How do you choose your religion?

_Z_ said:
silverbackman.

does that include all religions - pagan, druid, neh even Satanism?

Z

The would include all major world religions that fall in the realms of real religion. Satanism is a atheistic cult, not sure about druid. How do you define pagan religions? If you mean any religion not Christianity, Islam, or Judaism then of course paganism will be included;):rolleyes:.
 
How do you define "Paganism"?
Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at [size=-1]PACT[/size]
1 : [size=-1]HEATHEN [/size]1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3 : [size=-1]NEO-PAGAN[/size]
- pagan adjective
- pa·gan·ish /-g&-nish/ adjective
pixt.gif
 
Silverbackman said:
Have you been listening?:rolleyes: I never said this new world religion would ban all other religions. Anyone is free to do as they wish but most likelly most people would come to this unifying faith, because then they get to taste all the fruit of all religions:).

yes silver, i am listening. but i do not like the fruit of all beliefs just as others do not like the fruit of all the things i believe. a unifying faith seems like deception to me & who are the leaders of this unifying faith? religious leaders like to tell everyone what to do & i dont see how a single unifying/organized religion would end up any different.

i am thinking in terms of a one world religion similiar to a one world government..that is what i am refering to that would not work because people wont realize their freedom has been taken from them, until it will be too late. i sure do hope you can see that potential in this.
i am tasting the fruit of these other religions just fine here at CR.

any how, i am kind of religioned out again & think i need the weekend off from religion. so you have good one, nice to meet you & keep your head up Silver.:)
 
My rant on the future...

Interesting to follow some of the posts ...

Let me say a few things though about unifying theplanet..

It's already happening at an accelerating rate.

I've been around more or less consciously since the end of WWII, Kora, Vietnam, etc.

I recall supporting the UN in a discussion I had in the late fifties with a professor at a meeting... He sugegsted the UN was not realistic and wouldn't last more than a few years time..

Well it has lasted longer than that..

The world is now a good deal smaller and more united than he would have believed fifty years ago. Why? technology, economics and world communications have forced us into it...

Probably the political world government or world parliament seems like a more viable and likely outcome to deal with world crises..

An International Court of Arbitration is now a reality.. Even though the US doesn't like it or formally recognize it it is still party to the Court's sessions so like or not that's coming about...

Inter-faith activities on a grass roots levell are becoming increasinf common and made necesary by the issues religious have living in the ame communities...

All these things above were presciently known in the Baha'i Faith in our Writings and such for many years before they occurred..

I think you'll see first more inter-faith activities and serious dialogue going on for some time...at World Parliament of Religions..

A uninification of all these religions and groups may take a form we cannot now predict.. but I think a better working relationship is what's more important and we'll see this I think developing soon.

People fear that individual freedom will be lost... Today I think peopel are feewling more empowered than ever. When I was a boy there were no satellites, no rockets to the moon unless in science fiction... there was racial segregation in my country and women by and large while voting were still relegated to the kitchens and changing diapers rather than having careers.
So I see the empowerments and graeter liberties that have occurred in the last fifty years and I see nothing really that will threaten these in the near future..

My rant is over...

- Art :)
 
Re: My rant on the future...

arthra said:
I think you'll see first more inter-faith activities and serious dialogue going on for some time...at World Parliament of Religions..

A uninification of all these religions and groups may take a form we cannot now predict.. but I think a better working relationship is what's more important and we'll see this I think developing soon.

...

My rant is over...

- Art :)

Hi Art,

You call that a rant? :D Just joking.

Yes, I agree with the above. Interfaith work and dialogue is an important part of building the world we want.

peace,
lunamoth
 
Quite a thread!

A couple points not covered but I think still needing comment.

About the Baha'i Faith not having sufficient affinity for the belief systems of other religions, specifically reincarnation as an example.

The Baha'i Faith accepts the divine basis/origin in the form of the Founders of these religions as well as the general thrust of the Scriptures They revealed. Some scriptures exist in highly verified form today and others have essentially disappeared leaving just pieces and bits. One thing to beware of in this venue is the Baha'i affirmation of scriptures vs the interpritations layered upon the scriptures across the years of it's presense among us.

