within it a sign of God placed there for our guidance and training - and everything can also obscure our recognition of God. One of the greatest forms of this dualism is understanding itself - particularly in people we hold up as our guides based on popular appreciation.

But yes, existence itself is a great Revelation from which we learn. And it can be a great barrier as well. But in the original statements, it was not said we should ignore everything - we should not over value what everyone says about the truth, rather than see it for ourselves, but be mindful that we have preconceptions coloring our understanding even if we are not explicitly being told such and so by others.

... life is my bible, I learn of god by what is here and through contemplating that which lies beyond, there is no difference between the seeker and the seer.

"Love is a veil betwixt the lover and the loved one;
More than this I am not permitted to tell."

Your last paragraph was true to purity, but I wonder if by making oneself purer we are creating the opposite in the world, in a similar way to ‘each action creates its equal and opposite’ – universal balance and all that! After all Jesus was pure and evil grew around him and then closed in on him, I wonder if there is a pattern to this?

I don't see an examination of purity - I see us unencombering ourselves of everyone else's opinions which are passed off as reality by the norms of society. I don't see seperating ourselves from the world, just what everyone thinks is true about the world. Perhaps I misunderstand how you see this and you can explain?

 

[_Z_]

Smkolins, hi



I totally agree with your explanation! It is all in our discernment of god’s truth amongst things – thanx. You explained everything well except the last quote if I may say, it is difficult to explain though. What I mean is – to put it in black and white:



Think of the yin yang and universal balance, there is to begin with the same amount of white as black – good and evil. If someone then commits an evil act [like {the metaphor} for example eve consuming the apple], it increases the black. This would then ‘automatically’ create a bounce back effect of someone ‘of the white’ becoming more good. In the extreme then, if someone like Jesus is extremely white, it would squeeze the black to its smallest yet strongest extreme, this would then gather its focus on that which caused this effect i.e. attack the lord of white/good. All in all then, if one has many good people in e.g. monasteries then you have an equal amount of evil people lurking down dark alleyways! Most importantly these ‘evil’ people would be taken or even driven down this route, this is why it is important to balance good and evil personally and socially. This is what I meant by ‘each action causes its equal and opposite’, I just took a scientific notion and looked at its form as a ‘universal principle’!



This is called the ‘feather of maat’ of which the ancient Egyptians believed, and the god Anubis taught, it has its similars in many traditions and to follow it is kind of like Egyptian Tao. When Christianity arrived, it made people sway towards the white/good, yet evil did not end or even diminish, it simply changed shape e.g. the inquisition, an estimated 9,000,000 people around Europe burned as heretics.


thanx

Z

 

[kabir]

What you experience spiritually is naturally just part of who you are already. Whether or not you can find some outward organisation that reflects what you believe in your heart is another story. I never have, but I don't really need that or look for it anyway... I dial direct.

jack

 

[I am free]

Wow! that is such a wonderful thought Kabir

 

[Popeyesays]

What you experience spiritually is naturally just part of who you are already. Whether or not you can find some outward organisation that reflects what you believe in your heart is another story. I never have, but I don't really need that or look for it anyway... I dial direct.

jack
www.jackmctamney.com

I don't believe one can "dial direct" to God. God is, in His own Essence, not knowable to man. He exists outside of all Creation, all of Creation is contingent on God, God is contingent upon nothing.

Therefore all one can know of God is what the Teachers tell us.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

I don't believe one can "dial direct" to God. God is, in His own Essence, not knowable to man. He exists outside of all Creation, all of Creation is contingent on God, God is contingent upon nothing.

Therefore all one can know of God is what the Teachers tell us.

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott,

Do Baha'i not believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the world today? Or do Baha'i believe that the Holy Spirit only acts through the Manifestation and now the Administrative Order? One can't have an authentic personal experience of God?

lunamoth

 

[arthra]

Hi Scott,

Do Baha'i not believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the world today? Or do Baha'i believe that the Holy Spirit only acts through the Manifestation and now the Administrative Order? One can't have an authentic personal experience of God?

lunamoth

Here is what Abdul-Baha said:

Question.--What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.--The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits--that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.

_________________________

Baha'is believe in Divine Guidance through the Covenant of Baha'u'llah..

