Knowledge of Good and Evil

Kindest Regards, bobx!

Thank you for your post!

I am not one of those who believes we have two different natures, an "animal" nature and a "spiritual" nature. There is no such thing as "disembodied spirit", but on the other hand there is no such thing as "dumb matter" either. Our spirituality is part of our animal nature.
I am still mulling over your response.

On the one hand, I can see "spirit" as natural, innate and integral. On the other, I still see something that separates humans from other animals. What caused the development of conscious thought in humans? What environmental stimulus could lead humans, and possibly other creatures, to rational thought? Why did "nature" select those homonids that became human to develop these things, and not others in the ape family as well (or other creatures, for that matter)? What is it about being able to consider future consequence, and why have not other creatures followed suit? And how does this apply to the development of morality?
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, DIKL!

How much of morality, "good and evil," is subjective, and how much is objective?

Hi juantoo3,

it depends on what you mean by subjective and objective. If
subjective = Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world
objective = Based on observable phenomena

then, IMO, morality is entirely subjective. It's a concept we make up.

How do you regard morality?

Regards,
DIKL
 
Deep questions, all. But briefly: we have limited information-processing ability, and the logically unavoidable Godel's-Theorem problem that any finite logical system that deals with an infinite number of possible cases must be subject to error. We cannot fully perceive the extent of our interdependence, and thus even if we fully perceived the pain we bring to others (which we also fail to) we would not really recognize the importance of that or give it the weight it deserves. That is, I take a "gnostic" view of morality, that what is right is what we would do if we fully appreciated what we are really doing: Hitler could not have wished the Holocaust if he felt every one of those millions of horrible deaths.

What sets us apart from the animals is the level at which we process information. Many of the more intelligent mammals have some facility with abstraction, sorting concrete objects into categories, but we are able to do meta-abstraction, sorting abstractions in turn into categories: "It must have taken long ages for man to realize that a couple of days, a pair of eyes, and a brace of pheasants were all instances of the number Two, and even longer to realize that Two, Three, and Four were all instances of Number" (quoting the memory, I don't remember the guy's name but it is not my original).

Evolutionarily, it was very difficult to get here, as evolution must build step-by-step using what is already available, passing only through stages each of which must work in its own terms. We have a multi-layered mind reflecting the inheritances from the early stages: my private term for the "three brains" is the Snake, the Dog, and the Monkey.
The Snake can only model physical causality among objects. The Dog can model the minds of others and forecast others' behavior. The Monkey works in abstract concepts.
Faced with lightning and thunder, the Snake thinks "Loud noise, burnt smell; probably hurts; should get away". The Dog thinks "Thor must be a very angry creature to be so destructive all the time". The Monkey thinks "Electrical discharges move large quantities of energy along a path of least resistance".
The Snake works on principles of pleasure/pain. The Snake's morality is that "good" is what is rewarded, and "bad" what is punished.
The Dog works on principles of love/hate. The Dog's morality is that "good" is what the group-leader wants, and "bad" is what leads to social ostracism.
The Monkey works on principles of beauty/chaos. The Monkey's morality is that "good" is what makes sense in terms of general principles applied across the board, and "bad" is what could not be so understood.
 
Kindest Regards, DIKL!

Thank you for your post!

it depends on what you mean by subjective and objective. If
subjective = Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world
objective = Based on observable phenomena
This is pretty close to what I was getting at. I see subjective as how each culture arrives at somewhat different conclusions. Like how many cultures view theft as immoral, yet in other cultures theft is a rite of passage.

By contrast, an objective view would be a morality "etched in stone." Something all cultures inherently recognize. Love your neighbor as self is about as close as I can come.

then, IMO, morality is entirely subjective. It's a concept we make up.
For the most part I am inclined to agree. So if morality is "entirely subjective," then it would be impossible and pointless to try to achieve a concensus view (a 'good-enough' agreement on our definition of evil), because none can be reached when asking across multiple cultural boundaries.

Not to mention, depending on philosophical inclination, "evil" may well be a sliding scale. What is evil today because of circumstances, may not be evil tomorrow under a different set of circumstances.

A side note, if by "we" you mean humans ("{morality is} a concept we make up"), then how does one explain morality in herding and pack animals?

How do you regard morality?
Good question. I am still learning.

A part of me wants to believe there is an underlying basis for morality, something inherent to what I view as creation, something I feel is attached to spirit, and as Luna has pointed out in the past is tied to love. These things are not provable in the scientific sense, but are proven well enough in my own personal subjective view.

