Christians converting to Islam and Judaism

You don't even see this one mind in Christian circles. Nor amongst the brotherhood of other religions. And that is unfortunate.

As far as lies, maybe in some cases. But even in your own signature line you have: "He looked beyond my fault and saw my need."
 
Dondi said:
I totally agree. That lack of Love is due to a lack of the Source of Love.

And hypocrites are not true worshippers, either, whatever religion they some from.

No one is bashing Christians or Jesus here. But I think you and I will be surprised to see who makes it into the kingdom of heaven.

I fail to see why you are on the offensive here. Doesn't God love everyone, even if that love isn't reciprocated? But we put ourselves into hell by not seeking the One who can make us right. Instead, we seek the very things that will kill our spirit. That is my whole point and the point of the message found in all these religions.

we agree on the first part.

the reason i seem defensive (though this is like a waste of my time it seems) is because it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.

so people want to try & enter a different way. if this was all the same like you want to suggest, then people would not have such a problem with Jesus & Calvary. ah but the fact is, people DO have a problem with the gospel & blood of of Christ & they have a problem with people who believe in Jesus that way.

do you see me go after the muslims & jews?
do you see me go after the hindus & new agers for their beliefs?
no you do not!
 
I totally agree. That lack of Love is due to a lack of the Source of Love
I disagree, no lack from source...simply man denying source and deciding, choosing not to act as a conduit for same.
i do not see one mind in all these religions nor do i see one mouth or one love. we might be working toward that same goal here at CR & in some individual churches, but in the real world it is a different picture. either Jesus is who & what the scriptures say He is, or he is not & people are seeking something different & they do not realize that.
yes perception is a tricky thing. The Dalai Lama says, you will know you are enlightened when everyone you see, you see as enlightened. The more I see of the world the more I am amazed at the good nature, compassion and love of people in general. I've hitchiked coast to coast in the US more times than I can remember. Not one person had a reason to pick me up, and they all had hundreds of reasons not to, yet they did, they brought me to their homes, they fed me and gave me a place ot sleep.
the reason i seem defensive (though this is like a waste of my time it seems) is because it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.
come on my brother, don't you see how this is entirely disrespectful to the 70% of the world that doesn't believe in Jesus, or the 99% of the world that doesn't believe just like you? How can you demand respect when you don't give it.

We are on this planet together, seek first to understand then to be undersood-covey and I always have to remind myself all of this is about us, me. It is upto me to grow to understand the rest of you, not upto the rest of you to change.

The world is a wonderful place, do we have issues, yeah...but it isn't done yet, the bible is full of people having issues, and working them out, in a variety of ways...nothing changed here. And true, the mob mentality created by some groups, organizations, places of worship, countries...etc does not always seem divine, but we either think that G-d is involved in all or we don't...and again, it is all a work in progress. I don't think there is anything unique about CR, people have open discusssions everywhere...it is just in venues like this we can see it from everywhere...
 
wil said:
come on my brother, don't you see how this is entirely disrespectful to the 70% of the world that doesn't believe in Jesus, or the 99% of the world that doesn't believe just like you? How can you demand respect when you don't give it.

in other words Jesus & the bible is disrespectful? is that what you are saying?

i give 100% respect to others, & there are others here who do as well who do not see things the same way.
i have time & time again made a stand for just about every religion & individuals represented here as their right, & so have others, even when i do not agree with everything.
so dont tell me i dont respect others AND show respect to others for their beliefs.

i believe in Jesus & the bible. if people have a problem with that, then it is their problem.
 
Bandit said:
in other words Jesus & the bible is disrespectful? is that what you are saying?...i give 100% respect to others,
No your believing that is not disrespectful.
JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.
however demanding that others believe as you (or I) do I think is disrespectful. Are you not out and out saying in the above quote that all other belief systems are wrong and everyone should try to understand you and yours?
i believe in Jesus & the bible. if people have a problem with that, then it is their problem.
I don't think most people have issues with you or me or anyone else believing that, it is when we knock on their door, push our feelings in their face, tell others they are going to hell...that is when issues arise.

I'm saying when you say anything is the ONLY WAY...that is disrespectful and causes others to get on the defensive and strike back at your beliefs despite your line of thinking that
do you see me go after the muslims & jews?
do you see me go after the hindus & new agers for their beliefs?
no you do not!
can I jump back on the cloud yet?
 
wil said:
No your believing that is not disrespectful. however demanding that others believe as you (or I) do I think is disrespectful. Are you not out and out saying in the above quote that all other belief systems are wrong and everyone should try to understand you and yours? I don't think most people have issues with you or me or anyone else believing that, it is when we knock on their door, push our feelings in their face, tell others they are going to hell...that is when issues arise.

