The Rapture

[Basstian]

On the subject of the post

The "Rapture" has many different schools of thought. Many Different denominations have differing views on what will really take place.
We know and are taught to hope in Christs return. We are told point blank that there will be doubters in the last day saying where is this promise.

Servant I came out of the SDA with bad experiences too. I wasnt saying that to try to insult you and am deeply sorry if it did. I have sit thru many of their seminars they used peoples fear and concern for the future. To lure them in and than indoctrinate them with Ellen White and other misrepresentation of bible prophecy teaching it like it is a salvation issue and "you better be a sabbath keeper or you will be following the beast etc etc etc. All of which someone I believe will answer for one day.

I could have Blasted back verses that would make it look as tho anyone saying Rapture was trying to mislead people..... I DIDNT
Instead I said

Servant you maybe right about this.
But the Truth you Know of Christ is much much Greater and assures me no matter the specifics we will both stand on that day.

It was not my intent to offend you in anyway and I hope you accept my appology The comment about the SDA was not intended as a JAB though reading it now I can understand why you thought it was.

To many Hard things complicate a very simple truth. Debate over how where when and why often distracts people from WHO.

Servant I apologize for what reads like an insult it was not my intent.


Bandit this statement

God always pulled his people out just before the bullets went flying. They say it is all just figurative.

I question that. I see protection in times of trouble for the faithful. But not always a pull out.

 

[Quahom1]

Thanks Siege and, by proxy, WHKeith for a comprehensive overview.

As a corollary to this - I was wondering whether the 'take up' of rapture theology is a comfort and assurance - as WHKeith states - in the face f the realisation by Americans that 'the American dream' is not quite what they thought it to be.

After WWII America was unassailable - even the Cold War was 'won' in a sense - but then the flow of history has turned, Korea signalled something 'not quite right' and Viet Nam was the first significant military defeat, and since that day America has not prosecuted a war to a clear and unarguable success - in fact quite the opposite.

Internally the failure of financial and social dreams, etc. etc. leads to a turning against the world, which is perceived as hostile, and an escape into one of the more 'fantastic' aspects of Scripture: The Rapture.

This is my concern, because in the absence of the overall moderation of the Christian message, rapture theology on its own - in isolation - can justify 'nuking the rest cos we're the best'.

It's a form of ultra-right wing supremacy, and any form of supremacy philosophy is always frightening.

(Not to stretch the point - but the US funding of the Israeli-managed genocide in Palestine is just one such instance of 'justificiation')

Thomas

I don't think the rapture has anything to do with the United States citizens considering themselves superior to anyone, or a consolation prize because it hasn't "won" a war since 1945. I'm not sure how one could claim that the "American Dream" not what was hoped, nor how that corrolates to "Jesus" taking people to heaven in a flash.

Allegedly, the rapture is based on the belief that those who are living at the return of Christ, and who are faithful to Him, will not have to suffer the 42 months of tribulations that will trouble the earth. Those that are dead but were faithful to Christ in life will be brought out of the grave and given a new body. Those that are living, but not faithful to Christ will have to choose their path during the tribulations. The ones that choose Christ will suffer at the hands of some of those who do not.

This is not limited to nor exclusive to the United States.

As far as "nuking" the rest because we're the best, we could have done that anytime over the past 40 years (realistically), if that was our intent. However, that would not be very Christian like now would it...nor would it be condusive to the ecology at large, let alone the people of earth (from a purely selfish perspective, it would not help Americans if the rest of the world were a wasteland, nor would Jesus be very happy with us, I should think).

You have an interesting take on Americans, Thomas. I would like to see what references you used in your research, on determining this interesting theory.

I'm only asking questions and making inquiries here. And I'd really like to know why you believe as you do...

v/r

Q

 

[LVnik]

The "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine that many protestants follow had its beginnings NOT in the orthodox christian tradition, but in the late 19th century by a man named Darby, as he recieved this so called revelation from a 15 year old pentecostal girl by the name of Margaret McDonald, while in a "trance". The doctrine was propigated for some time and was picked up by Scofield who then included the doctrine in his notes of the much used Scoefield reference bible, which is still extensively used by fundamentalist evangelical christians today. To assume that all christians hold this doctrinal belief would be an error. The fact is, most professing christians believe that the events spoken of in the "new testament" will occur simultaneously with the appearance of Messiah, and the end of the present age.
Just a small appendum to help you understand this strange teaching and its origins.