But that view is still growing, still changing. I like the way Thomas put it, ask me tomorrow and you will probably get a different answer. :)
 
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Kindest Regards, bobx!

Thank you for your thoughtful post!
bob x said:
we have limited information-processing ability, and the logically unavoidable Godel's-Theorem problem that any finite logical system that deals with an infinite number of possible cases must be subject to error. We cannot fully perceive the extent of our interdependence, and thus even if we fully perceived the pain we bring to others (which we also fail to) we would not really recognize the importance of that or give it the weight it deserves.
So (if I am reading this correctly), even though we have come a long way evolutionarily, there is no way we can solve this puzzle? There can be no "universal" morality because of our limited view?

what is right is what we would do if we fully appreciated what we are really doing
I like this.

What sets us apart from the animals is the level at which we process information.
I agree.

We have a multi-layered mind reflecting the inheritances from the early stages: my private term for the "three brains" is the Snake, the Dog, and the Monkey.
The Snake can only model physical causality among objects. The Dog can model the minds of others and forecast others' behavior. The Monkey works in abstract concepts.
I see this, although by different terms. The reptilian brain, as I recall, deals with survival; heart rate, breathing, etc. The sub- (or un-) conscious mind
dealing with instinct, and the conscious mind in humans dealing with thought.

The Snake works on principles of pleasure/pain. The Snake's morality is that "good" is what is rewarded, and "bad" what is punished.
The Dog works on principles of love/hate. The Dog's morality is that "good" is what the group-leader wants, and "bad" is what leads to social ostracism.
The Monkey works on principles of beauty/chaos. The Monkey's morality is that "good" is what makes sense in terms of general principles applied across the board, and "bad" is what could not be so understood.
I hesitiate here, I do not wish to offend. I see anthropomorphing. Humans can and have, depending on culture and time, used all of these as cultural norms and philosophies within recorded history. The Greeks had Epicurian Hedonism (principles of pleasure/pain). Pleasing the group seems to me a driving concern in many cultures, not least Christianity in the Middle Ages. Beauty / chaos as I recall has its roots in Greece as well, but is seeing a resurgence in modern times, particularly in science. I suppose it is possible, if these are all a part of human make-up (I do question beauty/chaos), that we might be subject to any one of them (or more) at a given point in time.

Well, I have company that just arrived, so I must go for now. Thank you again for a very insightful post! :) :)
 
I see this, although by different terms. The reptilian brain, as I recall, deals with survival; heart rate, breathing, etc. The sub- (or un-) conscious mind dealing with instinct, and the conscious mind in humans dealing with thought.
This is a different way of parsing the brain, into its major constituent suborgans. The medulla oblongata or "brainstem" is what controls heart rate, breathing, and other "autonomic" functions. The cerebellum is what stores "programs" of sequential co-ordinated muscle movements that we do not have to think about: for example, we think about "walking" across the room and not "raise left foot, move it forward, lean a little bit so I don't fall over, now put it down" as a baby first learning it has to do; or more extremely, I may get in the car and suddenly "find myself" at work, although I meant to go to the grocery store, because I was not thinking about what I was doing and the "program" kicked in. In humans, the cerebellum starts out fairly blank: a horse by contrast knows how to stand and walk (at least a little) from birth; these inborn programs are what are called the "instinctual" behaviors.

The cerebrum is the more complex information-processing organ; sometimes the cerebrum and cerebellum are grouped together as the "forebrain" as opposed to the "hindbrain" (medulla, and its immediate attachments) and the "midbrain". The midbrain suborgans are numerous, thalamus, hypothalamus, amygdala etc. and rather difficult to characterize in simple terms because of the multiple connections and ways of functioning. For example the hypothalamus acts directly on the pituitary, but the hypothalamus is electrical while the pituitary is strictly chemical, issuing "control hormones" that direct the release of other hormones by glands all over the body, so the pituitary is not considered "part of the brain" although it is surrounded by the brain. The pineal is very hard to classify: it acts chemically to set the "body clock" by rising and falling levels of melatonin (not to be confused with melanin, the brown skin-prigment) over the course of the perceived day-night cycle, which it resets based on electrical signals from the visual cortex in the cerebrum (in many reptiles, the pineal is on the surface with its own visual receptors, a "third eye" but one that perceives only light/dark without image-processing); and the pineal also acts chemically on the electrical systems through the "neurotransmitter" chemicals (serotonin, dopamine, etc.) that govern the rate of propagation and suppression of various kinds of electrical signals.