I'm saying when you say anything is the ONLY WAY...that is disrespectful and causes others to get on the defensive and strike back at your beliefs despite your line of thinking that can I jump back on the cloud yet?

do you see me demanding others to believe what i believe, Wil? do you?
no you do not.

i try to understand what others believe & have been very successful doing that & it is very easy to do.

Jesus said, (remember Jesus said this not me)

Jesus said He is the way, the truth & the life & no man comes to the father but by him. it is written (of course this goes just for those who believe in Jesus & the bible) 'to attempt to enter any other way is as a thief & a robber.'

if you have an issue with that, then take it up with Jesus, instead of me.
 
Bandit said:
we agree on the first part.

the reason i seem defensive (though this is like a waste of my time it seems) is because it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life. it is not my fault people choose not to believe that or even TRY to understand it, just because they dont like it or follow some other religious leader.

so people want to try & enter a different way. if this was all the same like you want to suggest, then people would not have such a problem with Jesus & Calvary. ah but the fact is, people DO have a problem with the gospel & blood of of Christ & they have a problem with people who believe in Jesus that way.

do you see me go after the muslims & jews?
do you see me go after the hindus & new agers for their beliefs?
no you do not!

I'm not shooting down anyone's beliefs, particularly in Jesus Christ. I consider myself as Christian. But I also find value in other religions. I believe the kingdom of God is not far from people. It's as close as your heart, if you are seeking God. I believe there is an undercurrent of God's Spirit in anyone who seeks Him out.

Look, God put people where they are. Even Paul states so in the book of Acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

So for someone in a society where the main religion is NOT Christianity and Christianity is banned or adherance to Chritianity would bring ostracism from family and friends, even death, that person is not going to be persuaded too easily to the Christian belief. Do you think this person would give up everything just to do abandon the religion of his country? In this case, don't you think God would operate within the boundaries this person's understanding of what he DOES believe about Him? Don't you think in this case, that the blood of Christ would reach this dear seeker of God, who is scared to believe otherwise?


Dispite differences in dogma, the fundamental principle of love is still in the belief. The love of God knows no boundaries.
 
Dondi said:
I'm not shooting down anyone's beliefs, particularly in Jesus Christ. I consider myself as Christian. But I also find value in other religions. I believe the kingdom of God is not far from people. It's as close as your heart, if you are seeking God. I believe there is an undercurrent of God's Spirit in anyone who seeks Him out.

Look, God put people where they are. Even Paul states so in the book of Acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

So for someone in a society where the main religion is NOT Christianity and Christianity is banned or adherance to Chritianity would bring ostracism from family and friends, even death, that person is not going to be persuaded too easily to the Christian belief. Do you think this person would give up everything just to do abandon the religion of his country? In this case, don't you think God would operate within the boundaries this person's understanding of what he DOES believe about Him? Don't you think in this case, that the blood of Christ would reach this dear seeker of God, who is scared to believe otherwise?


Dispite differences in dogma, the fundamental principle of love is still in the belief. The love of God knows no boundaries.

we have already discussed all that Dondi & i said we are in agreement. I am not the judge & i dont know how it will all go on that side. i do not preach people into hell nor do i preach them into heaven.

any way i am done with this thread.
i think i shall drive back down to the Parsha.:)
 
Dondi said:
So for someone in a society where the main religion is NOT Christianity and Christianity is banned or adherance to Chritianity would bring ostracism from family and friends, even death, that person is not going to be persuaded too easily to the Christian belief. Do you think this person would give up everything just to do abandon the religion of his country? In this case, don't you think God would operate within the boundaries this person's understanding of what he DOES believe about Him? Don't you think in this case, that the blood of Christ would reach this dear seeker of God, who is scared to believe otherwise?


Dispite differences in dogma, the fundamental principle of love is still in the belief. The love of God knows no boundaries.

i just have one thought for you Dondi on this post, then i am done.

if they come to chop off your head or throw you into prison for believing in Christ & having a bible, which happens every single day on our little cozy planet of 'LOVE',
are you going to deny that Jesus is the Christ to save your life?
 
