Islam on a collision course

Islam demands that we free sovereign individuals submit to their beliefs, we understand that we have a core fundamental right to make our own destiny, that as free people we must resist tyranny in all its forms, this we know as a fundamental truth. As free men it is our duty, our obligation to fight the dark hordes of despotism and economic slavery, this is truth. Life is nothing without our freedom, our forefathers understood this simple fact; freedom is not free. I ask that all western men understand that Islam is not our friend, the followers of Islam cannot be made to understand our way of life, just as we cannot understand theirs, if our enemies cannot allow us to live free without harassment, and threats of violence, if they will not cease their corruption and bribery of our political leaders, as they coerce our people into silence while they plunder our Treasury, and they continue to invade our homelands, twisting communities, perverting our laws to fit their needs while murdering, raping and stealing from our people, we have but one choice. In this we must pledge our sacred honor, valuable treasurer, and blood to defeating our enemies, be they of the Islamic Infanda, the Mongolian hordes, the barbarians from the south, or the enemy within.
They mean to enslave us, and destroy our civilization and its people, this will ring hollow to many of you, for you live comfortable lives without a care in the world, but as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, our day will come, and you will make your choice to stand and fight with us as free men or die on your knees as a coward unworthy of life, the choice is yours.
 
Certain Muslims do bad things, but that's not Islam, because it's not how a particular reading of the Qu'ran goes. Therefore, one should not be angry at Islam for the bad things that Muslims do.

Certain Americans do bad things, but that's not America, because it's not how a particular reading of the US Constitution goes. Therefore, one should not be angry at the USA for the bad things that Americans do.

Why is the first argument always valid but the second one ignored. The Palestinians danced in the streets after 9/11. That speaks volumes about who practices blind hatred while demanding tolerance and understanding of their own beliefs.
 
Dogbrain said:
Why is the first argument always valid but the second one ignored. The Palestinians danced in the streets after 9/11. That speaks volumes about who practices blind hatred while demanding tolerance and understanding of their own beliefs.
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and yet there were mass demonstrations AGAINST 9/11 in Tehran and a number of other Muslim coubtries ... so who practices blind hatred now?

Should we not understand that perhaps the Palestinians were simply reacting to the USA, Israels staunchest ally, receiving some of the medicine it's financial and arms support doles out so regularly to Palestine? Doesn't this make it a political and not religious issue?
 
Muslimwoman said:
and yet there were mass demonstrations AGAINST 9/11 in Tehran and a number of other Muslim coubtries ... so who practices blind hatred now?

Should we not understand that perhaps the Palestinians were simply reacting to the USA, Israels staunchest ally, receiving some of the medicine it's financial and arms support doles out so regularly to Palestine? Doesn't this make it a political and not religious issue?
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Unfortunately, there was dancing in the streets of my home town of Dearborn, Michigan USA as well. And these are supposed to be American citizens, who swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, to defend our nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic, who told me point blank that they can lie to the infidel, if it serves the purpose of furthering Islam and the manifest destiny.

Not all did this MS, but enough did to seriously question the fidelity of our neighbors.

Is it Islam that does this? Or is it Islam in the hands of certain people with a predisposed penchant for chaos? If you can answer that, I am all ears.
 
Any religion which thinks it is inherently better than others - meaning, leads its believers and followers into this kind of delusion and ego aggrandizement - has some serious issues. Either it is out of tune with its original Inspirer, by definition, or else its Inspirer was an EGOMANIAC ... again, by definition.

So those who practice the Teachings of the Inspiring source - really need to work a little bit better on getting it right. That's how I see it.

If you believe your `religious leader' wanted the world to exist in chaos, enmity, fear and hatred, then a day is coming when this world will not tolerate the so-called PRACTICE of your religion. Because it will be antithetical to the common GOOD, and known openly as such. I kind of thought enlightened individuals (a relative descriptor, I realize) already knew as much.

Creating such a world ... is proving difficult. I really doubt some `gift from Heaven' is going to bring about a resolution/solution, either. Such gifts must be received. And that takes cooperation. It's a two-way gig. If you think cooperating with `Your Father in Heaven' means, equates to, equals or in any way includes making war with other nations, then again, I think you've got something to learn, not to mention another thing coming.