The threefold distinction among hindbrain, midbrain, and forebrain is not what I meant by "Snake/Doggy/Monkey". The reptilian brain does include "midbrain" and "forebrain" organs although the cerebrum is not very large (it processes the pressure senses, feeling/hearing, and also has a visual cortex; the olfactory senses, smell/taste, are processed in a separate vomeronasal organ, vestigial in us); to what extent the Komod dragon is "conscious" I could not say (I suspect that, actually, the question is itself ill-formed). But the Komodo dragon does not feel "sorry" for the dragon hatchlings it eats because it has no emotional circuitry at all, and does not have the ability to model the hatchlings as "other dragons like me", perceiving them only as "tasty snacks". What the mammalian brain adds, besides an enlarged cerebrum integrating all the senses, is a "limbic" network with all kinds of mysterious feedbacks between the forebrain and midbrain organs; somehow this governs emotion (even if I was expert in neurology, I could not explain because the experts themselves is just starting to grope). The crucial functioning here is the ability to construct an internal model of another mind and imagine how the other will respond.

What the "Monkey" adds is a great expansion of the cerebral cortex, with novel connectivity in "Broca's region" and "Wernicke's region", whose functions are even more difficult to unravel than the limbic system, but damage to those areas result in aphasia (loss of language ability) or lesser linguistic malfunctions like dyslexia. Abstraction, and meta-abstraction, are the functionalities here.

I suppose it is possible, if these are all a part of human make-up (I do question beauty/chaos), that we might be subject to any one of them (or more) at a given point in time.
We are subject to all of them, at all points of time, to various degrees. The later-acquired sections of the mind do not kick in until later in life: we are all born as "Snakes", incapable of perceiving anybody beyond ourselves, or putting importance on anything beyond immediate pleasure and pain. We become socialized into "Doggies" who go along with what the pack tells us to do. Eventually, usually in our teens, our "Monkey" becomes dissatisfied with thinking only at that level.

"Kohlberg" is a name you should Google; he had a theory of "stages of moral development" (at its most basic, with three stages based "reward/punishment", "social approval/disapproval", "universal principles"; divided into six or more substages in his more refined papers) which has given rise to a huge body of literature, especially as it relates to the classifying of the differing ethical systems we find in various cultures and religions. Fundamentalist Christianity is a classic "Doggy" system: the pack-leader tells you what to do; the "Snake" is to be kept chained up, and the "Monkey" is blindfolded. Arguments between atheists and fundamentalists often end up talking past each other: the fundamentalist accuses the atheist of wanting to loose the Snake, when the atheist really wants to open the Monkey's eyes.
 
Awesome post, bobx!

Thank you for the reminders and the pointers. I knew I should have paid a little better attention in that one lecture in Psych 101... :)
 
Kindest Regards, bobx!

Just wanted to take a moment to let you know I did look up Kohlberg and his work. I am going through the material now. Interesting stuff!

I also noticed how certain names kept popping back up in relation to this subject, not least Jung, Kant, and even Glenn Morton. So much on this subject seems to tie together across different lines of research.
 
seems to me that the "monkey" is not all that advanced if it considers things that don't fit in with "universal" principles to be "chaotic" and therefore not "beautiful". sounds very utilitarian to me. also very utopian. kind of like communism. amazingly enough, we figured this one out a long time ago. just look at the midrash on the story of nimrod, a "mighty hunter before G!D"....

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
The Monkey reaction "I can't make sense of it, so I don't like it" is almost as deeply ingrained in us as the Doggy "They aren't part of our pack, so I don't like them". The ability to truly accept that large parts of the universe are just beyond our comprehension is rare.

What do you mean by "the" midrash about Nimrod? I could Google "Nimrod" and come up with ten thousand stories but I assume you have a particular one in mind.
 
Kindest Regards!

Just a quick bump to let others know I have not forgotten this thread. I looked into Kohlberg and find his stuff interesting but not quite fulfilling. Seems there is some parallel to Maslow's hierarchy. And while the general position of Kohlberg's stages is that once one reaches the next level there is no going back, the acknowledged research indicates otherwise. I also find it curious that political campaigns seem to focus on the lowest common denominators. I suppose bumper sticker slogans and ten second sound bites are not adequate for stage four and five morality and reasoning.

