Is Prophecy dead?

The original post was merely a way of evoking discussion. :)

However...playing the numbers game with Daniel isn't a recommended way to prove or disprove anything...other than if you add and subtract numbers together, you end up with other numbers. :)

I've seen more interpretations of Daniel than you can shake a proverbial stick at, all of them hopeful, all of them forced to prove a particular interpretation...and not a single consensus agreement between any of them...other than if you add and subtract numbers you end up with different numbers. :)

And then we have in our membership the scholar of Hebrew and Mathematics, Bob X, who has many written various crushing analyses of the Book of Daniel. :)
 
I said:
The original post was merely a way of evoking discussion. :)

However...playing the numbers game with Daniel isn't a recommended way to prove or disprove anything...other than if you add and subtract numbers together, you end up with other numbers. :)

I've seen more interpretations of Daniel than you can shake a proverbial stick at, all of them hopeful, all of them forced to prove a particular interpretation...and not a single consensus agreement between any of them...other than if you add and subtract numbers you end up with different numbers. :)

And then we have in our membership the scholar of Hebrew and Mathematics, Bob X, who has many written various crushing analyses of the Book of Daniel. :)
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Hi Brian,

I understand what you are saying.

But...

What if the prophetic utterances of all of the past religions have already been fulfilled. But because of the clouds of ignorance, and the veils of human knowledge, we are bereft of the Immortal Face. If we choose to turn away and not investigate this claim, we are not fulfilling our obligation "...unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time..." Hebrews 9:28

If, One comes and states unequivocally that He is the Promised One, He is here to establish God's Kingdom. Do we not owe it to ourselves to investigate the proofs of His life and teachings?

Baha'u'llah spent 40 years in exile and imprisonment for His teachings. It is the best opportunity modern man has ever had to study the background of a religion forming from the beginning. We have actual writings in Baha'u'llah's own hand. We have access to historical documents of the prevailing culture.

I am just stating that if what I'm proposing is in fact true. It is every individuals responsibility to investigate it for themselves. The evidence is out there, and it's abundant.

I just found this site which has quotes addressing numerous topics layed out in a user friendly way. http://bahaitext.info/

Do not take my word for it. Seek and ye shall find.

Loving Greetings, Harmony
 
9Harmony, as this is an interfaith site it remains essential that this place is run from a neutral perspective. In essence my post above was about blunting what could otherwise be seen as dangerously close to proselytising.

We all have our individual paths, and we all make individual choices regarding how we step upon such paths. Those paths remain personal, though.

It is not for CR to be seen to recommend anyone one path, nor endorse any one individual's opinions as spiritual truth. The membership here represents a sphere of perceptions, and I think you will find that everyone has their own informed decisions to make according to the path of their perceptions. :)

In short, it is not in the well-being of CR to allow anything construed as proselytising. Please take note. :)
 
Dear Brian,

I apologize, my enthusiasm may have gotten the best of me.

I do always try to note in my posts that no one should rely on what another person tells them, it is each individual's responsibility to investigate the truth for themselves.

I only post in reply to others questions and if I can give my perspective which may be useful, I will. In response to Ben's post, I was just trying to show that there is other trains of thought in that arena. This being a comparative religions forum, I assumed I was within the bounds of what was acceptable.

Again, I apologize, it is not my intention to offend. I will be more cautious from now on.

Thank you for providing this forum.

Loving Greetings, Harmony






"What "oppression" is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This "oppression" is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error." Kitab-i-Iqan, p 31
 
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Marketplace of religion

I said:
9Harmony, as this is an interfaith site it remains essential that this place is run from a neutral perspective. In essence my post above was about blunting what could otherwise be seen as dangerously close to proselytising.

We all have our individual paths, and we all make individual choices regarding how we step upon such paths. Those paths remain personal, though.

It is not for CR to be seen to recommend anyone one path, nor endorse any one individual's opinions as spiritual truth. The membership here represents a sphere of perceptions, and I think you will find that everyone has their own informed decisions to make according to the path of their perceptions. :)

In short, it is not in the well-being of CR to allow anything construed as proselytising. Please take note. :)
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The way I see it, Comparative Religion forum is like a marketplace where people belonging to various religions display their wares which are their respective religions.

The fact of displaying wares is already some kind of proselytizing, but not proselytizing in the sense of aggressive marketing.