Now to the extent that reincarnation is based in the scriptures, Baha'is have a view on the topic. To the extent reincarnation is the product of interpritation elaborating on scripture then Baha'is do not feel bound by it.

A simple way to point to how Baha'is accept the idea of something like reincarnation is what we call "return". Baha'is beleive, especially in the context of the times and circumstances of the Founders of religion but not only then, in a return of the past. People take up similar roles and are refered to as such in scripture. Situations repeat with scriptural references to times before when the same thing happened. These are not mere accidents.

A similar examination could be done for Karma.

As for the question of a tyranny of a dominant religion and or government across the planet....

It is true that as an obscure religion the Baha'i Faith has not been in a position to wrestle with the host of society and religion uniformly has a bad track record we are at the hind end of long centuries of the history of. Additionally some beleivers in some religions see reason to fear the idea based on their understanding. Some even view the simple mechanism of such a large organization as inhernetly tyrannical.

With regard to the first - religions initially did much to bring order and harmony to groups of people previously even at war with eachother. It's hard to note that as such periods are on the far side of hundreds or thousands of years and of cultures and societies far removed from the present. That religions fell into traps of tyranny is a product of processes of history. And becoming aware of that history can form a strong influence in not repeating that history. History can be evolutionary afterall - we go from city-state, to nation-state, to empire, to federalism and similar forms as we also go from monarchy to democracy. That evolution is not done. It helps to have explicit scriptures referring to such dangers and ever more clearly holding up the values and virtues necessary for not becoming tyrranical, as well as a mechanism to keep the authority of religion becoming bent to other purposes. For reference to those values I would refer people to the history of the Baha'i Faith in matters of racism and sexism (for some examples.) One of the great problems in this regard was to resolve a difficulty about leadership. Religion is unquestionably about individual transformation, which means individuals achieve spiritual ascendency. And religions so admire this condition that they seek to have occurances of it become the means for it's leadership. A cult of individualism can result. Or the mechanism of choosing this leadership can be bent towards other influences than promotion of spiritual values. But attachment to these individuals is not necessary to ensure spiritual leadership - religions have never been just about individual transformation. They have all engendered a social context for it's followers. If a religion ultimately only succeeded at individual transformation then it would disappear and would never become a norm of society. However such social structures as included in religion have more or less basis on their scripture. If you review the religions, just as there is an evolution in the world's forms of government, there is an evolution of the forms of administration in the religion. Reviewing the salient features of the Baha'i Faith in this regard might be well worth the time for those who fear a theocracy.

As for the fears based on the warnings of scripture, well the Baha'i Faith variously deals with these scriptural references by pointing them mostly to history - sometimes farther back in history than some are likely to find believable but some surprisingly close to the present, widely known, but not recognized for what they were. A post about this is available in the Baha'i section and is commended to those interested. The point is that until we learn the lesson of such warnings, we are going to suffer the results of our choices not following the path of God.

As for the practical problems of running such a large scale administrative structure without inherently falling into tyranny.... Again, humanity is evolving. Here's an interesting quote to think about from 1936:

"A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvelous swiftness and perfect regularity." Shoghi Effendi -- 11 March 1936 as posted here. I suggest this is an example of how humanity is continuing to grow and change. Indeed these changes will change what we consider normal, even as we continue to struggle with human nature and human education. I wouldn't say the full form envisioned is inhand, but clearly something unthinkable, well perhaps not unthinkable for some, in 1936 has come to the fore albeit we are still trying to figure out how to use it.