I did stumble on another researcher who has grabbed my attention; William James. Seems he is the founder of psychology, predating even Freud. And he had a great deal to say, positively, about religion. I find a kindred spirit in his work, and were I to believe in "rebirth" I would have cause to wonder. Seems he is the first in academia to divide religion into "personal" and "institutional," his terms, over a hundred years before I thought of the terms in trying to distinguish what I was attempting to say. I can't wait to get further into his material!
 
Very interesting, but misguided? I'll be back shortly. It doesn't take too much to peek my interest... overwhelmed with work at this moment.
HELLO BRIAN!
Victor G.
 
In scanning here, the posts seem to go helter-skelter into many areas that could take up pages on their own. The title intrigued me as our study group has has just gone into this subject in depth, with surprising discoveries. But allow me to digress.

To this mind, ETHICS is a set of values agreed upon by a given society through which its members may act in an acceptable manner; within that community. The ETHICAL codex usually varies within areas of social strata. MORALITY is merely an ETHICAL code in action. I personally see no point in concerning self with a complex issue here.

Another statement I read concerned Jesus' healing power. If one scrutinizes the scriptures it becomes obvious, that in every case, the healing was dependant on the faith of the recipient, or their 'sponsor.' Where Jesus was unable to heal, as in his own 'country', it was due to a lack of faith upon those in residence who knew him personally. OH, and by the way, an act; a thought, even a whispered imagining in one's mind, can be evil of itself, of its very nature, without ever interacting with another.

Unfortunately, I have not been privy to the very old thread refered to but if one must begin an issue of, the Knowledge of Good and Evil, I would have been prone, as a believer, to start at the beginning. Would this community be willing to look at the creation of man and the ancient story of Adam in a new light? For if religious myth, cult legend, have anything substanial to offer, we might concern ourselves with what I have come to consider a very biased view in the religious mind. (Being a Christian, I include Christianity as well!)

Consider: God created Adam and set him in the Garden of Eden. The Creator gave man reign over that creation and all that was in it, save one tree, the tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Obviously, all that Adam was given as food must be considered as metaphoric, since to 'eat' of the fruits of the garden was a gathering of knowledge for man, the gaining of wisdom. The tree of Life allows us to consider that this creation, Adam, in partaking of that 'food' was immortal. But the one fruit he was denied is the great clue to the truth behind this tale.

God may well have created Adam as a complete, physical creature, but Adam was an infant, a blank canvas! Consider, he had no life experience; had never made a logical decision; had not gained intellect save to complete the most basic tasks, and had NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG, GOOD AND EVIL! How do we know this? Because he was forbidden to 'eat' of that fruit! He did not know that he was naked. Adam was a complete innocent, until after he had partaken of that knowledge.

Theophilus, the 6th Bishop of the church at Antioch in circa 177 A.D. asked an enormously inportanht question and I put it into our language because it has stirred my own imagination. "If God did not want Adam to eat of the fruit of that tree, why the hell did he put it there in the first place?"

Reason drives that great thinker, and this lesser soul, to consider that Adam was to have gained knowledge to reach perfection, and at some point in time, when he had become strong enough, he would have been permitted to eat of the forbidden fruit, but ONLY when he was wise enough to control it. Unfortunately, his curiosity caused him to seek knowledge that was so potent, it controlled him. God's admonition then becomes, not a threat, but a statment of fact! 'If you eat of that fruit you will surely die.' The power of the wisdom that Man sought controlled him, it was far before the appointed time for him to open the 'Pandoras' Box' that filled him with the total knowledge of, Good and Evil, In overcoming him, in controlling him, man learned of, and became subject to, 'death.'

Without going further into the lesson we struggled with I would ask:
(1) What does this do to the Christian doctrine of original sin? How could there be sin when in fact, Adam, original man, had no concept of sin or of right and wrong?
(2)Can we parallel this cult myth to original man and his introduction into the material world, regardless of the manner of his coming into being? Surely he came as an infant, a blank page that was to be written upon by 'life experience'? Even if he came into existence through the waters of great unfathomed seas, he would bring with him instincts developed by the lowest form of life known to man, and we must consider the very first, the absolute in 'new' life could have had no ethical code, no knowledge of moral behaviour.

Then, if there be no source of consciousness beyond man, all things are the creation of man; good and evil are concepts of a developing, human mind that are relevant to our species, and ours alone.