The Lord of the universe hath never raised up a prophet nor hath He sent down a Book unless He hath established His covenant with all men, calling for their acceptance of the next Revelation and of the next Book; inasmuch as the outpourings of His bounty are ceaseless and without limit.
         
("Selections from the Writings of the Báb", [rev. ed.] (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982), p. 87)

 

[Popeyesays]

Hi Scott,

Do Baha'i not believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the world today? Or do Baha'i believe that the Holy Spirit only acts through the Manifestation and now the Administrative Order? One can't have an authentic personal experience of God?

lunamoth

Hi back atcha Luna,

Sure the Holy Spirit is active in the world and individuals may experience as they always have, but the Spirit is not God Himself in His Essence.

If you look at the avatar next to my name you will see the Baha`i "ring symbol". This is a graphic depiction of Creation.

The stars are the Manifestations.
The top line is God in His Essence.
The middle line is the Manifestations together.
The bottom line is "Humankind".

The vertical line is the Holy Spirit connecting all.

If God is the Sun, we are warmed by the raysof the sun which are the Holy Spirit. If we were warmed directly by the sun itself we would be overwhelmed and consumed.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

Here is what Abdul-Baha said:

Question.--What is the Holy Spirit?

Answer.--The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits--that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror.

_________________________

Baha'is believe in Divine Guidance through the Covenant of Baha'u'llah..

The Lord of the universe hath never raised up a prophet nor hath He sent down a Book unless He hath established His covenant with all men, calling for their acceptance of the next Revelation and of the next Book; inasmuch as the outpourings of His bounty are ceaseless and without limit.
         
("Selections from the Writings of the Báb", [rev. ed.] (Haifa: Bahá'í World Centre, 1982), p. 87)

Hi Art,

Thank you for the quotes. I am familiar with these words, although I can't say that I really understand Abdul Baha fully here. What I was asking Scott was whether he, as a Baha'i, believed that the Holy Spirit touches him personally, whether his soul can be directly informed by God, even if this can only be "trusted" if it conforms to written Revelation. This just happens to be a topic I find particularly interesting.

BTW, I've noticed that for quite a while now you never use your usual friendly greetings with me. I'm guessing that now you consider me an enemy of the Baha'is, here only to attack. Please let me assure you that I still have a lot of love and respect for the Baha'i Faith. I have my criticisms, a lot of disillusionment and some pain, and also probably just plain ignorance about some aspects of the Faith, but I am not against the Baha'i Faith.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[lunamoth]

Hi back atcha Luna,

Sure the Holy Spirit is active in the world and individuals may experience as they always have, but the Spirit is not God Himself in His Essence.

If you look at the avatar next to my name you will see the Baha`i "ring symbol". This is a graphic depiction of Creation.

The stars are the Manifestations.
The top line is God in His Essence.
The middle line is the Manifestations together.
The bottom line is "Humankind".

The vertical line is the Holy Spirit connecting all.

If God is the Sun, we are warmed by the raysof the sun which are the Holy Spirit. If we were warmed directly by the sun itself we would be overwhelmed and consumed.

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott,

Thank you for the reply. I discussed this topic just a bit with SMKolins in a thead a few months back, saying that I found the Baha'i Sun-Rays-Mirror doctrine very appealing. Makes a lot of sense. As you know it differs significantly from the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, which I also love for its Mystery and emphasis on Love. My view is that both are correct (to a point) and both fall short, and neither is good when it is used to divide or oppress people.

I just was caught by the starkness of your first post above, which made it sound like there was no personal experience of God in the Baha'i Faith. I think you are right about not being able to withstand the full heat of the Sun, but I think that we can experience the Holy Spirit and for all intents and purposes that is a direct experience of God. The words we use to express the experience, whether it is *in* us or reflecting upon us, these are all just conventions that, while holding meaning, are not worth quibbling over. (Haha! But having said that, I think it is a more respectful position to state one's doctrine as that, one's doctrine, which I noticed you do. Sorry for the clumsy grammar, it's getting late in my world I'm trying to say that I think you state your case respectfully).

peace,
lunamoth

 

[kabir]

I don't believe one can "dial direct" to God.

Are you saying that you don't believe in prayer, Scott?