All of these issues aside, we are not to suppose that the administrative order is not incapable of tyranny. There will be occurances - there almost certainly have been some as well. But rather than focusing on the exceptions which should be remedied as best as possible ( as opposed to those who take personal liberties to extremes and then claim abuse at being censured) the shear scale of the growth in addressing the issues aught to bear some respect. Consider the abuses of the past when ignorance or shear paucity of values led to wars and genocides. Then suppose that we can do not only better but *so* much better! Of all the human failings, the most grievous is apathy! Sometimes Christians note that their influence in the world is rather in the solution not tried, rather than it failed. I would suggest this is somewhat true (though also tthe depths of history lost to most these days) - and that God isn't waiting for humanity but adjusting to the chosen history, rather than only holding out for what was possible. Mankind is making progress, albiet an inch at a time. For every inch we march onward, God blesses our actions much more. But to not make a step, to refuse the guidance of the Spirit, there is reason it is the unforgivable sin which can only be surpassed by resignation or the choice of faith.
 
As for the original question, perhaps some could share their stories about how or why they chose their own religion. We could then see how the priorities of reason and faith, and mercy and guidance, are illustrated in our lives, however faulty.

As for my own story, I was brought up into a mildly un-religious corner of a religious extended family. Some were catholic, a few protestant. Most were pretty private about their beleifs. Early on some attempts at religious training were present in my life - I was kicked out of a Catholic Sunday school when persistantly asking questions about Galileo (cf questions on tyranny above.) Later I went unwillingly to religious services where I spent more time rebutting the comments I heard (albeit in my head) or simply thinking about something else until I was able to make something of a stink about religion being voluntary in essense and I was attending involuntarily.

Then a few years go by with a serious interest in the developments of science. I entertained aetheism and was certainly agnostic for many years. However I came to view the developments of science as insufficiet - even that some parts hinted at things but would not resolve themselves easily in scientific terms. The study of consciouness itself for example. These interests and inclinations happen to coalese in my college days - my BS majors were physics and philosophy and minors in math and psychology - what is truth, how is it defined, stated and perceived. I began to put together what I beleived out of all these fields of inquiry rather than just soaking it up.

As this period was becoming very serious for me a freind heard about an information meeting of the Baha'i Faith. I had never heard of it and this friend wanted me to go to ask questions so that she could hear the answers so she could decide whether it was good for her or not. I had no interest in becoming a Baha'i or a member of any Faith. I had witnessed the beauty of the truth of various religions but also a history of failings but also a hint that religions grew in relation to eachother but for me that history ended hundreds of years ago or more.

So I went and asked questions. I had quite the reputation actually. I was cautious and respectful of being a guest. If there were other seakers present I always let them ask their questions. If there was a program I let it go ahead. But if someone wanted questions, I had questions and a long attention span. The depth of the questions forced a review of the literature - we read the Book of Certitude as a result. People kept saying that some of my questions reminded them of the book Seven Valleys and Four Valleys - a book that never seemed to be around. I borrowed other literature. I read a lot. I prayed a lot. I meditated. I appealed for guidance. I cried out.

My investigations became hotter, for want of a better word. My friend had declared her beleif in Baha'u'llah, graduated and moved away. But I needed more, even as the Baha'i Faith gave illumination to so many parts of my enquiries. Early on the Baha'is outlined the process of becoming a Baha'i but had since let it go and it became something of a thing forgotten as we reviewed all the topics and literature. And I noticed as I grew to know these people in particular how they acted both in speaking and in silence. I saw them as particular people with their own personalities, but I also saw how their hopes and deeds reflected their values. And in truth I found something very moving about the most silent members of those present.

Eventually I had a day like no other. It was a moment of prayerful awareness, and I was not alone. When the experience ended I quite surprised the people gathered. Literally jaws dropped as I asked for a declaration card.

And frankly then my studies continued and have continued down to today. The next day someone gave me a copy of The Seven Valleys and Four Valleys. I laughed - I cried. I've since struggled through dusty corners of old books for Zoroastrian scriptures - as much as still exist. Eventually I married and we live in something of a backwater and among our more developed achievements is two lone white people in the American south setting up, with too little assistance to matter, a Martin Luther King Commemoration Day which has finally taken on something of a life of its own. We've done a few other things as well of course. Now we live with a new daughter, gotten with some hardship (cf my home page from my profile.)
 