Thoughts?
Victor G.
 
Kindest Regards, Victor!

What an incredibly thoughtful response!
Victor said:
In scanning here, the posts seem to go helter-skelter into many areas that could take up pages on their own. The title intrigued me as our study group has has just gone into this subject in depth, with surprising discoveries.
Originally the thread was begun in an effort to be as inclusive as possible, not only of other faiths but of science and atheism as well. This probably explains why the disparate sources and points of view.

To this mind, ETHICS is a set of values agreed upon by a given society through which its members may act in an acceptable manner; within that community. The ETHICAL codex usually varies within areas of social strata. MORALITY is merely an ETHICAL code in action. I personally see no point in concerning self with a complex issue here.
This is the reverse of how I understand the terms. Be that as it may, now that I understand how you use the terms, I will attempt to conform so we are speaking of the same thing.

Another statement I read concerned Jesus' healing power. If one scrutinizes the scriptures it becomes obvious, that in every case, the healing was dependant on the faith of the recipient, or their 'sponsor.' Where Jesus was unable to heal, as in his own 'country', it was due to a lack of faith upon those in residence who knew him personally. OH, and by the way, an act; a thought, even a whispered imagining in one's mind, can be evil of itself, of its very nature, without ever interacting with another.
I am not sure of the direct connection between healing and morality, although I agree with your assessment. As for evil being even just a thought, I suppose that conforms with a statement I made on the other thread, about viewing good and evil much like the old cartoon caricatures of an angel and a devil on either shoulder whispering in our ears. Evil must have a source and beginning, (I would think the same of "goodness"). Do we contrive evil thoughts purely of our own, without outside influence?

Unfortunately, I have not been privy to the very old thread refered to but if one must begin an issue of, the Knowledge of Good and Evil, I would have been prone, as a believer, to start at the beginning. Would this community be willing to look at the creation of man and the ancient story of Adam in a new light? For if religious myth, cult legend, have anything substanial to offer, we might concern ourselves with what I have come to consider a very biased view in the religious mind. (Being a Christian, I include Christianity as well!)
The old thread is easy enough to find (I thought I had included a link...). It is in the philosophy section, titled "Morality in Evolution." Actually, across a number of threads I have started there has been the unwritten allusion to the Genesis story. So it is well someone finally brought it to light.

Consider: God created Adam and set him in the Garden of Eden. The Creator gave man reign over that creation and all that was in it, save one tree, the tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Obviously, all that Adam was given as food must be considered as metaphoric, since to 'eat' of the fruits of the garden was a gathering of knowledge for man, the gaining of wisdom. The tree of Life allows us to consider that this creation, Adam, in partaking of that 'food' was immortal. But the one fruit he was denied is the great clue to the truth behind this tale.
Of course, one argument presented the idea that Adam and Eden are metaphoric, symbology to represent an idea of the founding of consciousness and morality, not to mention agriculture. That there was a conscious awakening in the human mind and spirit there can be little doubt, but can we say with certainty that Adam was a real historical figure, and that he and Eve were the absolute first to have their minds awakened?

God may well have created Adam as a complete, physical creature, but Adam was an infant, a blank canvas! Consider, he had no life experience; had never made a logical decision; had not gained intellect save to complete the most basic tasks, and had NO KNOWLEDGE OF RIGHT AND WRONG, GOOD AND EVIL! How do we know this? Because he was forbidden to 'eat' of that fruit! He did not know that he was naked. Adam was a complete innocent, until after he had partaken of that knowledge.
What can we say of Neolithic humanity? Or before? Where in the scheme of things does the story of Adam reside? If Adam was created only 6 thousand years ago, how do we explain Neolithic humanity (to which, I might add, we have evidence to show we are genetically related)? If Adam was before, where do we place him? We have tools and artifacts dated to 100 thousand years and more. It is believed humans had fire much longer than that. What does this have to do with morality?, probably not much by itself. But then, how does one explain careful burials, with clothing and implements? How does one explain healing arts, and suffering a malformed one to exist within the group structure and treating them with respect and dignity, as evidenced by a few burials dating around 25-30 thousand years or so ago (+ or -, I am going by memory here). How does one explain the magnificent cave paintings around Europe and in China? Surely, for these things there must have been consciousness, and more importantly to this discussion morality, in humans at the least 25 thousand years ago.