You know... Bandit and I converse a lot in PM's and A few days ago we were talking about this conversion thread. I told him that for a lot of ppl that believe they are in truth sure are hateful and have the tendancy to attack Christians who also believe they are in truth. The attacks usually revolve around Jesus Christ.. which is informative in itself because we are told that we would be persecuted for His names sake. Because we believe in what Jesus taught we are to be held to a higher state of morality than others.. Its true though because look what happens.. If a Christian errs in the least bit it reflects poorly on all Christians because that one Christians mistake MUST mean that ALL Christians are less than perfect.. God forbid! hence the hypocracy judgements.. I also wonder if ppl assume because our God judges that we must also judge.. Sorry I judge noone. Who am I to judge.. Jesus shed His blood for me as well as everyone else.

Its actually a blessing for us to be persecuted.. so rather than get angry and defensive.. I say heap it up!

Someone said that ppl would be surprised who makes it to the Kingdom of Heaven and I hope that everyone does because the alternative I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy and Its not our place to decide who makes it to heaven.. thats Gods decision and our commission was to share the message of salvation to all that would hear. Is that so bad? You either want to hear it or you dont.

FS
 
Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Yeah, but Faithfulservant, I think wil is referring to the attitude of other Christians here, not anything God expects of us. Besides, I don't believe God says it in anything like such an authoritarian manner.

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

A command.. it sounds pretty cut and dry to me.
 
The interesting thing about playing in a band, is that you form friendships, and lifelong partnerships ... and after enough practices and concerts, you really get your act down together. You find that in almost any circumstances, you're on the same page with the other band members ... and it is only natural that you experience something of what each member is going through. At the same time, the rest of the band is strongly influenced by what you're going through ... but all in all, things tend to round themselves out, and so long as the cohesive spirit of the band itself remains present, so also will the band - as an entity - live and thrive.

Now apply this same thinking to a larger musical entity, such as a symphony orchestra - and one that travels, so that its members are often together, much like a band. Don't forget that even within one orchestra there are sections. There are woodwinds, brass, strings, and percussion ... not to mention any number of sub-groupings of these. And yet, if we are considering the Moscow Symphony Orchestra as an example, most would agree that there is a unique style, a repertoire, and thus collectively, a character which that orchestra takes on. This character is not defined strictly by the woodwinds, or by the brass, or by any one section ... although in some orchestral groups I'm sure there is recognition of each of these. Overall, a famous orchestra stands out among its fans for many reasons, but it still holds for the discerning ear a certain character and quality.

Now take this idea further. In this very large world of ours, united in many ways but diverse in others, no one in his right mind would argue that many good and famous symphony orchestras exist ... each with its own repertoire, style and character, as mentioned above. Some may even seem to be in competition with each other, though usually in a friendly manner - by sheer virtue of the literal harmony and spirit of cooperation that is necessary to even form the orchestra in the first place, much less become "good." Overall, however, orchestral music - though diverse - is all related as belonging to a common genre ... and when one attends the symphony one does not usually expect to hear heavy metal, or jazz, or country music ... notwithstanding certain bold experiments of Kronos and the like. :p

The point is ... musicians come in all shapes & sizes, all colors & varieties, and practice their art through all types of media, including the beautiful power of the (unaccompanied) human voice itself. Yet all is music. An artist can rise to great heights as a soloist, and much great work has been accomplished this way. Often, musicians collaborate in a band, jazz group, or orchestra ... and this metaphor opens us to many, many possibilities. An orchestral group, for instance, usually has a Conductor. And naturally, if I have played with the same group for many years, sharing any number of moving & personal experiences ... I will come to respect, cherish, and even revere my particular Conductor - more than that of any other orchestra. Does that mean he's better?

Even conductors, on occasion, might seek to outdo each other, but I would submit that this is all in the healthy, happy spirit of a positive challenge. It is a test of one's creativity, of one's innovation. We see many of the same elements of this metaphor in the sporting arena ... but I think the spirit of cooperation is somewhat less prominent, and that of competition - healthy or otherwise - receives undue stress.

I find this metaphor ideal for talking about religions, denominations, religious leaders, harmony (or the desperate need thereof) between followers - both within a given denomination & amongst different religions, etc. In fact, I like to hope (and am certain, for & of myself) ... that in God's Orchestra, to be somewhat quaint - there is room for everybody. For if there is not, then surely, somewhere, somehow ... I have misunderstood.

May you follow faithfully in the footsteps of the drummer (bandleader, or Conductor) you have chosen ...

Peace,

andrew
 
If anyone chooses to leave one faith for another, it is not ours to try and stop them, for words will not change anything. Only our actions will catch the eyes of others, only our daily life's words will bend their ears (if they are to be bent at all).