Well druids are a kind of person – a philosopher seer; we can have any faith, Christianity, Islam Baha’I – any! So I guess if you except us then all is ok. I don’t see how paganism will ‘fit’, it has no monotheistic god, but if we live and let live, then they can do as they choose. This is why it is important to have a universal law system, unless we are prepared to allow human and animal sacrifice etc. this law system must be externalised to religion, or one would be forcing morality on others. Of course there is then no need for a universal religion! [eh bandit!;) :) ]



It is easy at this point in time to see how things are becoming more integrated & universal. But the more we move towards a single state world the further it needs to be from a given religion or political movement/type, so as to keep power from groups & give it to the people. If there was a world president then he must have very limited powers that would only be relevant to worldwide events. This is just as easily achieved by proper diplomacy & universal respect. If the world party was of a western flavour, then Islam would still see it as opposition & vice versa. All we need to do is listen to each other and stop using our weight to impose our order on others.



Respect and freedom is all that is needed in this world, and we cannot achieve this by one religion imho – sorry, but people are assholes and the power would just go to there heads.



Bandit, all religioned out eh! :D , I know what you mean, I am still quite new here so I am enjoying the dialogue – for now.



Respect to all & are we threadjacking?:eek:



Z

 
_Z_ said:
Respect to all & are we threadjacking?:eek:



Z



Well, this thread has meandered quite a bit but it keeps oxbowing back to the topic.

I think part of it is that if you are open to the idea that other religions could be right you are only a stone's throw away from seeing that there is at least some truth in most or all of them, and after that it's just another short hop to seeing them all as facets of just one truth. I think that seeing the damage done by fighting between religions makes most of us sorrowful and wish for a better way.

peace,
lunamoth
 
Lunamoth hi.



What religion are you by the way?



Facets of the one truth! Well if there is one truth?
There may be many truths! because we can only interpret truth, as the truth is naked – it is beyond linguistic meaning! If we think about this, anything we can summon in our minds is like a pebble compared to a mountain, a point to a space, an object to the void/nirvana. A meaning [however true] can be held in the hand whereas god [or infinity] cannot. This is why I believe in an open approach & a universal one, as words cannot mean truth even if they are spoken by prophets [of which there are many], they are guides not dictums!
Z
 
_Z_ said:
Lunamoth hi.



What religion are you by the way?



Facets of the one truth! Well if there is one truth?
There may be many truths! because we can only interpret truth, as the truth is naked – it is beyond linguistic meaning! If we think about this, anything we can summon in our minds is like a pebble compared to a mountain, a point to a space, an object to the void/nirvana. A meaning [however true] can be held in the hand whereas god [or infinity] cannot. This is why I believe in an open approach & a universal one, as words cannot mean truth even if they are spoken by prophets [of which there are many], they are guides not dictums!
Z

Hi Z, Well, I never feel like I get anywhere when I try to nail down details about one truth or many truths or absolute truth or relative truth etc.. :) Actually, for me it really just boils down to the Law of Love, the two greatest commandments, the practice of loving kindness. All the rest are details and sometimes distractions, but I think they are important details.

OK, I will once again give my analogy: religion is like an airplane. Flying, is well, flying. But for us to fly we need an airplane. Which is manmade. Some planes are built better than others, most are built based upon one or two original prototypes, some adaptions make it fly better, some make it more comfortable, sometimes there are great renovations that take the whole experience of flight to the next level. You can take out the seats, but you can't take out the engine and wings. There are some models that fly with a totally different design (helicopters, for example). Some models don't fly well or at all or for long. Some models are baisically just a pair of wings for soaring. But the bottom line is: they all are made to fly, or to try.

You can see how this metaphor can be taken further, but to me bottom line is that as long as the goal is flight, there are several models that will work well enough. But there are very good reasons for choosing which one you think is best.

Here's another metaphor that I think is helpful. Choosing your religion is like getting married. You make the best decision you can based some on experience and some on knowledge and some on feelings and some on "Something More." You make a committment, you don't really know how it will go until you are into it and making sacrifices and realizing that you sometimes are the one who needs to change. When it works it is Gestalt, the whole is more than the sum of its parts. Some people think you only have one soul-mate to whom you are destined. Sometimes it doesn't work out.