Theophilus, the 6th Bishop of the church at Antioch in circa 177 A.D. asked an enormously inportanht question and I put it into our language because it has stirred my own imagination. "If God did not want Adam to eat of the fruit of that tree, why the hell did he put it there in the first place?"
LOL, I like this!

Reason drives that great thinker, and this lesser soul, to consider that Adam was to have gained knowledge to reach perfection, and at some point in time, when he had become strong enough, he would have been permitted to eat of the forbidden fruit, but ONLY when he was wise enough to control it. Unfortunately, his curiosity caused him to seek knowledge that was so potent, it controlled him. God's admonition then becomes, not a threat, but a statment of fact! 'If you eat of that fruit you will surely die.' The power of the wisdom that Man sought controlled him, it was far before the appointed time for him to open the 'Pandoras' Box' that filled him with the total knowledge of, Good and Evil, In overcoming him, in controlling him, man learned of, and became subject to, 'death.'
If Adam is metaphorical, and represents humanity in some total form, have we reached this threshold yet? I am guessing not. Would things have been different, had Adam not made the mistake of learning evil with good? I don't know...

Without going further into the lesson we struggled with I would ask:
(1) What does this do to the Christian doctrine of original sin? How could there be sin when in fact, Adam, original man, had no concept of sin or of right and wrong?
I suppose it comes back to your point about how even a thought can be evil. Of course, who planted the thought in Adam? And who planted the thought in her?

(2)Can we parallel this cult myth to original man and his introduction into the material world, regardless of the manner of his coming into being? Surely he came as an infant, a blank page that was to be written upon by 'life experience'? Even if he came into existence through the waters of great unfathomed seas, he would bring with him instincts developed by the lowest form of life known to man, and we must consider the very first, the absolute in 'new' life could have had no ethical code, no knowledge of moral behaviour.
Absolutely. Yet nature does exhibit a form of morality among herding and pack animals. Humans are not the only social animals, and not the only with morality.

Then, if there be no source of consciousness beyond man, all things are the creation of man; good and evil are concepts of a developing, human mind that are relevant to our species, and ours alone.
I agree with the basic principle, not necessarily the conclusion. Particularly if evil (and by extension good) can be interjected from outside. And from a different angle, not if some other segments of nature also understand, in their own way, good from evil.

Thoughts?
I most humbly submit mine. Do you have comments regarding my thoughts?

Juan
 
Juan:
Entertaining discussion and I will reply. I was just passing by but must read your comments without distraction. You certainly deserve a studied response as you raise good points along the way.

Warmest regards;
Victor G
 
Juan:
Concerning Ethics and Morality, you noted:
This is the reverse of how I understand the terms. Be that as it may, now that I understand how you use the terms, I will attempt to conform so we are speaking of the same thing.

Compromise is the beginning of understanding but hopes are that we will not need to digress on this issue.” On Jesus’ healing, I picked that thought up from Post #11 (please reference for content)

The wrikter noted:
Absolutely! But he knew their karma. Why could Jesus not heal some people, and why - even when he did heal others - did he insist that it was God working through him (or words to that effect)?

Concerning Evil thoughts you noted:
Evil must have a source and beginning, (I would think the same of "goodness"). Do we contrive evil thoughts purely of our own, without outside influence?

Well, we have something of an enigma! If, as I stated before, there is no consciousness beyond man, and man came from the very depths of the most ancient sea, and was the very FIRST of all life, he had no concept of good and evil, right and wrong, regardless of his pre-human form. That would have to come from life experience i.e., that which caused that life-form pain or injury as opposed to comfort or satisfaction. I would suggest (without any formal proof) that a continuation of life would become a primal ‘instinct’ and later the ‘survival of the species.’ (Of the fittest?) Later development of intellectual and instinctive abilities would come from interrelationships within a growing species, and then from within an organized community.

IF, we accept the existence of a conscious entity beyond ourselves (God, if you will) we are still faced with the question of how man adopted an awareness of right and wrong, good and evil. My concept of Genesis leaves the doctrine of Original Sin, in grave doubt. The Serpent fed on Eve’s innocence, not her sinfulness! Adam gave in to curiosity, not the knowledge that he was doing something wrong. When they lost their innocence, when niavete vanished and they realized their naked state, the first concept of ‘wrong’ entered the picture. The concept was not planted by God or by the Serpent, but by a bitter life experience. When they were banished from Paradise, Adam and Eve entered the world of mankind and the adaptation into a material life experience that created the Law, crime and punishment, etc.