 

[Quahom1]

The "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine that many protestants follow had its beginnings NOT in the orthodox christian tradition, but in the late 19th century by a man named Darby, as he recieved this so called revelation from a 15 year old pentecostal girl by the name of Margaret McDonald, while in a "trance". The doctrine was propigated for some time and was picked up by Scofield who then included the doctrine in his notes of the much used Scoefield reference bible, which is still extensively used by fundamentalist evangelical christians today. To assume that all christians hold this doctrinal belief would be an error. The fact is, most professing christians believe that the events spoken of in the "new testament" will occur simultaneously with the appearance of Messiah, and the end of the present age.
Just a small appendum to help you understand this strange teaching and its origins.

Well, so much for the "Left Behind" series of books.

v/r

Q

 

[InLove]

Hi, and Peace to All Here,

It looks to me as if the original question has been well addressed.

It also appears to me (that's, to me) that the spin-off issue concerning pre-mid-post tribulation is valid and relevent, and has also been very well addressed. Faithfulservant, I know that was a painstaking process. You actually answered some questions I had, and I wasn't even asking! I would like to submit that in my experience with you, I have never thought of you as a "cut and paste long passages of nonsense" type person. And I can tell that you did not do that this time, either. So I find it odd that your sincere attempts to add something valuable seem to have just been dismissed. We seem to be back to "square one". It's all myth anyway--here are the facts?

I appreciate the research and documentation. And who knows? Maybe a fifteen-year-old Pentecostal girl has just as much claim on the truth as any other prophet or sage. It can't be true because "Orthodox Christianity" says so? Perhaps it really depends on one's understanding of what is "orthodox". I'll have to google the legend to find out, I guess. Maybe I will come out of that experience with lots of new enlightenment.

I realize that I am not being as diplomatic here as I usually try to be, but geez!

To post, or not to post--that is the question....oh, well. Geronimo!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[path_of_one]

God always pulled his people out just before the bullets went flying. They say it is all just figurative.
The ones who make it through the great trib are those who sat on the fence post today and are given up to prison and beheaded. This is a different group of people. Not the bride.

God didn't always pull his people out and save them from physical suffering. The disciples and many of the saints were martyred. Missionaries doing his work get killed all the time in third world countries.

I think it is about spiritual protection, not physical protection.

If we are not willing to endure in order to be in service to Christ and others, if we need the comforting thought of not giving our bodies and lives in the ultimate service of God, to be lights in a world gone dark and minister to the lost and needy, to be willing to face the evil in this world with the strength from Christ... how faithful are we? Jesus never promised an easy road for his followers, or that we'd face no real danger. He in fact promised us that people would hate us, persecute us, harm us. But He would give us strength and guidance, would be with us, would hold our hand in our suffering, and that eventually we would be freed to be in God's Presence.

I don't really see where, in Jesus' teachings, He promises to take us out of harm's way in a physical sense. And this has been borne out in the lives of the saints throughout the ages. If it is true that He always physically saves His people from harm, one would have to conclude that His own disciples and all the martyred saints were not "really" His people, and that is an intolerable option. After all, look at the love between Jesus and John the Baptist. And John the Baptist was beheaded.

My take on this is that it isn't important. All this time spent on figuring out the material reality of the tribulation, of trying to chart the events when Jesus told us we would not know the day and that evil people look for signs, all this wasted effort on an event that we would be well prepared for if all we did was focus on doing Christ's work now. I don't need to know when he's coming back, or if he's coming back physically, or have the comfort of believing I'll avoid the suffering of trials here on earth. All I need is that I know Jesus loves me and is already accessible to me through the Spirit in my heart. That should be comfort enough, no matter what my physical trials. No matter how bad it gets- God is with me and suffering is ephemeral. What is important is following Jesus' teachings, and loving God and each other, not working out the impossibly complicated and mysterious material reality of prophecy. The point of prophecy is not to just tell the future. It is to give insight into the mystery of God and to point toward God's will. I read Revelation not asking "when is this happening? how is it materially borne out?" but rather "what does this mean for me today? what insight does it give into serving Christ?"