Other people have their own happy marriages that work for them. I don't need to worry about their marriages, just my own.

I am a Christian.

As for the Christian calling, I believe in the "build a better mousetrap" theory of evangelism. If we build the Kingdom, they will come.* :)

peace,
lunamoth

*or maybe that's the Field of Dreams theory of evangelism, I get them confused. :p
 
I'm of the opinion that people should go with what works for them. There are so many people who all have different experiences and understandings of how and why things work. I don't think there is one answer that can apply to all of them.
 
Lunamoth. Happy birthday on the 27th btw. :)



Like the metaphors, sum it up well! It is true that if you show people a way that is more helpful and makes their lives generally better, then they will follow that way. It’s a bit like – if I may borrow from one of your metaphors – offering Pamela Anderson for a bride. But of course in Druidry we have a goddess that can have any personification, so I could offer pammy in a pagan heaven of everything one could wish for :p [an Elyseum field of dreams eh!] except I am not a pagan, but you get my point.



If I was to advise, I think having Jesus in your life and thinking of him in your philosophy and general approach to life, is a good idea no matter what religion one believes in. I just think he was more advanced than any of the others and that is not a biased opinion, as I would not consider myself a Christian [or of any religion].



Respect



Z
 
_Z_ said:
Lunamoth. Happy birthday on the 27th btw. :)



Like the metaphors, sum it up well! It is true that if you show people a way that is more helpful and makes their lives generally better, then they will follow that way. It’s a bit like – if I may borrow from one of your metaphors – offering Pamela Anderson for a bride. But of course in Druidry we have a goddess that can have any personification, so I could offer pammy in a pagan heaven of everything one could wish for :p [an Elyseum field of dreams eh!] except I am not a pagan, but you get my point.



If I was to advise, I think having Jesus in your life and thinking of him in your philosophy and general approach to life, is a good idea no matter what religion one believes in. I just think he was more advanced than any of the others and that is not a biased opinion, as I would not consider myself a Christian [or of any religion].



Respect



Z

Hi Z,

Well, metaphors are good up to a point--glad you liked them. Those actually reflect my more pragmatic approach to religion. But I wouldn't want to leave you with the impression that I think it begins and ends in human effort and thought. I believe that God breaks through, most astoundingly in Christ. :) Those inspirations and innovations have a heavenly source.

Jesus, more advanced? Indeed! :p

Thank you for the birthday wishes.

peace,
lunamoth
 
LM.



Yes that’s a good way of looking at it imo, we could say that gods voice is ever-present for those who have ears for listening! Perhaps there are different ways of listening and learning, so all religions are interpretations of the voice [or what I sometimes refer to as the book with no name (druidic listening – via the druids collective}]. Jesus & the Buddha are my favourites, but the Tao is great to, there just seams to be a belittling factor in ancient Chinese philosophy, where the people are to be made seemingly simple & intellectually stunted – just my opinion.



I also wonder if the ‘voice’ becomes fragmented & transformed by culture and beliefs, thence it becomes many voices. The mind is a filter I don’t think it can fully link with that voice, and the language is in silent meaning. even though Jesus is imho the more advanced, his interpretation is still via the then culture and environment, if he was born today his teachings although similar, would be different and relative to today’s environment. Then we must also consider the vastness of gods creation [the universe], and that Jesus cant be born everywhere, thus I always keep an open mind.



Z
 
_Z_ said:
I also wonder if the ‘voice’ becomes fragmented & transformed by culture and beliefs, thence it becomes many voices.

I would compare it with near death experiences where a believer sees the Founder of their own Faith welcoming them and returning them. The truth always is perceived before it is appreciated. Perception always entails the pov of the viewer. I beleive the Voice knows this limitation of us.

"O SON OF BEAUTY! By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice."