Just like in a market there are buyers and sellers but the same people are prospective buyers and prospective sellers. So a lot of mutual examination of each other's wares is carried on by members of the market.

And it is an inescapable fact that in the process of mutual examination of each other's religions, a poster adherent of one religion can see his religion to be superor or inferior to others, on the basis of different criteria like: how long is the history of the religion, how the religion treats women, what are its attitudes towards war and violence, what is its reward in the afterlife.

Are there posters here who don't belong to any religion? I think I am one. I believe in God, and little else. But I can join anyone in his religion as regards external observances. And what do I hope to achieve here? Several things, but the most important is to see whether there are and how many people are like me here in this forum.

I am not into hard proselytizing, but I think I would like to influence people here so that they will be like me, a believer in God but no member of any religion. In that sense I am into some kind of proselytizing, but hopefully not the hard proselytization disallowed by the administrator.

Susma Rio Sep
 
The Daniel references in my post were authored by Ocean Drop taken from the Contender Ministries forum. My apologies!
 
9Harmony, enthusiasm is easily excused, but sometimes over-enthusiasm can become a little detrimental to a wider community. :)

No harm done - just a little note, that's all. :)
 
Actual proselytizing

What is it to proselytize?

In the Protestant evangelical context, and correct if I am wrong, it means to evangelize, to bring people to accept Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior.

In the Catholic context, it means to convert people to be members of the Roman Catholic Church -- not enough just to become believers in Jesus Christ.

Brian says that proselytizing is not allowed in this forum. I would like to make a distinction between soft proselytizing and hard proselytizing.

What is soft and what is hard. I think Harmony in a way was into hard proselytizing, because of his shrill enthusiasm. How do I know when someone is into shrill enthusiasm? In this forum from the way he writes his posts.

How do I know that a poster is into soft proselytizing? From his writing also, that does not reach the decibel of shrill enthusiasm.

For me it is absolutely all right for posters here to proselytize however shrill they care and want to. But Brian says no. So it's no.

When people proselytize their religion then we really get to know their doctrines and observances in a manner to judge them whether they are deserving of our acceptance.

It's like a product being marketed vigorously; but you have to be a critical buyer, otherwise you might end up buying something not as advertised or not exactly what you want.

My suggestion here is that if anyone feels like proselytizing here, just make sure you don't reach shrill enthusiasm pitch and volume. And I am inclined to suspect that Brian would not mind that kind of proselytization.*

There are people who I think are into proselytization without maybe their knowing it, but not into the shrill enthusiasm type. Read the posts of Vaj and Art, maybe without their knowing it they are into proselytizing. And I am getting to be more and more receptive to their religious ideas and observances. But I don't think I will ever be a label bearing member of Vaj's kind of Buddhism or Art's Baha'i.

Susma Rio Sep

*Brian is the owner and operator of this forum; so everything we do here is on the indulgence of Brian. Yet, I would like to commend Brian for being indulgently tolerant of my posts here, which I think at times are outspoken -- if I may flatter myself. I think Brian would not want to see in posters here a flock of sheep.
 
i believe strongly in *dialogue*. i also believe that dialogue is qualitatively different from proselytisation. now, admittedly, this is an easy stance for me to take, as my own religion prohibits evangelisation, proselytisation, missionarising, or whatever you want to call it. this suits me just fine, because i believe that diversity is a strength and the desire to make other people do things your way is simply a cloak for insecurity. you're not sure you're doing the right thing, but you'll feel a lot better about it if a lot of other people do it as well. it takes courage to be the "awkward squad".

for me, dialogue means that it is important to focus on *dispelling ignorance* - this means being open about what you believe, honest about the challenging/difficult bits and always assuming your own ignorance about the beliefs of others. i would compare this to corporate social responsibility rather than marketing - the benefit is *systemic*, in that the more you know, the less you assume, the less you are frightened of "the other".

this does not, naturally, preclude robust rebuttals of ignorant, uninformed generalisations about things which you know about better than the generaliser. from my perspective, people think they know more about judaism than they generally do. the word "judeo-christian" is largely responsible for this, giving people the idea that judaism is basically christianity minus jesus, which is so far from the truth that it couldn't be seen with a telescope. in fact, judaism is far closer to islam - both have a legal paradigm, both are vulnerable to a tyranny of the "more strictly pious than thou", the love of G!D through the qualities of language, a mainstream (if elitist) mystical tradition and so on. perhaps if more people understood this, they might think of judaism as less of a western/european religion and more of a middle-eastern religion - one that sits squarely between west and east and has conversations in common with both.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
On the issue of dialogue - extremely soon I'm going to re-order the boards so that specific faiths can be addressed much more particularly. There will almost certainly be a board for the discussion of Judaism, and another one for Bahai. That way interested persons can ask questions and invite dialogue on specific issues of Faith in what I hope should be a more free and open channel for dialogue.

