God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions

[InquisitiveInHalifax]

If there is only one true God of what gender is he/she? I believe that if there is only one true God that he/she must be above gender. So, why is it that in these monotheistic/abrahamic religions women seem to be below men? In reading one of the other threads someone had mentioned that in the Koran it says that men may have as many wives as they are able to support and limitless concubines. This hardly seem fair to the women, does this not make them sexual objects? Possessions even? It seems to me that there is a lack of balance here. I'm sorry if I offended anyone or misquoted the Koran, it is not my intention. This is truly troubling to me.

 

[OzAndy]

If there is only one true God of what gender is he/she? I believe that if there is only one true God that he/she must be above gender. So, why is it that in these monotheistic/abrahamic religions women seem to be below men? In reading one of the other threads someone had mentioned that in the Koran it says that men may have as many wives as they are able to support and limitless concubines. This hardly seem fair to the women, does this not make them sexual objects? Possessions even? It seems to me that there is a lack of balance here. I'm sorry if I offended anyone or misquoted the Koran, it is not my intention. This is truly troubling to me.

A very common Christian answer to your question is that God is above/outside or transcends gender, because God is spirit. This oddly enough is particularly true of God the Father as well as the Holy Spirit... Paul in the Bible also says that for those who are "in Christ" there is no Jew, no Gentile, no slave, no free and no male, no female- all are one. In other words in terms of value God sees no distinction between people of different races, social class or gender.

Having said that the Bible does allow a man to have more than one wife - even the New Testament, but (male) Christian leaders are encouraged to have only one. The tenth commandment common to Jews and Christians puts wives together with a whole bunch of other "property" which belongs to others which we should not desire to have or take from its rightful owner.

On the other hand the "good wife" of proverbs 31 while she has a diferntiated role from that of her husband is praised for shrewdly buying and selling property and running a business well. In places Paul speaks of the man as being the head of the wife, but he also says that husbands and wives should submit to one another. He says too that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church...

Jesus did stuff that at least some other Jewish teachers of his tme did not do. He publically spoke to women. He spoke to the woman who came to the well at mid-day. Not only was she a woman, she was not Jewish AND she came at mid-day which means she was almost certainly an outcast - someone on the margins. When Jesus' disciples turn up they don't ask "Why are you talking to this non-jewish person?", they ask "Why are you talking to a woman?"

In at least one passage Jesus includes women among his disciples.

Well that's a bit of a random selection about women in the Bible from a Christian perspective. The only other thing I will add is that whatever the official rules in the Christian and Jewish scriptures there are lots of Husbands who loved and respected their wives, not treating them as possessions Eg Abrabam and Sarah, Jacob and Rachel, Xerxes and Esther, Hanah and whatever her husband's name was. Love is the leveler.

Blessings,
Andrew.

 

[InquisitiveInHalifax]

Thanks Andrew, those are not the examples of women that are regularly quoted from the Bible. I guess that would make the suppression (sp?) of women in ages past a societal thing, not that we're totally in the clear yet. Much like slavery and genocide, another case of someone taking the message of God out of context to support their own discriminatory attitude.

Also glad to know that I'm not the only one that thought that God must be above gender, or any such superficial trait. I'm very grateful to have found this web-site and be able to explore my beliefs and spirituality.

 

[Quahom1]

Thanks Andrew, those are not the examples of women that are regularly quoted from the Bible. I guess that would make the suppression (sp?) of women in ages past a societal thing, not that we're totally in the clear yet. Much like slavery and genocide, another case of someone taking the message of God out of context to support their own discriminatory attitude.

Also glad to know that I'm not the only one that thought that God must be above gender, or any such superficial trait. I'm very grateful to have found this web-site and be able to explore my beliefs and spirituality.

I'd like to point out that from circa 520 to 750 AD, the majority of Christian Priests in Ireland and for that matter missionaries through out the dark ages of Europe (Abbesses), that come from Ireland, were women. They could also heft a double edged broad sword with the ease that stunned many fuedal lord's knights (not to mention the Vatican's guard). And they were deadly in archery (with a yew wood long bow). I'd recommend "How the Irish saved Civilization" by Thomas Cahill.

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[BlaznFattyz]

Thanks Andrew, those are not the examples of women that are regularly quoted from the Bible. I guess that would make the suppression (sp?) of women in ages past a societal thing, not that we're totally in the clear yet. Much like slavery and genocide, another case of someone taking the message of God out of context to support their own discriminatory attitude.

Also glad to know that I'm not the only one that thought that God must be above gender, or any such superficial trait. I'm very grateful to have found this web-site and be able to explore my beliefs and spirituality.

the first created human was a man in gods image. god is the father. prophets: men. melchizedek was a man, the son of god on earth was a man, the church is the bride of christ (even in heaven jesus is referred as a man - the groom). the holy spirit came unto mary and gave her a son. i would say that god is a masculine by nature based on his actions.