However, the situation is not one without any recourse. I also beleiver we may relatively free ourselves of such fetters - albiet not absolutely:

"O SON OF DUST! Blind thine eyes, that thou mayest behold My beauty; stop thine ears, that thou mayest hearken unto the sweet melody of My voice; empty thyself of all learning, that thou mayest partake of My knowledge; and sanctify thyself from riches, that thou mayest obtain a lasting share from the ocean of My eternal wealth. Blind thine eyes, that is, to all save My beauty; stop thine ears to all save My word; empty thyself of all learning save the knowledge of Me; that with a clear vision, a pure heart and an attentive ear thou mayest enter the court of My holiness."

Indeed such steps are, to my understanding, the begining of truely seeking a religion. If we do not free ourselves of preconceptions and the judgement of everyone else, our results are highly conditioned by them. These influences form, as it were, a heaven and an earth, or in other words, a paradigm or world-view.

"No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you...

The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets."
 
Alan Davie said:
Now my question is should we let our beliefs evolve naturally over the course of a lifetime or should we be looking to define our beliefs by way of organised religion? And if the latter, how does one go about choosing a religion? There are so many and how can they ALL be "the way"?

I am all for the evolution of faith over the course of our lifes. Naturally I would say this, as this is how my own beliefs have been established.

Having said this however, I would think that should someone be fortunate enough to have their beliefs fall into the faith structure of an organised religion, they should definately consider joining it. Afterall, the benefits of new friends, society and support of faith itself should never be underestimated.

On the occassions where I am asked for advice about faith or hope and even life generally, I usually direct people towards Christianity. Christianity in my opinion is on the whole an excellent faith.. especially in the basic teachings of Jesus. I would attend the Christian church again myself, if I didn't have to accept the rest of the bible as being the divine word of God.
 
Ratanya said:
I am all for the evolution of faith over the course of our lifes. Naturally I would say this, as this is how my own beliefs have been established.

Having said this however, I would think that should someone be fortunate enough to have their beliefs fall into the faith structure of an organised religion, they should definately consider joining it. Afterall, the benefits of new friends, society and support of faith itself should never be underestimated.

I know a man who specifically chose his Faith because it didn't exactly fit him - it wasn't too comfortable, and asked him to change.
 
Sm kolins.



Interesting post. I kind of agree with most of it, I suppose that if one is to take religion as your whole life then gods knowledge and teaching is all one needs to know. I would question weather or not this is segregating life into a single component of the many, what I mean is; should we not learn from gods entire creation as well as from god himself? Perhaps this is why god in his wisdom has made some people more religious than others – that collectively we may learn many lessons. For a druid like myself life is my bible, I learn of god by what is here and through contemplating that which lies beyond, there is no difference between the seeker and the seer.



Your last paragraph was true to purity, but I wonder if by making oneself purer we are creating the opposite in the world, in a similar way to ‘each action creates its equal and opposite’ – universal balance and all that! After all Jesus was pure and evil grew around him and then closed in on him, I wonder if there is a pattern to this?



Ps. this has been plaguing my mind for some time, so any answers much appreciated!

Respect :)


Z



 
Well, I was born a Christian, in a Christian family, so I went to church and followed my family. Then I began to ask my parents about my freedom of choice, whether I could be a non-Christian. They said yeah. And asked me why I do not want to become a Christian.

I was about 5 or 6 then. I told them that I had to go to church on Sunday morning and that I'd miss my favourite TV shows. =( Heheh. But then I realised that my reasoning was stupid and stayed in that religion.

I began to question a lot about Christianity, each question was given the right answer and now, I hold a firm belief in Christianity, not because I've never questioned it or never heard of other religions, but because it's assured me that it's the way. That I do not see a gap in it compared to other schools of thoughts and religions. Plus I haven't been convinced that the teachings are contradictive or been proven wrong.

I'll still welcome other schools of thoughts and religions and listen to the teachings they offer. No matter how strongly I firmly believe in Christianity, I will not believe in it simply because I am one or because I was born as one. I challenge it all the time all the more so because I was born as one. =)
 
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