I have the following written into the cover of my Bible, a quote I found deeply moving and inspiring. It was the prayer of Betty Scott Stam, a missionary who prayed this each morning and eventually on her way to her execution for sharing the Word of God:
"Lord, I give up all my own plans and purposes, all my own desires and hopes, and accept Your will for my life. I give myself, my time, my all, utterly to You to be Yours forever. Fill me and seal me with Your Holy Spirit. Use me as You will, send me where You will, work out Your whole will in my life at any cost, now and forever."

Indeed, I pray that God will use me in service to Himself and to His creation, at any cost. I don't think Jesus promises safety or physical comfort, or deliverance from physical trials. But I do think He promises ultimate security in God, spiritual comfort, and deliverance from our own tendencies toward self-destruction. At any cost, may He use us. If through my suffering and death one day I am in His service, I will consider myself blessed, not abadoned.

 

[Bandit]

God didn't always pull his people out and save them from physical suffering. The disciples and many of the saints were martyred. Missionaries doing his work get killed all the time in third world countries.

I think it is about spiritual protection, not physical protection.

i agree with everything you say, but there is more to it

there is a difference here in what we speak of as laying down our life for Jesus & being subject to the wrath of God.

God will protect us in both ways, that does not mean we wont suffer or be beheaded for Him & that does not mean we shrink form our duty in cowardness.

Mark 8:35: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
yet there is a contrast from the events in the OT & the NT.

the ark then was a physical ark. the ark today is a spiritual ark IN Jesus.

Jesus & the apostles laying down there lives & JTB being beheaded, brought us a turning point into the age of grace. Certainly we will lay down our life, or what we believe in & is proven through the spirit, is not worth believing in.

Jesus said be ye therefore ready also, the son of man cometh at an hour ye think not.

I live like Jesus could come for his church in this very hour & he may not come for another 100 years.
I do believe in the saints being resurrected prior the Great White Throne Judgment & that they most certainly will escape the wrath of God that will be poured upon the earth during tribulation.


We live in the age of grace, but that will end. I want to help build the ark now & be in the ark of safety now & not wait to see if it is truly going to rain, just because it has never rained & just because others choose not to believe.

When we have done what we are supposed to do, God will call us home.
When the earth no longer hears the voice of the bride & the bride groom, the salt of the earth will have been removed. Then desolation & deceit will have taken over man completely.

We are looking at more than one resurrection & it is a big mystery

 

[Faithfulservant]

I agree with Bandit.. God did not appoint us to HIS wrath... theres a difference between that martyrdom at the hands of that which we war with.

I also agree with InLove about the 15 yo pentecostal girl.. God has used many different types of people to prophesize for Him has He not?? Rather than simply dismiss it because it happened far later than the bible was written.. Test the spirits of it.. Does it go against Gods commandments?? Does it reject Christ as Savior and God? Does it teach any doctrine other than Gods? No it does not.. So that little bit of info doesnt change the way I believe. Its not a salvation issue .. Its about being comforted in the face of the wrath of the Almighty God. That is a GOOD thing.

 

[tropheus74]

The US believes those saved (144,000 is mentioned, and one would have to understand gematria and scriptural numerology to read it properly) will all be US citizens (of the white type) as this makes only logical sense seeing that the US is the saviour of Europe and the only civilised country in the world (in their eyes).

Thomas

Hmm. I am a citizen of the US. I don't believe any of the above statement. Nor do I have any knowledge of Gematria. Heck, I don't even think George Bush has any belief in Gematria, though I can't speak for him.

This is the first I've heard of the white US citizens being the only one's saved. None of this is mentioned in the "Left Behind" series, written by Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins, two christian authors who are well respected, as far as I understand, in the American Christian community.

If the rapture concept has its cultural origins in the US, then I, as a member of the US, sincerely apologize.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Hmm. I am a citizen of the US. I don't believe any of the above statement. Nor do I have any knowledge of Gematria. Heck, I don't even think George Bush has any belief in Gematria, though I can't speak for him.

This is the first I've heard of the white US citizens being the only one's saved. None of this is mentioned in the "Left Behind" series, written by Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins, two christian authors who are well respected, as far as I understand, in the American Christian community.

