Law and Sanctions

PrimaVera

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The subject of law and sanctions has arisen within the context of Baha'is and political partisanship. I feel the issues are important enough to bear a distinct thread, so I'm taking the liberty of breaking the subject out into a new thread.

In that thread, Lunamoth wrote:

I am making a case that the Baha'i guidance of imposing sanctions is not just, it is not compassionate, it is not rational.

I disagree completely with imposing sanctions on anyone. Yes, I also take issue with sanctioning people who get married without parental consent.

It's difficult to dissect all of this at once. These kinds of statements have, as their basis, a number of assumptions which, themselves, may or may not be valid--assumptions about the meaning of "justice," "compassion" and "rational."

But, I don't want to debate semantics. Subtle shaes of semantics, for me, are not what places the whole question of sanctions on a vast plain of gray rather than a clearly delineated landscape of black-and-white. For me, the central question is, what if both the prohibitions and the sanctions are imbedded in the law? Ought we disregard the sanctions when the wisdom of a particular prohibition eludes us? Is there not some point where we have to say that God understands the balance between justice and compassion better than we do?

In some sense, are we not talking about the fundamental question of all religion--an acceptance of God's will over our own will, be it individual or collective?
 
Sometimes I think people want the best of both worlds because they live in a relativistic society... No one likes sanctions regardless though whether they be civil or religious... Most all religions i know have laws and unique kinds of sanctions associated with them.

- Art
 
Perhaps some quotes to illuminate the question - justice is closely related to reward and punishment, but not only to reward and punishment. But it must be seen to have a fair appreciation of the Baha'i view of justice.


"Behold the disturbances which, for many a long year, have afflicted the earth, and the perturbation that hath seized its peoples. It hath either been ravaged by war, or tormented by sudden and unforeseen calamities. Though the world is encompassed with misery and distress, yet no man hath paused to reflect what the cause or source of that may be. Whenever the True Counsellor uttered a word in admonishment, lo, they all denounced Him as a mover of mischief and rejected His claim. How bewildering, how confusing is such behavior! No two men can be found who may be said to be outwardly and inwardly united. The evidences of discord and malice are apparent everywhere, though all were made for harmony and union. The Great Being saith: O well-beloved ones! The tabernacle of unity hath been raised; regard ye not one another as strangers. Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. We cherish the hope that the light of justice may shine upon the world and sanctify it from tyranny. If the rulers and kings of the earth, the symbols of the power of God, exalted be His glory, arise and resolve to dedicate themselves to whatever will promote the highest interests of the whole of humanity, the reign of justice will assuredly be established amongst the children of men, and the effulgence of its light will envelop the whole earth. The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment.... In another passage He hath written: Take heed, O concourse of the rulers of the world! There is no force on earth that can equal in its conquering power the force of justice and wisdom.... Blessed is the king who marcheth with the ensign of wisdom unfurled before him, and the battalions of justice massed in his rear. He verily is the ornament that adorneth the brow of peace and the countenance of security. There can be no doubt whatever that if the day star of justice, which the clouds of tyranny have obscured, were to shed its light upon men, the face of the earth would be completely transformed.

The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment. And in another connection He hath uttered the following in the eloquent tongue: Justice hath a mighty force at its command. It is none other than reward and punishment for the deeds of men. By the power of this force the tabernacle of order is established throughout the world, causing the wicked to restrain their natures for fear of punishment.

In another passage He hath written: Take heed, O concourse of the rulers of the world! There is no force on earth that can equal in its conquering power the force of justice and wisdom. I, verily, affirm that there is not, and hath never been, a host more mighty than that of justice and wisdom. Blessed is the king who marcheth with the ensign of wisdom unfurled before him, and the battalions of justice massed in his rear. He verily is the ornament that adorneth the brow of peace and the countenance of security. There can be no doubt whatever that if the day-star of justice, which the clouds of tyranny have obscured, were to shed its light upon men, the face of the earth would be completely transformed...."

"O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs should be referred to the Ministers of the House of Justice that they may act according to the needs and requirements of the time. They that, for the sake of God, arise to serve His Cause, are the recipients of divine inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is incumbent upon all to be obedient unto them. All matters of State should be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of worship must be observed according to that which God hath revealed in His Book."

But what about mercy? Is not God "all about" love?

"O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind --except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion."

Such I beleive are some of the main examples of the rational for justice, reward, punishment, and mercy. Perhaps we need to hear more about mercy... perhaps another can find some quotes, I having an obligation of the moment.
 