 

[Quahom1]

the first created human was a man in gods image. god is the father. prophets: men. melchizedek was a man, the son of god on earth was a man, the church is the bride of christ (even in heaven jesus is referred as a man - the groom). the holy spirit came unto mary and gave her a son. i would say that god is a masculine by nature based on his actions.

Mostly true. However there have been prophetesses (biblical), and they were told specifically how to dress in order to present themselves with authority as given by God (head covered, quiet in their ways for example), but they were not to be dismissed, else there would be hell to pay. The Holy Spirit did not visit Mary...an Angel did. There is absolutely no biblical reference showing the Holy Spirit ever to take on the form of a human, let alone a male human.

In Genesis, the Father and the Son spoke, however the Holy Spirit did not, but did hover over the waters and firmament. The Holy Spirit seems to have the role of care taker, nurturer, soother...very female traits I might add. The Holy Spirit never causes pestulence or death...ever, in history. The Holy Spirit leaves, and the Angel of death enters (decidedly masculine).

According to Biblical reference, we are currently in a state of Grace, as the Holy Spirit is in the world, and with us. In other words we are under the protective cover of the Spirit, which encourages, strengthens and applauds us (again very female like traits).

Last but not least. We are raised by our mothers, shored up by our fathers, and defended by our brothers. The perfect example of how a man should be as a father to his children, how a man should be as a brother to his fellow man, and how a woman should play her role in life...this last part lies within the actions of the Holy Spirit of God... quiet, but oh so powerful, and not to be taken lightly or dismissed.

Like the Father and Holy Spirit, woman helps meet the needs of man, and like the Father and the Son, mankind should look to the creator with respect and reverence, And like Son to the Holy Spirit, we men should be the perfect servants to the women in our lives...for they deserve nothing but the best we can offer. Women are not called the "fairer sex" for nothing.

The wisest words I've ever heard about dying well, came from men. The wisest words I've ever heard about living life well, came from women...not men.

my thoughts

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BTW Inquisitive, no woman is below a man (unless she wants to be). No man is above a woman (unless she wants him to be). She was taken from his side, to be equal, from under his arm to be protected, and near his heart...to be loved by him...

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Luke 1:35 (King James Version)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 (New International Version)
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

 

[Quahom1]

Luke 1:35 (King James Version)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 (New International Version)
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

That is correct. And the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Higest shall overshadow thee. These are two different versions of God being brought to bear. And as I recall, there is a very Jewish tradition wherein the matrons prepare the bride for her groom, before he casts his shadow over her...

And the Holy Spirit came over the waters and the firmament. But it was the Father that said, let us make man in our image and likeness...the Holy Spirit prepared the place, then the Father did His thing, and seeded life.

If you are implying that women should know their place, and that place is to be silent and subservient...I suspect that is a mistake.

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[wil]

i would say that god is a masculine by nature based on his actions.

Since 'he' creator...the only one that knows how to create offspring is female..by your analogy I would say she is female...but I for one don't follow that logic, I think spirit is genderless. Michaelangelo must have thought her to be female...you don't get belly buttons on the chapel ceiling being begot by a man...one would have to be in the womb of a woman....

But all that is creating God in man's image instead of vice versa...I think this earthly vessel that spirit travels around in currently is a weak representation of the original.

namaste,

 

[BlaznFattyz]

i was just saying i think god is masculine in nature. i wasnt implying anything about women whatsoever. not everyone has the gift to minister to people, those that do could very well be women as well.

 

[Quahom1]

i was just saying i think god is masculine in nature. i wasnt implying anything about women whatsoever. not everyone has the gift to minister to people, those that do could very well be women as well.

May I be so bold as to point out that there is a big difference between ministering, and preaching. Anyone can minister to man (even the Angels), but only certain people can preach (and I take it you mean only men). And I further assume you have a Pauline bent on this issue (which is fine).

I disagree. I think women can preach the word of God, and I think they do daily. They just don't command thousands of people's attention, at a stretch. No, they command the attention of their children. And it really isn't commanding, but more like enthralling.

The greatest lessons I have learned about life and God, came from my mother's mouth. Subsequently, the greatest lessons I learned about the world came from my father's mouth.

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[InLove]

Hi Y'all--Peace be here with us.

I have always thought that the Biblical account where Mary pondered in her heart all that happened is of immense importance. The world in which she lived is the same world we live in today. It may not seem like it, but it is. How long do you think she pondered? Until her dear Son was two or three, or six, or until He was crucified? How she must have "pondered" it all upon His resurrection! Perhaps she thought, just for a moment, that finally everyone would see. But, probably she knew they would not. And I have little doubt that she pondered it all until the day she passed from this life.