If the rapture concept has its cultural origins in the US, then I, as a member of the US, sincerely apologize.

i dont believe that statement either. i think the 144,000 are some elect jews out of gods chosen people.
Revelation 7:4
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Blazenfattyz!

i dont believe that statement either. i think the 144,000 are some elect jews out of gods chosen people.
Revelation 7:4
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

I think if you look, you will see a minor discrepency in your post. It is one I find very often.

Only 12,000 of the 144,000 are Jews (tribe of Judah). Historically one could possibly include Benjamin and Levi, another 24,000, for a max total of 36,000 Jews. All of the rest are decended of the tribes of Israel, the Northern tribes carried away into captivity long before Jerusalem fell and the Temple was sacked the first time.

We don't really know who the decendents of the remaining tribes are, but there is a lot of talk among scholars that they settled Europe, the "barbaric tribes" that gave Rome fits for so long.

Also notice that the tribe of Dan is missing, and the tribe of Joseph is actually the half-tribe of Epraim, the other half-tribe being Mannasseh.

Personally, I do not see the 144,000 as the be all and end all, the door is open to all who overcome in the end.

My two cents.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

although its not a proven discrepency yet, jew may refer to a bloodline that can be traced back, no matter how much they have mixed. to be safe, one could replace jew with just from a tribe of israel.

 

[pohaikawahine]

in the culture of the Moari reed boats were used for travel and it is said that those who have the knowledge say that it requires one hundred and forty-four bundles to give the craft the lift to carry twelve .... there are also stones that have the power to hold and amplify love a tousand fold, those stones, the Tu Ahu of great knowing were the keys that held the Darkness in check .... they kept the balance .... there were 12 such stones needed to keep harmony throughout the whole planet .... they were the guardians of the Oneness ....

these stories, like those of hawaii nei, have at least four levels of meaning and the deepest level is the sacred .... the ancient knowledge ..... the 144 bundles of reeds needed to carry twelve is related to the 12,000 X 12 tribes .... or the 144,000 .... the 12 stones (in hawaii we would speak of the 12 'alaneo' - the ancient ones) are references to an inner process of moving energy into the brain to open the mind to visions and revelations .... the 144,000 is related to the number of genes in our own DNA ..... in the decoding of the genome we will finally be able to effect many cures for diseases and move to the level of mind, body and spirit ..... so my interpretation of the meaning of the rapture and the 144,000 chosen ones is that each of us is a "chosen one" when we return to the inner process and move that spiralling energy into the brain center .... the 12 pairs of cranial nerves that operate the whole system are the guardians of the Oneness .....

The opening of the seven seals is, in my view, related to the seven energy centers within the body through which this spiralling energy must pass through ..... these are also known in other traditions as the chakras and the kundalini energy .... just my thought to share .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine p.s. the name pohaikawahine comes from a circle of twelve women .... it literally means "a circle of women" ....

 

[BlaznFattyz]

i dont see the 144000 from the tribes of israel as the end all either, because in that multitude in heaven is also the raptured christian church.

 

[mee]

n

Personally, I do not see the 144,000 as the be all and end all, the door is open to all who overcome in the end.

My two cents.

i think you are right ,because the bible tells us that the israel of God ,is now a spiritual israel, not a litral fleshly Israel .
(Romans 2:29) But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God

and when we think about it, the book of revelation is for the most part highly symbolic and not litral, some say that the number of 144,000 is not litral , but after mentioning the number of 144,000 it straight after this says in revelation 7;9
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands....so there seems to be two groups of ones here

 

[truthseeker]

This thread is HOT!!!!!!!
I have never seen anything like this. The plot is thickening and the mystery is unfolding....

 

[InChristAlways]

i agree with everything you say, but there is more to it

there is a difference here in what we speak of as laying down our life for Jesus & being subject to the wrath of God.

God will protect us in both ways, that does not mean we wont suffer or be beheaded for Him & that does not mean we shrink form our duty in cowardness.

Mark 8:35: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
yet there is a contrast from the events in the OT & the NT.

the ark then was a physical ark. the ark today is a spiritual ark IN Jesus.

Great Post and I agree.

Only 12,000 of the 144,000 are Jews (tribe of Judah). Historically one could possibly include Benjamin and Levi, another 24,000, for a max total of 36,000 Jews. All of the rest are decended of the tribes of Israel, the Northern tribes carried away into captivity long before Jerusalem fell and the Temple was sacked the first time.