Yes, it is true, we don't have to look very far for the fanatics, but then, it takes fanatical thinking in combination with unchecked extreme behaviour - to make monkeys out of men. Science doesn't need any help. Religion ...

... has it COVERED.
 
Quahom1 said:
Is it Islam that does this? Or is it Islam in the hands of certain people with a predisposed penchant for chaos? If you can answer that, I am all ears.
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I wish I could answer that Q, have been trying to understand it for years. I am sure it is not Islam which does it or there wouldn't have been demonstrations against 9/11 in places like Tehran.

Perhaps it has nothing to do with religion and more to do with cultural ties?

Here's my guess/observation .... any group of immigrants can live peacefully among a nation but will always, no matter how many generations pass, have an emotional tie to their homeland .. sometimes a more passionate perhaps rose tinted tie than people still living there. The Jewish history and Israel are an excellent example. America has also had it's fair share throughout it's short history (IRA/Irish, Mafia/Italians, Jews/Israel). Perhaps people never lose their original identity?

I also saw this during a Doha debate talking about the question of a Palestinian right to return. A middle aged Palestinian, living in a refugee camp, was getting quite frustrated with young members of the audience, who have never been to Palestine, who said they want their right of return .. the speaker told them to get on a plane and swap places with him.
 
I don't think there is really much difference in essence between Islam and Christianity on the issue of how much the religion furthers an attitude of "We're right and forget everybody else!" What is going on in the Islamic world has a lot to do with injured pride: the Islamic world is poorer and weaker than the Western world, and so they often have feelings of being pushed around and ignored (sometimes exaggerated feelings, but quite often these feelings are well-grounded in fact); and the historical memory that the situation was once quite the reverse contributes to the sense of grievance and anger.
 
In some cases no doubt yes Bob but that doesn't explain the young people who now live "wealthy lives" in the West or oil producing countries feeling tied to or wanting the right to return to their homeland.

I think we have seen how easily these young people can be radicalised and yet they are not poor or living in economically poor countries.
 
Dogbrain said:
Certain Muslims do bad things, but that's not Islam, because it's not how a particular reading of the Qu'ran goes. Therefore, one should not be angry at Islam for the bad things that Muslims do.

Certain Americans do bad things, but that's not America, because it's not how a particular reading of the US Constitution goes. Therefore, one should not be angry at the USA for the bad things that Americans do.

Why is the first argument always valid but the second one ignored. The Palestinians danced in the streets after 9/11. That speaks volumes about who practices blind hatred while demanding tolerance and understanding of their own beliefs.
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When Bush persued his totally unjustified and catastrophic invasion of Iraq, our peace group in Bath loudly and vehemently opposed it and our country's involvement in it. Bur we were at great pains to show that we were not anti-American, only anti-Bush. Many visiting Americans signed our petition.

I don't know if Americans are blind to what passes for normal life in their country. Perhaps it takes a foreigner to see it. I visited in 1973 and talked to a boy of ten in rags and no shoes with a handgun stuffed into his trousers. A hundred yards away beyond the rail track the no-go area started. I don't need to go on. My opinion has not changed that America generally is in terminal moral and social decline, and, as a nation, has no right to tell any other nation how to live.

Yes there are terrible things going on all over the world, but perhaps Americans might like to put their own house in order before criticising others. BTW a lot of this applies equally to my own country too.
 
Muslimwoman said:
In some cases no doubt yes Bob but that doesn't explain the young people who now live "wealthy lives" in the West or oil producing countries feeling tied to or wanting the right to return to their homeland.