In the case of Christianity, well there is the interesting story of the shepard and the wayward lamb. True, the lamb ran off, and true the shepard went looking for him, but the lamb came back to the call of the shepard. I suspect that if the lamb had not finally heeded the call of the shepard, the shepard would have reluctantly gone back to the flock...

Moral is, we can look for and call out to, but unless they come to the sound, we must go back empty handed.

Then the lamb, becomes the "prodigal son", and we wait and hope...

v/r

Q
 
And the words of salvation are a wonderful message and people are eager to hear if it can be offered as an option and not as the only method. Be it the only method for you, so be it. And you are a good person for it. Christians who live by truth are beautiful people. But there is another truth: There are still good people out there who the True Heavenly Father are looking after that will never know Jesus and don't necessarily need him.

Bandit said:
i just have one thought for you Dondi on this post, then i am done.

if they come to chop off your head or throw you into prison for believing in Christ & having a bible, which happens every single day on our little cozy planet of 'LOVE',
are you going to deny that Jesus is the Christ to save your life?
Of course I am not Dondi,

But I'd like to say in response to this post that Peter denied Jesus three times to save his life and in reward Peter is the rock in which Christendom was built on.

Jesus doesn't need a defense team. He didn't request one when he was up against Pilate so I'm left to believe that faith is within me and needs no validation from man. It is a brave man that gets his head chopped off because he doesn't want to lay his bible down. Those three kids that were thrown into the furnace for not worshipping the golden idol were definately warriors. But know that everyone has a battle and fortunately that is a battle we don't have to deal with. Now is the time to focus on unity and accepting people for who they are so that they can accept you and if you wish to bring people to Jesus, that is round about the only way to do it.
 
truthseeker said:
And the words of salvation are a wonderful message and people are eager to hear if it can be offered as an option and not as the only method. Be it the only method for you, so be it. And you are a good person for it. Christians who live by truth are beautiful people. But there is another truth: There are still good people out there who the True Heavenly Father are looking after that will never know Jesus and don't necessarily need him.


Of course I am not Dondi,

But I'd like to say in response to this post that Peter denied Jesus three times to save his life and in reward Peter is the rock in which Christendom was built on.

Jesus doesn't need a defense team. He didn't request one when he was up against Pilate so I'm left to believe that faith is within me and needs no validation from man. It is a brave man that gets his head chopped off because he doesn't want to lay his bible down. Those three kids that were thrown into the furnace for not worshipping the golden idol were definately warriors. But know that everyone has a battle and fortunately that is a battle we don't have to deal with. Now is the time to focus on unity and accepting people for who they are so that they can accept you and if you wish to bring people to Jesus, that is round about the only way to do it.

Great post, truthseeker. Thank you for the reminder about Peter--like someone opened a window for me.

peace,
lunamoth
 
Wow, Bandit, I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but I don't ever recall seeing you so angry. This is a side of you I haven't seen before. Was there something said in this thread to get you so upset?

Bandit said:
it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life.

As far as I can see nearly everyone contributing to this thread, with the obvious exception of me, is a Christian. I don't see how anyone identifying as a Christian would disrespect Christ's sacrifice, and I didn't read anything like that here. Of course, it could be that you saw something that slipped by me.

Seeing as how I'm the obvious non-Christian here, I feel obliged to answer for my statements. I hope you don't think that I intended any disrespect for Christians, Christianity, or the belief in Jesus Christ as saviour. I hope you can understand that the fact that I do not share your belief that following Jesus Christ is the only way to get to heaven, does not mean that I hold you in contempt for so believing. I certainly do not intend any disrespect for Christ Himself, either. Perhaps you think that my lack of following Him is disrespect in and of itself.

Scarlet Pimpernel said:
I didn't ever actually reject the Bible, but the way I looked at it changed. I still believe that the Spirit and word of God can be found through reading it.
...
I believe that belief in Jesus Christ is one way to get closer to God, but I don't believe that Christians hold a monopoly on salvation or the Holy Spirit.

These statements, and others, of mine were never intended as bashing. I was only trying to answer the question posed in the original post. In fact, I was trying to emhasize how much respect I do have for the Bible, Christianity, and Christ.