It seems to me that you have to draw the line somewhere when you talk about accepting God's will in areas where it makes no sense to us. It is a little more clear in the Baha'i faith, it seems, but in older religions, how can you say that, 1. something doesn't make sense because God understands things better than we do, vs. 2. something doesn't make sense because somewhere along the line, things got misinterpreted or misunderstood, and it's not really God's will, it's just a weird thing that people follow because they are not being critical enough.

Another thing that comes to mind along with this is, if all religions have their rise and fall - the season analogy - how do we know when the Baha'i faith has apexed and is falling? Surely there's no clear cut time when things are suddenly all misunderstood, so that means there are gradual changes that the majority will not notice.. ? There will be an increase in things that make no sense to us and which we might or might not accept? At what point does one start saying that the Faith is no longer what it was meant to be?

- Sarah
 
I'm back....

sara[h]ng said:
It seems to me that you have to draw the line somewhere when you talk about accepting God's will in areas where it makes no sense to us. It is a little more clear in the Baha'i faith, it seems, but in older religions, how can you say that, 1. something doesn't make sense because God understands things better than we do, vs. 2. something doesn't make sense because somewhere along the line, things got misinterpreted or misunderstood, and it's not really God's will, it's just a weird thing that people follow because they are not being critical enough.

If one is going to examin the question of laws, justice, reward and punishment and the like across religions this is indeed a weighty matter.
Indeed, how to tell the difference. Such is one of the reasons for the chastisement of the leaders of religion by every Prophet and often a cause that a new religion is in fact started as a practical matter, it seems to me. Since before Jesus I don't think any religion has managed to survive the appearance of a Prophet. But if one could continue the thread of a question or issue along/across religions one might get a better feal for what is going on than by looking at one religion or another in isolation.

sara[h]ng said:
Another thing that comes to mind along with this is, if all religions have their rise and fall - the season analogy - how do we know when the Baha'i faith has apexed and is falling? Surely there's no clear cut time when things are suddenly all misunderstood, so that means there are gradual changes that the majority will not notice.. ? There will be an increase in things that make no sense to us and which we might or might not accept? At what point does one start saying that the Faith is no longer what it was meant to be?

A question indeed again. I would notice that the cultural expression, and vitality is more in seasonal flow than the core of the religion - the record of the Revelation is generally pretty set after a short time, though interpritations may get layered on. In such a case, reading and informing oneself of the original scripture, with an eye towards circumstance and detail, will tend to be lead aright - if the Revelation itself were to become the direct cause of a fair minded person doing the wrong thing then it would boggle the mind (though an extremist could take any teaching to some absurd extreme to justify themselves.)

As for the Baha'i Faith in particular, well one approach would be to examine the pattern of history, even as such extrapolation has limited value. Christianity and Islam both were around for hundreds of years before the surrounding culture(s) became significantly affected by them - indeed approximately 3-400 years seems to be a significant milestone (in Christianity you had the "arrival" of Christianity to the emperor of Rome, and in Islam you had the founding of the legal schools of thought, and of the flowering of civilization in the form of sciences and arts around then.)

Each religion has it's warnings concerning the time of the next Prophet and the Baha'i Faith has a few as well - but also cautions that the situation will not be as it has been.
 
Thank you for your answers, they made a lot of sense, but I have a further question.

I've always heard that the fact, that women cannot serve in that highest Baha'i 'office' (I apologize that I can't think of the words,) is a bit of a test regarding the individual's will (in this case, maybe a feminist's) vs. God's. If you look throughout history, isn't it the case that while there is generally a bit more equality to women in the major religions, it is still a male dominated world. I could be wrong, I can't really think of any examples other than specifics in Islam. But my point is, if you look at this particular thing, which doesn't really make sense to us, and accept it because it is God's will and because the past religions have shown similar ideas - and we know that there should be equality, both from common sense and from other Baha'i thoughts on the topic - couldn't this be an example that goes against the idea of looking for backing for arguable laws in the other religions?

- Sarah
 
Baha'i Laws

Dear Friends,

As a Baha'i I not only willfully, but joyfully accepted all of the Baha'i Laws as binding upon myself, and yes I had read the Aqdas at that time. I did not like some, I did not understand some, and I outright disagreed with some (although apparently at the time I missed the one prohibiting non-violent civil disobedience).

My objection is to the sanctioning of Baha'is--essentially cutting them out from the community affairs--in an unfair and discriminating manner for failure to follow what boils down to a personal chastity law.