Lumping so many Faiths in one board I think has become a little crushing for those who wish to speak more freely, and a little confusing for those who would like to see specific issues of specific Faiths addressed. Probably will do it within the next seven days. :)
 
Dear Friends,

As a Baha'i I am forbidden from proselytizing. So I am feeling rather distraught that it seems to some that that is what I was doing.
I guess it depends on your definition of proselytizing. I've learned the Baha'i definition is ... "Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion." (Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities, 7.8)

Which I don't think I was doing, at least it was not my intent. But I understand I must respect the forum host's definition. Posting is a privilege, not a right. And I want to be deserving of that privilege. I am relatively new to online forums and the last thing I want to do is come across negatively to those reading my posts.

Susma, thankyou for coming to my defense. I greatly appreciate your perspective. Do you think the shrillness of my posts was due to my own words or the quotes I posted? (It's kinda funny, because if you knew me personally, shrill is not a word someone would use to describe me, but I guess written words are different) BTW: FYI - I am a female :)

In my own defense I initially posted in response to Brian's question..."Is prophecy dead?" Giving a Baha'i perspective. And in response to Ben's posts on his interpretation of Daniel, I again posted a Baha'i perspective. I only wanted to represent the train of thought that if prophecy has been fulfilled, it may seem to be dead. And extended an invitation to investigate Baha'u'llah's claim (I think that is where the idea of proselytizing comes into play), i maybe naively thought people would accept the invitation if interested. And in this world of online communication individuals have the option of skipping past what they aren't interested in. But I understand that I have to take into consideration my audience.

I thank you all for helping to educate me in proper and acceptable forum etticut. I appreciate your kind words and I promise to take them to heart.

Brian, it would be so wonderful to have a separate Baha'i board here. Thank you so much for considering it. And I agree it would be beneficial in the long run in being able to avoid circumstances such as I find myself in now.

Thanks again!

Loving Greetings, Harmony
 
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Namaste harmony,


thank you for your posts.

i do have a question for you, however, concerning this bit that you wrote:

"The Baha'i Faith makes the assertion that prophecies of all of the worlds great religions have been fulfilled with the coming of the Bab (the Gate) and Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God)."

now... does this mean to indicate all prophecies of the world religions has been fulfilled or just some of them?

if it means all of them, can you explain how you reconcile the prophecy concerning Maitreya and the loss of the Dharma with this teaching?

i've spoken with several of the Baha'i members on this forum regarding the Baha'i understanding of Buddha and his teachings. we'll have to agree to disagree on this aspect of the whole thing.. which is why i'm interested in the narrow disucssion of the prophecy fulfillment.
 
Perhaps that question is one for the new forum, Vaj? Maybe I should look to split this thread into distinct new threads there if you get any replies. :)


9Harmony -

I personally found some of Susma's words towards you a little harsh and don't at all believe you were "shrill". Susma Rio Sep, please be more mindful of the feelings of others when you comment directly on them, please.

As for proselytising - the usual reference in British English doesn't relate to seeking to use aggression or threats, merely the intent to convert. :)

I have some honest questions of my own about Bahai - and other faiths represented here - so I will personally find it more liberating to create Faith-specific boards where Faith-specific questions and issues can far more openly be addressed.
 
Regrets

I said:
Perhaps that question is one for the new forum, Vaj? Maybe I should look to split this thread into distinct new threads there if you get any replies. :)


9Harmony -

I personally found some of Susma's words towards you a little harsh and don't at all believe you were "shrill". Susma Rio Sep, please be more mindful of the feelings of others when you comment directly on them, please.

As for proselytising - the usual reference in British English doesn't relate to seeking to use aggression or threats, merely the intent to convert. :)

I have some honest questions of my own about Bahai - and other faiths represented here - so I will personally find it more liberating to create Faith-specific boards where Faith-specific questions and issues can far more openly be addressed.
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Thanks, Brian, for the reminder. May I just say something about my special talent?