Is God a "man" or a woman? NO. Was Jesus born a male? YES. Is gender important in the account of the salvation of all? Well, yes. It is important so that a bloodline can be established (for a record--not because God excludes anyone--He accepts all who accept Him). Do I think that God favors males over females? NO. It is only humans who do this. Do I respect the place that God set forth for males in the family and community? YES. Do I love what He set forth for females? Well, YES, yes I do. I only wish that we could see that if we conducted ourselves properly according to God's will ( I mean men and women) we would have so many blessings we could not count them all.

As far as what Paul had to say about women in the church--people want to tar and feather him today about it. Folks love to speculate about how Jesus would talk to us in this day and time, and they will just romanticize all day about it, but they still want to crucify Paul for what he had to say about women! Well, guess what, guys, Paul was a human being, and it had to be extreme for him to do what he was doing and saying at the time--I don't think that he had the opportunity to champion women's rights, considering the political and religious tension that prevailed then.

If the earthly family is a structure that mirrors that of Heaven--yes, the husband is to be the head of the wife. It is an honor, as well as a responsibility. The same is true of the wife. It is an honor to be united with an honorable man, one led by God's own Spirit. Yes, it is sad that many men (and countless women) have misinterpreted this idea of spiritual and even physical communion for ages and ages. The Truth is that if each partner is acting in faith to honor God, who defines Himself as Love, then they have nothing at all to fear from one another.

I do know this--that when there is no man to do the traditional work that men do, women have been called upon to do it. Rosy the Riveter? How about Deborah (my namesake, by the way)? Now, Rosy and Deborah didn't do any worse or better than any man. They just did.

And I think that when there are no women to do the traditional things that women do, men are called upon to do them. Stay-at-Home dads? How about "Take the Kids to Work" dads?? There are plenty of those--and more every day. If there is ever a "First Gentleman", boy, howdy, is he ever gonna take some flack!

Oh, well, I could just go on and on and on....

InPeace,
InLove

 

[heaven_id]

If God is female then every Christian must call "Him" : our Mother in heaven.

 

[Quahom1]

If God is female then every Christian must call "Him" : our Mother in heaven.

Except Mom doesn't normally bring home the "bacon".

Our Father, who art in heaven...

...give us this day our daily bread...

But you have given me pause to think about something. Why do we not pray to the Holy Spirit? We pray to the Father, and to the Son, but there is no "official" prayer to the Holy Spirit.

We ask the Father to Watch over us, and the Son to come into our lives...daily. But what do we ask the Holy Spirit to do? (officially).

Not much I suspect. Because like mom, the Holy Spirit is here, now, and constantly hovering about us. You know the Bible is clear about the Holy Spirit's role. The Holy Spirit takes our non worded groans and pain to the Father. The Holy Spirit intercedes on our behalf...speaking for us, what we can't put into words before the Father.

In reading through the Bible, and comparing it to secular history and thought, WE put the Holy Spirit in third place, not the Bible. We ignore the Holy Spirit as almost like a second class citizen of heaven.

Yet the Bible is quite clear, it is the Holy Spirit of God that is with us and among us and graces us on a day to day basis. And as long as that Holy Spirit of God is with us, total chaos can not overwhelm us.

The Holy Spirit has never caused harm, or death, or pestulance to come upon us. In fact, before we get slammed for our insolence, the Holy Spirit must leave...

Mom nurtures and protects, Dad disciplines and protects, Brother/Son, identifies with us and protects.

God is not male or female. God is all encompassing.

my thoughts

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[heaven_id]

Could be Jesus Christ wrong in teaching? cause i never heard about the 'feminime' side of God in heaven.

 

[heaven_id]

If God is not male or female then Jesus Christ should tought us to call God as 'our Parent in heaven'And truly i tell you by the blood of Jesus that God is MALE.

 

[Quahom1]

Could be Jesus Christ wrong in teaching? cause i never heard about the 'feminime' side of God in heaven.

Nope you haven't. Just my opinion and thoughts.

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[namesdontmatter]

Peace and blessings of God be upon you, InquisitiveInHalifax

So, why is it that in these monotheistic/abrahamic religions women seem to be below men?

Islam, for one, puts women equal to men. Different in their respective roles, but equal all the same.

In reading one of the other threads someone had mentioned that in the Koran it says that men may have as many wives as they are able to support and limitless concubines. This hardly seem fair to the women, does this not make them sexual objects?

Muslims are allowed 4 wives, assuming they are able to support them and treat them with respect. The woman, however, also has a word in whether or not her husband takes a second wife. This may sound odd to westerners, but I have seen families that work, in which a man has multiple wives.

Getting back on topic, I'd like to explain my view on why God is portrayed as a man in the religions of the world. A simple answer is that that is how He revealed himself.