I call bad fruit.

I invite my Baha'i friends here--shall we take an itemized look at some of the laws of the Aqdas?

peace,
lunamoth
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

Dear Luna,

lunamoth said:
My objection is to the sanctioning of Baha'is--essentially cutting them out from the community affairs--in an unfair and discriminating manner for failure to follow what boils down to a personal chastity law.

I understand what your objection is. I don't understand the basis for your objection. What makes these particular sanctions "unfair and discriminating"?

I invite my Baha'i friends here--shall we take an itemized look at some of the laws of the Aqdas?

Well, I don't see why it should be limited to some of the laws, but I have no objection...just so long as we can also look the passage from the Bible that describes the "fruit of the spirit".
:)
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

PrimaVera said:
Dear Luna,
I understand what your objection is. I don't understand the basis for your objection. What makes these particular sanctions "unfair and discriminating"?

Are you a perfect Baha'i? Do you follow all the laws perfectly?

Well, I don't see why it should be limited to some of the laws, but I have no objection...just so long as we can also look the passage from the Bible that describes the "fruit of the spirit".
:)

I don't normally go for bludgeoning others with scripture, but since we are playing by fundamentalist rules, of course we can.

Life by the Spirit
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5, NIV)

So you accept Paul's epistles, or even just Galatians, as authoritative for Baha'is?

Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by
fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately
take another's life, him also shall ye put to death.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 41)


While we are at it, exactly where in the Aqdas does Baha'u'llah say that the penalty for homosexual relationships is exclusion from the community.

Thanks,
lunamoth
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

The "Fruits of the Spirit" are best covered in the Epistles, in particular the Epistle to the Church of Galatia:

"5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(He is of coursze, refering to the Mosaic Law)

5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
(King James Bible, Galatians)

Verses 10,11-13 (the first in blue above) to me speaks of those who choose to make trouble for the community through some kind of behavior which is not OF the community. Baha`i's are called upon to exercise judgement and justice in those circumstances.

Verses 19-25 fits in well with Baha`i Law. Again, Baha`i's are called upon to judge and work justice and given those tools by revelation.

As to the verses in red (6: 1-7), this is a very good description of the process of counseling, more counseling, warning, more warning and eventual removal of rights all for what purpose? Not to cast out, but to bring back.

"The general basis for the deprivation of voting rights is of course gross immorality and open opposition to the administrative functions of the Faith, and disregard for the laws of personal status; and even then it is the duty of the National Assembly, before exercising this sanction, to confer with the individuals involved in a loving manner to help them overcome the problems; second, to warn them that they must desist; three, to issue further warning if the original warnings are not followed; and finally, if there seems no other way to handle the matter, then a person may be deprived of voting rights.
"The Guardian however, wishes the National Assemblies to be very cautious in using this sanction, because it might be abused, and then lose its efficacy. It should be used only when there seems no other way to solve the problem."
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 51)


Even a declared covenant breaker can come back to the faith if they are sincere.

Regards,
Scott
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

Popeyesays said:
"5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(He is of coursze, refering to the Mosaic Law)

Why would you conclude this?

peace,
lunamoth
 
I'm sure you guys all took the Teaching Christians Effectively course, or at least read the teacing manual, which relies upon a literalist interpretation of the Bible (on behalf of the Christian, that is. I know you all are free to call most of it spritual or metaphorical as you wish.) So anyway, I don't stand a chance here.

But returning to the Aqdas:

13
God hath exempted women who are in their
courses from obligatory prayer and fasting. Let them,
instead, after performance of their ablutions, give
praise unto God, repeating ninety-five times between
the noon of one day and the next "Glorified be God, the  24 
Lord of Splendour and Beauty". Thus hath it been
decreed in the Book, if ye be of them that comprehend.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 23)


We have divided inheritance into seven categories:
to the children, We have allotted nine parts comprising
five hundred and forty shares; to the wife, eight parts
comprising four hundred and eighty shares; to the
father, seven parts comprising four hundred and twenty
shares; to the mother, six parts comprising three
hundred and sixty shares; to the brothers, five parts or
three hundred shares; to the sisters, four parts or two
hundred and forty shares;
and to the teachers, three
parts or one hundred and eighty shares. Such was the
ordinance of My Forerunner, He Who extolleth My
Name in the night season and at the break of day.
When We heard the clamour of the children as yet
unborn, We doubled their share and decreased those of
the rest. He, of a truth, hath power to ordain
whatsoever He desireth, and He doeth as He pleaseth
by virtue of His sovereign might.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 26)

Not exactly objectionable, but not exactly equal between men and women either.

yours,
lunamoth
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

lunamoth said:
Are you a perfect Baha'i? Do you follow all the laws perfectly?