Namely, I should be writing a book on "How to make enemies and antagonize people". Hehehe.

Again, thanks, Brian. And I am working on your advisory, to not sound harsh to fellow posters here.

Susma Rio Sep
 
To Harmony with love

Harmony writes:

Susma, thankyou for coming to my defense. I greatly appreciate your perspective. Do you think the shrillness of my posts was due to my own words or the quotes I posted? (It's kinda funny, because if you knew me personally, shrill is not a word someone would use to describe me, but I guess written words are different) BTW: FYI - I am a female :)
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Dear good Harmony, please don't take my vocabulary very literally. I shouldn't have used that word 'shrill'. Let me change that word to 'warm'.

Glad to know that you are female. My wife, my daughter, my sisters, my mother, my aunts, my grandmothers, they are all women. I love all women. Why? Because they are the mother of mankind. Live there any man or human not born of woman and raised by women?

Susma Rio Sep
 
Thanks Vaj,

Unfortunately I am not as well versed in Buddhism as I would like to be, but while we wait for Brian to set up the new boards, I will research this topic and post my response over there.

Brian,

I am looking forward to answering any questions you may have. Let me know when you get it set up.
As for Susma, he didn't hurt my feelings. I have gained some insights from his perception of my posts and I strive to become a better person in all areas of my life including in the online arena. I try to learn something from every experience and I have learned alot here.
As for proselytizing = trying to convert. In my limited view I am incapable of converting anyone. I was simply trying to offer information that people may be unaware of and inviting them to investigate for themselves. I hope that didn't come across as trying to convert. I'm learning how to be more balanced in my approach of what I hope will be considered as simply sharing in a loving way, I realize I have a long way to go to achieve that goal.

Loving Greetings, Harmony
 
Susma Rio Sep said:
Harmony writes:
Dear good Harmony, please don't take my vocabulary very literally. I shouldn't have used that word 'shrill'. Let me change that word to 'warm'.
Susma Rio Sep
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Dear Susma,

How kind! but I want to assure you that nothing you said hurt my feelings. I actually learned alot from your input. It is helpful to realize how others perceive me through my posts and now I have some insights into what I need to do better. I want nothing more than to be a good representative of my Faith and if I am perceived as not, that is only a reflection on me.

Have a great day!

Loving Greetings, Harmony

P.S. Actually the fact that you used the word 'shrill' is interesting to me, that's why I asked if you were referring to my words or the quotes. Because Baha'u'llah used that word numerous times when He referred to His Revelation. For example... "At this moment the shrill voice of the Most Sublime Pen hath been raised" Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p 92 and "Hear ye not the shrill voice of My Most Exalted Pen?" Kitab-i-Aqdas, p 34
Interesting, no?
 
Bananas is spot on..........Israel was never even taken away from the Jews by G+d only man. It is was and will be the promised land to the seed of Abraham, as G+d cannot break his promises and I believe only once had changed His mind on a matter, could somebody put me on the right path on this latter matter.

Wasn't he 'persuaded' against destroying Jonah's destination city Nineveh?

Is there any other time the G+d changed his mind, impossible though it sounds, because as He knows the beginnning from the end, it must be impossible to change His mind because He knows the right outcome of His action?

Or do all things work for good for those that love G+d, meaning that we have to power to turn bad things that we follow, if we truly repent, to good, like when David sinned with Bathsheba but was still beloved by G+d

Just going back to Bananas pro Israel stance, you Christians out there are crazy if you really think you are now the chosen people, and that G+ds covenant with the Hebrews ended some time some place, no no no, on this He cannot change his mind, a promise is a promise, can a rainbow be broken?

Help!!!!!
 
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Is Prophecy Dead?

Well let me just say that if a wonderfully sane and upright man or woman, who was in the Holy Spirit like the prophets of old were to say:
"I went out unto the wilderness and for forty days I ate not. And the voice of God came unto me and bade me tell my people..."

Of course in order to follow the command given, were the message more urgent than a book-publisher's time frame, the prophet would need to break into a TV studio or radio station to "tell my people."

He/she would be locked up, or at the very least a kind social worker might lead him/her to a "Behavioral-health center," where drugs would be pumped into the prophet in order to help the prophet "recover" from his mental derangement.

So my answer to the question above is, yes, in the Western culture, it's pretty much dead. Because we ourselves try to kill it wherever we find it. :)
 
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