God is, in His own Essence, not knowable to man. He exists outside of all Creation, all of Creation is contingent on God, God is contingent upon nothing.

Therefore all one can know of God is what the Teachers tell us.

Regards,
Scott

To me, creation is contingent on God, but He exists outside, inside, and beyond it. He's beyond creation, but never seperate from it. In my view, we can only believe what the Teachers tell us about God if the Teachers experience God. So, if God isn't knowable to man, where do we find Teachers who are not men?

Thanks,
jack

 

[arthra]

Luna moth wrote:

I've noticed that for quite a while now you never use your usual friendly greetings with me. I'm guessing that now you consider me an enemy of the Baha'is, here only to attack. Please let me assure you that I still have a lot of love and respect for the Baha'i Faith. I have my criticisms, a lot of disillusionment and some pain, and also probably just plain ignorance about some aspects of the Faith, but I am not against the Baha'i Faith.

My reply:

Well Luna.. I hope you don't feel this way... Nope..never really thought of you as an "enemy". Also pray that you will find your happiness. My post only was a response to your general question and very happy you "still have a lot of love and respect for the Baha'i Faith".

- Art

 

[lunamoth]

Well Luna.. I hope you don't feel this way... Nope..never really thought of you as an "enemy". Also pray that you will find your happiness. My post only was a response to your general question and very happy you "still have a lot of love and respect for the Baha'i Faith".

- Art

Hi Art, glad to hear it is just my misreading your tone. After all, we have both been posting on this forum for well over a year and I thought that our exchanges would be quite a bit warmer by now than just quoting scripture and no greeting. Please feel free to call me Laurie, as I have used my name on this forum before, and it seems a bit more friendly than Luna Moth. Although I like luna or lunamoth quite a bit!

cheers,
lunamoth (Laurie)

PS Well, I have much happiness and many blessings great and small and thank you for your well wishes. I wish the same to you and your family. In the end I think we are seeking/striving for something a bit more lofty than that, don't you agree?

 

[Popeyesays]

Are you saying that you don't believe in prayer, Scott?



To me, creation is contingent on God, but He exists outside, inside, and beyond it. He's beyond creation, but never seperate from it. In my view, we can only believe what the Teachers tell us about God if the Teachers experience God. So, if God isn't knowable to man, where do we find Teachers who are not men?

Thanks,
jack
www.jackmctamney.com

I believe in prayer AND meditation, but I will never possess a direct revelation from God. I am not one of the Divine Manifestations. They come rarely and God selects the vessel. The Manifestations exist on this plane with us and on a plain beyond us. They DO experience perfectly the Revelationof God and transmit to us what God chooses Them to transmit. They are, at the same time, both individuals and exist in spiritual union. One can call Them all by individual names or refer to Them by the same name and be equally correct.

I embrace paradox. I just know that God is, in His Essence not KNOWABLE to me. The Manifestations MAKE God knowable to me.

Regards,
Scott

 

[_Z_]

Kabir hello!



I igree with your approach. One can dial direct, in prayer and meditation – and in our philosophical interpretations.

Z

 

[DrFree]

Now my question is should we let our beliefs evolve naturally over the course of a lifetime or should we be looking to define our beliefs by way of organised religion? And if the latter, how does one go about choosing a religion? There are so many and how can they ALL be "the way"?

I can only tell you how I chose my faith community after I grew out of years of naive atheism. None of the one true answers felt like more than ill-considered dogmas, but atheism itself only said what I didn't believe, not what I believed.

I joined a Unitarian Universalist congregation, because their fundamental principles include respect for everyone regardless of faith and a continuing search for spiritual truth. They admitted that they didn't have the answer but were willing to search.

Later I had an opportunity to work with an interfaith group that spanned Christians, Jews, Bahai, Buddhists, and so one. I quickly learned that all these faiths have really good people. (They all also have some extreme exclusionists.)

As a result I can now say that Interfaith is my Faith. Every faith that encourages you to love one another, and work with one another, is a valid expression of God's love. The faith that is best for you is the one that allows you to express that love most fully.

If none of the religions you've tried does that, if they exclude you because you are (fill in the blank), then keep searching. I would suggest you try out your local Unitarian Universalist congregation, but that's because it worked for me.