If you take a look at almost any culture on the planet, the man is characterized as being: stronger, faster, and hardier than women (generally speaking of course). This is not an insult to the gender, but a fact. The man sustains the woman, protects the woman, and often times guides the woman. I know that this is how it is with my wife and I.

Ask yourself this:
If you were scared, walking down a dark street wherein menacing shadows make your hair stand on end, would you rather have a woman at your side? Or a man?
If you were having troubles with your bills and felt lost as to how you were going to make it to the end of the month, is it a man or a woman you would ask for assistance?
If you needed answers to questions you did not know, would you go to a man for guidance, or a woman?

I think the answers to these questions are why most religions place their God as a male. While God is best for a protecter, a guide, and a sustainer, a man is the next best thing for a woman.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I have tremendous respect for the female gender, but I recognize that their role in this life is different from that of a man.

--Would a rose, by any other...?

 

[Quahom1]

Peace and blessings of God be upon you, InquisitiveInHalifax

Islam, for one, puts women equal to men. Different in their respective roles, but equal all the same.

The religion may, but some of the people who follow it do not. Therefore they do not follow Islam.

Muslims are allowed 4 wives, assuming they are able to support them and treat them with respect. The woman, however, also has a word in whether or not her husband takes a second wife. This may sound odd to westerners, but I have seen families that work, in which a man has multiple wives.

Scripture says Man, "love your wife". And Scripture says Woman "Respect your husband". My thinking is if you are respecting your wife, instead of loving her (big difference in the western world), that might be a cause for the problems (not that the women of the west know how to respect their men anyway proper, nor that the men know how to love the women anyway proper).

Getting back on topic, I'd like to explain my view on why God is portrayed as a man in the religions of the world. A simple answer is that that is how He revealed himself.

If you take a look at almost any culture on the planet, the man is characterized as being: stronger, faster, and hardier than women (generally speaking of course). This is not an insult to the gender, but a fact. The man sustains the woman, protects the woman, and often times guides the woman. I know that this is how it is with my wife and I.

Which is very fine for you and she. Make no mistake about this.

Ask yourself this:
If you were scared, walking down a dark street wherein menacing shadows make your hair stand on end, would you rather have a woman at your side? Or a man?
If you were having troubles with your bills and felt lost as to how you were going to make it to the end of the month, is it a man or a woman you would ask for assistance?
If you needed answers to questions you did not know, would you go to a man for guidance, or a woman?

I think the answers to these questions are why most religions place their God as a male. While God is best for a protecter, a guide, and a sustainer, a man is the next best thing for a woman.

You've set yourself up for a fall my friend. In the west, the woman can kick ass (if so trained). If the woman is educated in the ways of money, then I would go to her, before I went to a family member who had no clue.

If I had questions to issues pertaining to man, I would go to a man, and if the issues pertained to a bad or failing relationship with my woman, I would go to a man (the wisest man I could find). That one is beyond reproach.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I have tremendous respect for the female gender, but I recognize that their role in this life is different from that of a man.

There will come a time, when you are in error, and a woman you "respect" will stand up to you and say you are in error. Will you accept the role change then?

I ask, because I have learned the hard way, never underestimate your mate.

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[Silverbackman]

If there is only one true God of what gender is he/she? I believe that if there is only one true God that he/she must be above gender. So, why is it that in these monotheistic/abrahamic religions women seem to be below men? In reading one of the other threads someone had mentioned that in the Koran it says that men may have as many wives as they are able to support and limitless concubines. This hardly seem fair to the women, does this not make them sexual objects? Possessions even? It seems to me that there is a lack of balance here. I'm sorry if I offended anyone or misquoted the Koran, it is not my intention. This is truly troubling to me.

Without reading any of the other posts I can answer this question right away. Abrahamic religions for the most part no different than any other religion (except Eastern Faith). Is God male? Of course he is not, God for one is not being or an object, he is an idea or a thought. God ain't female either. No way in hell.

Religions that make God into a superhuman-like creatures are false, that is just far too primitive. It is okay to personify God, as long as you know you are speaking metaphorically.

In my belief, I refer to one of the two aspects of God as "Her" and the other aspect of God "Him". This is okay as long as you don't get cought up with God being a man or a woman, this force/idea/philosophy we call God is not some mythological being!

Now don't get me wrong, I am no feminist who thinks that men and women are exactly the same every way blah blah blah. I do actually think it is better for women to pursue traditional roles as they work the best (such as a full time mom and homemaker) but this is apart of our physical reality, not our spiritual reality. These two are totally different things.

Abrahamicism uses fear tactics to keep their number of adherents high. If there was no stupid "worship Jesus or go to hell" doctrine Abrahamic religions would be at the status of mythology.

God is not a simple concept, He/She is the most complex concept in this entire universe and the only way to find God is to to search for him yourself (through science and meditation), not by following rigid dogma with blind faith.

No offense to any Abrahamics.