I think we have seen how easily these young people can be radicalised and yet they are not poor or living in economically poor countries.
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But they still tie a large part of their self-identity to those countries. It is like Irish-Americans getting all hot and bothered about Ireland although they'd never been there and had little clue about what was going on. It is painful to Arab-Americans (and I imagine to Arab-Britons etc. but I don't know them) that their home countries are widely despised, and I can see how it is precisely the fact that they have "wealthy lives" that can give some of them the feeling that they have an especial obligation to do something, "on behalf of" (or so they are thinking) those with less power and opportunity for action.
Virtual_Cliff said:
I don't know if Americans are blind to what passes for normal life in their country. Perhaps it takes a foreigner to see it. I visited in 1973 and talked to a boy of ten in rags and no shoes with a handgun stuffed into his trousers. A hundred yards away beyond the rail track the no-go area started. I don't need to go on.
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I'm not doubting your story, but I've lived in some pretty bombed-out-looking neighborhoods without ever seeing or hearing about anything remotely like "a boy of ten in rags and no shoes with a handgun stuffed into his trousers"; that is hardly "normal life" here, and I doubt that it was forty years ago, either, although of course poverty was more extreme back then.
 
bob x said:
I'm not doubting your story, but I've lived in some pretty bombed-out-looking neighborhoods without ever seeing or hearing about anything remotely like "a boy of ten in rags and no shoes with a handgun stuffed into his trousers"; that is hardly "normal life" here, and I doubt that it was forty years ago, either, although of course poverty was more extreme back then.
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Yeah, I used to have a photo of him. This was in the quiet prosperous little town of York Pa. I don't think many of the local whites had seen what I saw because they never went near that part of town. This is what happens, it's like The Portrait of Dorian Gray. I won't go on. I liked the people I met. They were friendly and generous, but look under the rug and it's a different story.

I have also had the pleasure of working a year in Saudi Arabia, and while not everything was roses - by any means - there was a sense of great dignity and honour among the locals I knew, which is rare these days.
-cliff
 
Well, I don't find "dignity and honor" particularly rare, not anywhere really. I am sorry your picture is so jaundiced.
 
Virtual_Cliff said:
Yes there are terrible things going on all over the world, but perhaps Americans might like to put their own house in order before criticising others. BTW a lot of this applies equally to my own country too.
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Then why are you criticizing Americans? Hypocrisy is such a popular hobby.
 
Dogbrain said:
Then why are you criticizing Americans? Hypocrisy is such a popular hobby.
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The problem with this topic Dogbrain is that so many of Britains foreign policies are built solely to support the USA, even when we object to them., so as a nation we feel very aggreived about being forced into the Iraq war based on lies and Bush's god complex.

Blair was Bush's poodle, nobody disputes that and 85% of Britains (according to our press at the time) were against invading Iraq but Blair had to please Bush so off to war we went and we have lost soldiers lives, billions of pounds and our countries reputation in the process.

Unlike the USA (I think but not sure if you are having any inquires) the Brits will not let this one lie, we are in the midst of an inquiry now and I think we will keep demanding answers long after the inquiry is finished.
 
MW,

There are a couple more important aspects of criticizing another person's culture. Some people are too sensitive about having their own culture criticized, even when the criticism is valid. We all need to take a look and see if we are too sensitive about being criticized.

In addiction, the other person has to be just as open and willing to discuss his/her own culture (and many people are not willing to do this). It is unfair for a person to criticize, yet be unwilling to be criticized. We may say, "I won't let you criticize my culture because your culture has negative traits too," which is unfair. Such two-sided discussions are possible (but very difficult).

Another important point is that it is okay to discuss and criticize each other's culture, providing such discussions are prefaced with tact and respect.
 
Dogbrain said:
Then why are you criticizing Americans? Hypocrisy is such a popular hobby.
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Sorry I'm going to have to come back on that. As I said earlier, I'm NOT criticising any American people. I'm not even criticising really. I'm just relating a couple of things I've seen in my life.

Under the British Empire, we Brits in our colonies inflicted appalling injustices on the natives, not because of malice, but because we assumed that we were the culmination of God's creation, and the rest of the world would eventually catch up with us. That is why, for instance, the Australian authorities used to take promising Aborigine kids from their parents and send them to white homes to have the enormous privilege of being raised as white kids. It's hard to see it now but it was thought to be enlightened thinking. (cf Rabbit Proof Fence).

We have a highly cautious post-Empire attitude now. Which is why at least some of us are so sensitive about expecting other cultures to be like us.
 
I said:
But some countries are bigger on it than others, hence attract comment. :)
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Ah, yes, everyone has an opinion about Buddy Holly, but who remembers Willy the Wino on a streetcorner?
 
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