We don't really know who the decendents of the remaining tribes are, but there is a lot of talk among scholars that they settled Europe, the "barbaric tribes" that gave Rome fits for so long.

Also notice that the tribe of Dan is missing, and the tribe of Joseph is actually the half-tribe of Epraim, the other half-tribe being Mannasseh.

Personally, I do not see the 144,000 as the be all and end all, the door is open to all who overcome in the end.

My two cents.

Aren't the 144000 representative of those "written in the book" in Daniel 12 since revelation is the fulfillment of that chapter in the Bible and the Olivet Discourse?

Something interesting is that Dan and Ephraim replace Levi and Joseph in the Land division of Ezekiel.

Someone once said the order and names of the 12 tribes formed a "prayer" when the names were translated, but I can't remember where that was at. [They are not in order of their births for instance]I will look for it.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My People, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,

[size=+2]Daniel 12:1 `And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do Thy People escape, every one who is found written in the book. 2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches--to abhorrence age-during.

Enoch 91.10 And the righteous will rise from sleep, and wisdom will rise, and will be given to them.
[/size][size=+2]
Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads; [/size]

 

[mee]

Hi WHKeith - Thanks for the reply - long, but worth it.

but whoa! Don't misread me!

I did not mean to imply that rapture theology is an American invention - as you say it is founded in Scripture - but rather that it's taken hold in the US much more so than in Europe, even if it is only a small and noisy percentage.

In Europe I can only think of the JWs who bang on about it.

Maybe,,as you say, it's a result of the freedom of religious expression.

BTW - there's one, if not two 'rapturist' author(s) whose books outsell the NYTimes best-seller lists but, because of their content, they are never listed - reported here on the BBC.

Perhaps the US, being that much younger, is experiencing something that Europe went through generations ago.

Thomas

sorry you are a bit behind the times JW do not believe in the rapture anyone who goes to heaven has to die first
The word "rapture" does not occur in the inspired Scriptures it is not a bible teaching.

Rom. 6:3-5, RS: "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . . For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." (What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew he had died. He was not restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.)

1 Cor. 15:35, 36, 44, RS: "Some one will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body." (So death comes before one receives that spiritual body, does it not?)

 

[iBrian]

The word "rapture" does not occur in the inspired Scriptures it is not a bible teaching.

Try not to post comments like this, mee - it's great to read you using your own words earlier, but statements like the above are likely to throw a thread into doctrinal confrontation, rather than discussion of personal ideas.

 

[InChristAlways]

sorry you are a bit behind the times JW do not believe in the rapture anyone who goes to heaven has to die first
The word "rapture" does not occur in the inspired Scriptures it is not a bible teaching.

Rom. 6:3-5, RS: "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . . For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." (What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew he had died. He was not restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.)

1 Cor. 15:35, 36, 44, RS: "Some one will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body." (So death comes before one receives that spiritual body, does it not?)

He mee. That is how I read scriptures. Do you think we will be seeing live people "rising up to the air" as some endtime books depict on the covers of them?

For example, revelation 6:11 shows their fellow brethren being "killed" up to the 7th trumpet is seems. The same form of the greek word used in Luke 21:24 is also used.
I have just started trying to harmonize the Olivet Discourse/Daniel 12 to revelation and it is a pretty fascinating study.
Steve

Luke 21:24 and they shall be falling by [a] mouth [#4750] of [a] sword, and they shall be being led into captivity into all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be being trodden down by nations/gentiles, till the times/seasons of nations/gentiles be may be being fulfilled/completed [#4137]. plhrwqwsin <4137> (5686)

Revelation 3:2 become watching !, and stand fast ! the rest who were about to be dying, for I have not found thy works fulfilled [#4137] before my God. peplhrwmena <4137> (5772)

Revelation 6:11 and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they should be resting yet further, till may be being fulfilled/competed [#4137] also the bondservants of them and the brethren of them, who are about to be being killed--even as they. plhrwsontai <4137> (5695)

4137. pleroo play-ro'-o from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply. 4134. pleres play'-race from 4130; replete, or covered over; by analogy, complete:--full.
[size=+2]

[/size]