Hi Wil -
I don't know if the terms are correct. It is apparent that I am deemed a liberal Christian if not heretical, blasphemous one by many.
OK
But I think, and I am biased that my view of Christianity is often times has more personal requirements than most.
Not sure what you mean here?
We have discussed the Jeffersonian Gospels and the omition of virgin birth, resurection, diety of Jesus, etc...
I can accept that and have it not hurt my belief system or biblical thought at all. Even if it was proved, shown due to historical/archeological evidence that 95% of the biblical historical data were wrong, misinterpretted or even made up....wouldn't affect that I see value in the words that are attributed to Jesus.
It would effect the way we think about the person ... for example, Christ said "I will build this temple..." and we associate that with the Resurrection. If, however, the Resurrection was 'disproved' - then his statement becomes meaningless. If 95% of the data were wrong, then what is there left, but sophistry and lies?
For the Christian believes in the Person of Christ, or rather the Act as well as the Word. It's the actions of Christ that carry the weight, as it is how and who we are as people that carry the spiritual charisms - not what we say, but what we do ... "this people honours me with their lips, but their hearts ... " (Matthew 15:8)
And I think this is why you face accusation. Discard Christ's actions, then his words are words to be numbered among other words, and as many will point out, many have said much the same thing ... the further you pursue this line, the more 'immaterial' Christ becomes ... and once you disassociate the words from the man, then you can interpret the words any way you like.
It is said often that you can't pick and choose which scripture to accept and which to interpret metaphysically rather than historically.... but it seems even the literalists do.
I agree. Fundamentalist Christians seem steeped in the vengence of the Old Testmant and ignore the message of Christ almost entirely. There are extremes of every degree. 'Born again' seem to think they'be been issued with a one-way ticket beforehand ... that's human nature ... in my Hermeticist days, I remember 'the man' observing 'these people drive like they've already made it' (I was driving a '68 5.3lt V8 Plymouth Baracuda at the time - and eventually blew up the gearbox doing standing starts)
Again I think of all the wars that Christians have fought in, all the atrocities that have been committed by churches and Christians (I'm not singling us out, we are not alone, but we do supposedly believe in the new
testament).
I would provisionally agree. Christ's words and actions speak of a completely different social order, which too few aspire to - it's simply too revolutionary. Provisionally only in the sense that every ill in history seems to be the fault of Christianity, as if there was nothing else to human nature but man's belief. Also, a fair amount of propaganda - The Crusades, The Inquistition and the Burning of Witches are a case in point, but this is stuff for another discussion.
And then I think of love your enemy, offer him your coat, judge not less ye, love your neighbor....all these have to be disregarded in order to pick up arms against someone. Sure you can find other texts, if you don't have sword sell your belongings and get one...but again...in my view anytime I see a hateful G-d, or vengeful Jesus...tis time to look at the scripture metaphysically and divine the good and love out of the works...
Agreed.
I think don't commit adultery means don't dilute your principles...and not committing murder includes murdering enthusiasm and creativity...in a lot of ways I read the bible to hold me to a higher standard...that is why I don't feel very liberal.
And I applaud that. I believe the Perpetual Virginity of the Immaculata is a symbol of her fidelity and integrity to her mission, but that is why I believe she is Perpetually Virgin and intacta - like everything about Christianity, it is the spiritual become physical reality.
I would like to highlight the above paragraph - if someone wishes to deny it, then let that person give the metaphysical reasoning why the higher cannot manifest itself in the lower - this, after all - is the crux of the question.
Do I believe Jesus is my lord and saviour and died for my sins? Yes, but not in a literal sense.
Physical and spiritual, see? Are you saying we are 'spiritually' saved, but not 'literally' saved? Then we are saved, but not in a literal sense ... which means in reality we are not saved? The condition of human nature is not abstract, it is a reality - thousands die of it daily - if the crucifixion seems unseemly, or unnecessary, then so does the death of 30,000 children a day in Africa, and they die for precisely the same reason that Christ died, because we don't care and we don't want to be bothered.
If not in the literal sense, then it is an insult to humanity ... because we die, literally.
(the question is: why do we lack the moral will to stop what we know to be wrong?)
I believe that by learning from the way and nature of Jesus by seeing his path to becoming the Christ...
Here's the rub - I would say that such an attitude, or such an interpretation, is the fruit of the relativism that affects the educated west, a world in which the subjective opinion in king? I might go so far as to say that Christians are told "Your rewligion can't mean that, cos mine doesn't..."
Wil - the following paragraph reads like I'm shouting, truly, I'm not, but I am asking rhetorically ... and I am smiling ... but ...
Who is this Christ? If not Jesus himself, a man, then who? If not a man, then what? He is not Jesus, then what is it that we are chasing? Some notion of universal consciousness? Ultimate Being? Some nebulous quality common to everyone someone happens to think worthy? The lowest common denominator of 'Agreed Good Stuff'?
I ask because once you start down the path of relativising, then there is no stopping. God becomes like the card in a three card trick, always there when it's shown to you, never there when you turn the card ...
But I am created man, and it is as a man that I shall find my way to God, and it is as a man that God looks for me.
I would rather be a good man who knew nothing, than a bad man who was conscious of the universe - but then, that's nothing original.
by not worshipping him, but attempting to follow in loving footsteps...I can do everything he did and more...if I am able to walk the walk...and I believe when he said ye are G-ds....we are the creator and the created...masters of our destiny, brothers and sisters, children of G-d, the trinity does not exist as we are all one...
Surely to follow in his loving footsteps requires that we lay down our lives for another, without counting the cost, and wanting nothing in return ... "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends"
John 15:13
Unless, of course, Jesus then said, "not literally, of course, I mean metaphorically, esoterically ... but not really."
Thomas