I know I said that the hypocrisy I saw among Christians was one thing that drove me away from the Church, but I never thought for a moment that Christians have a monopoly on hypocrisy, either. I think it was lunamoth (the post is on the previous page and I can't see it) who said that it is often disillusionment, rather than hypocrisy, that drives people away from any belief system. That would have been a better word for me to use. It was a long and painful process in my case, involving many tearful nights of prayer. Moving away from Christianity was NOT a decision that came easily to me. I became increasingly disillusioned with, among other things, how little I saw the message of the Gospels actually being lived out. And since I relocated a lot (still do), I had the opportunity to go to a lot of different churches. I also became disillusioned with what I saw as a lack of respect on the part of the clergy for the intelligence and decision-making ability of the parishioners. It seemed to me that the message of the Gospels was in pretty short supply within Christianity, therefore I needed to start looking for it elsewhere.

Yes, the obvious answer would be "Start by looking within yourself," and I'd like to think I tried to do that. But after feeling such disillusionment, it was too painful for me to remain a part of a church.

I don't want to think I gave you, or anyone else, any cause for such anger and frustration when that was absolutely the last thing I ever intended.
 
{{{{{{Bandit}}}}}}

After reading many many of your posts I know that you do have respect for other religions.

peace,
lunamoth
 
Scarlet Pimpernel said:
Wow, Bandit, I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but I don't ever recall seeing you so angry. This is a side of you I haven't seen before. Was there something said in this thread to get you so upset?
actually no Scarlett. it was a bunch of things that came to recollection when i first joined here that came back to memory. it may look like anger, but deep inside i am not angry. i just get tired of trying to defend what i believe because i see people make it like what i believe is worthless, especially when i know there are so many that do not have the freedom I have. often i see that freedom i find in Christ being taken away from me. .

i know my freedom well & in many ways. i wish all the world had the freedom to choose without fear. when i look at the countries that are NOT EVEN allowed to look at a bible or even mention the name of Jesus, that is what crushes me & i cant stop it & that is what gets me angry. i cant change the past either & i cant stop people from doing what they want to do. some things, i wish i could stop & change, but I am not God to do that.

if you dont want to believe in Jesus in the bible, you have that God given right & you have that freedom to try & find what you are looking for.
maybe someday you will see that Jesus & the love of Christ is not so bad after all.
:)
 
lunamoth said:
{{{{{{Bandit}}}}}}

After reading many many of your posts I know that you do have respect for other religions.

peace,
lunamoth

thank you. i needed that today.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I told him that for a lot of ppl that believe they are in truth sure are hateful and have the tendancy to attack Christians who also believe they are in truth. The attacks usually revolve around Jesus Christ.. .
I think that Christianity is often 'attacked' in the society I live in, especially by the media and some very vocal critics. It's the biggest target and also, it can't be denied, that some people set themselves up as highly visible 'spokespeople' for Christianity when in fact they do not represent the majority, or even the average, Christian view. So these vocal few become the public face of Christianity and draw the fire to all of Christianity. But here at CR I do not see that happening to any large extent. Disagreement, holding different views and expressing them, is not the same as attacking. I do see some intolerance, by both Christians and non-Christians, for conservative or fundamentalist Christian views. Heck, most people here including the Christians don't put much stock in traditional mainstream Christian religions either!

(sorry for chopping up your post, just trying to address a couple specific points) ...which is informative in itself because we are told that we would be persecuted for His names sake. Because we believe in what Jesus taught we are to be held to a higher state of morality than others.. Its true though because look what happens.. If a Christian errs in the least bit it reflects poorly on all Christians because that one Christians mistake MUST mean that ALL Christians are less than perfect..
I've been thinking about this a bit lately, the idea that what some Christians do or do not do affects the reputation of all Christianity. It's just not realistic to think that Christians are going to be perfect and all be unified in their understanding or practice of Christianity. It's unfair, a fallacy I think, to lump everyone together and condemn or praise us all together. The Body of Christ, yes, that is perfect, but we individuals on our own are like Peter who denied and Thomas who doubted, and sometimes like Judas who betrayed...I think of this as the Christian Strawman. Take everything you hate about Christian behavior or ideology (or Muslim, or Jewish, or whatever), talk about it as if all these negatives are the essence of Christianity, and then say it represents all Christians or all Christians other than your group.

God forbid! hence the hypocracy judgements.. I also wonder if ppl assume because our God judges that we must also judge.. Sorry I judge noone. Who am I to judge.. Jesus shed His blood for me as well as everyone else.
It's already been said but I'll say it again, no one is saying that Christianity has cornered the market on hypocracy.

Faithful, I admire your passion and devotion.

peace,
lunamoth
 
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