No. I'm not sure how that answers my question. Are you claiming that I'm sitting in judgement of any particular individual?

I don't normally go for bludgeoning others with scripture, but since we are playing by fundamentalist rules, of course we can.

When did we start playing by fundamentalist rules? You suggested quoting the Aqdas, and quoting only some of it at that.

So you accept Paul's epistles, or even just Galatians, as authoritative for Baha'is?

Actually, that's precisely the passage I had in mind. Now, consider the implications of the text you highlighted. If one is not living in the spirit, is one under the law?

Having said that, is there any particular reason you left out the remainder of the paragraph you quoted from the Kitab-i-Aqdas? In particular, "Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book."

While we are at it, exactly where in the Aqdas does Baha'u'llah say that the penalty for homosexual relationships is exclusion from the community.

I hadn't thought you were going to challenge the notion that these sanctions are embedded in the law itself, but we can start with "When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hat purposed, Who hat branched from this Ancient Root." Then we can refer to the Kitab-i-Ahd, wherein Baha'u'llah makes explicit the reference of this passage to `Abdu'l-Baha. Then, we can go through `Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament to the provisional authority of Shoghi Effendi and the legislative authority of the Universal House of Justice.

In all of this, I'm still having difficulty undrestanding the basis of your objection to these sanctions. Clearly they violate your sense of justice and fairplay, but I sincerely want to understand what drives your sense of justice and fairplay.

I had thought I was asking these questions in a non-judgemental way. I'm sorry if you came away with any such impression, but that's not my intent. Clearly we disagree. What harm is there in exploring the basis and nature of our disagreement? Can we do that without either going on the offensive or the defensive?
 
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Another

25
We have assigned the residence and personal
clothing of the deceased to the male, not female,  28 
offspring, nor to the other heirs. He, verily, is the
Munificent, the All-Bountiful.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 27)
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

PrimaVera said:
Actually, that's precisely the passage I had in mind. Now, consider the implications of the text you highlighted. If one is not living in the spirit, is one under the law?

Faith or Observance of the Law
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[g] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


peace,
lunamoth
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

PrimaVera said:
Actually, that's precisely the passage I had in mind. Now, consider the implications of the text you highlighted. If one is not living in the spirit, is one under the law?/QUOTE]

Are Paul's epistles authoritative for Baha'is?
 
Re: Baha'i Laws

lunamoth said:
PrimaVera said:
Actually, that's precisely the passage I had in mind. Now, consider the implications of the text you highlighted. If one is not living in the spirit, is one under the law?/QUOTE]

Are Paul's epistles authoritative for Baha'is?

Yes, though I'm not obligated to accept an interpretation of those epistles that's clearly contrary to what Baha'u'llah has written.

Now, can we please stop this "fundamentalist rules" thing and get back to exploring the nature of our disagreement before Brian shows up and shuts down the thread for all the animosity? I'm not trying to callenge your beliefs. I just don't understand them. Repeatedly trying to justify your beliefs doesn't help me to understand them.
 
Yes,
I'm mad. I'm breaking my own personal code of conduct, the spirit of the COC here, and quite lacking in the fruits of the Spirit at the moment.

I was living quite peacefully here at CR until a barage of Baha'i showed up to Blazen the Name of Baha'u'llah, telling everyone that they understand everyone else's religion better, that we all have our own religions wrong, we're all "inside a box", thousands of years of wisdom are written off as useless, problematic man-made dogma. It is proselytization, pure and simple. It may be presented in a gentle, obtuse manner, but it is clearly proselytization of the Baha'i Faith.

Interfaith dialogue? That requires an openness to learning about another's beliefs, not telling them that you understand it all better and have all the answers.

Expecting sanctions myself at an moment.

BTW, the views expressed by lunamoth in this forum are her own and in no way should reflect the policy of this forum or its hosts.

peace out,
lunamoth
 
L>While we are at it, exactly where in the Aqdas does Baha'u'llah say that the penalty for homosexual relationships is exclusion from the community?

As I trust you're well aware, Baha'u'llah (and 'Abdu'l-Baha after Him) each delegated interpretive authority to a specific individual, and Shoghi Effendi (for one) made this rule quite clear, as was his right and duty.

Peace,

Bruce
 
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