And here, my friend, we come to face a truth whether one is a ‘believer’ or a non-believer, and everything in-between. The world corrupts; it corrupts us physically, spiritually, and eventually, intellectually.

We need no ‘angel’ or ‘demon’ on either shoulder because we respond to our environment, to the actions of mankind and of nature. We are conditioned by all that comes from our ancient ancestry to our modern frustrations and joys. We are conditioned by so many factors that it becomes incomprehensible and almost beyond understanding, but that which has become our innate knowledge of good and evil lies within us and, in the end, we are barely in control.

You noted:
That there was a conscious awakening in the human mind and spirit there can be little doubt, but can we say with certainty that Adam was a real historical figure, and that he and Eve were the absolute first to have their minds awakened?

I do not believe that we must ascertain the historical reality of first man. Who or what he might have been is inconsequential. The FACT that a first, an original, came into existence is proven by the fact that you and I exist! And I am not of a fundamentalist mind but a believer who has no problem in accepting the fact that our universe must be billions of eons old. On the other hand, I delight in the knowledge that Hubble allows us to SEE that the Creation is an ongoing event in the myriad of Star Nurseries that until now have been hidden from us.

Genesis is, at best, an anthropomorphic analogy of man coming into the world, and for the age in which it originated, is a unique and ambitious effort.

You noted:
If Adam is metaphorical, and represents humanity in some total form, have we reached this threshold yet? I am guessing not. Would things have been different, had Adam not made the mistake of learning evil with good? I don't know...

Now this statement causes emotion… If Adam existed as an immortal in Paradise (the Garden) then I would suppose that the ultimate purpose would have been as Genesis states, “Be fruitful and multiply!” Gaining knowledge, wisdom, Adam would eventually have reached a state of perfection (whatever grand scheme that would entail) and he would have become as a God, knowing all that God knows.

In Christianity, doctrine tells us that, having fallen from grace, Adam became a mortal being subject to all the consequences of that existence. There was no alternative but for the Christ (Messiah) to become human, take on all the frailties of human existence and reach a state of perfection here on this earth. The reward for believers is ‘salvation’, reaching the state of perfection originally intended for Adam and eternal life in the, Kingdom.

Whatever avenue one chooses, we must all deal with ‘real’ life within the many structures of human existence on this planet. My question would be: will man be able to attain that state universally, or merely individually.
Finally, as Ethics and Morality vary from social order to social order, they would certainly vary from species to species, and from life-form to life-form, including that which we would consider, Alien!

Religions give us basic codes for moral action, and they often vary as do Judaic, Christian, and Islamic Law though they come from the same base. The basic foundations of our legal systems stem from ‘Theos nomos’, God’s Law! Agios nomos, man’s law, usually generates from those principles and adapts by necessity. But no one yet has accomplished a ‘perfect’ Law in heart, mind or spirit.

Why? I believe it is because we have become so diverse in our nature as individuals.
Victor G.
 
juantoo3 said:
Knowledge of Good and Evil
Kindest Regards, all!
It seems to me that what we deem morality in modern society is a far cry from what may be deemed natural morality. Nature is a beautiful creation, balanced and in harmony. Yet, humans have long outgrown natural morality in most cultures, excepting it seems to me such indigenous cultures as the Native Americans, Aboriginal Australians and African Bushmen. Perhaps I would be remiss if I overlooked some Pagan traditions, so I am fishing for some insight in this direction.
I look forward to a meaningful and enlightening discussion. Kindest Regards to all! 
Knowledge of good and evil has been beneficial to man and that’s why man has made so much progress in science and technology and other fields. It is no more a forbidden tree or its fruit, man has tasted it and it is tasty.
Morals ,to me, are the natural faculties of man molded into actions, done with free will, suited to the time and occasion and of course according to the dictates of God as per the Revealed Scriptures.
I quote here for benefit of all the opening four verses of The Holy Quran: Chapter 25: named Al-Furqan, meaning the faculty of discerning Good from Evil, bestowed on man by God. Quote:
[25:1] “In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
[25:2] Blessed is He who has sent down Al-Furqan to His servant, that he may be a Warner to all the worlds -
[25:3] He to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And He has taken unto Himself no son, and has no partner in the Kingdom, and He has created everything, and has determined its proper measure. [25:4] Yet they have taken beside Him gods, who create nothing but are themselves created, and who have no power to harm or benefit themselves, nor have they any power over death or life or Resurrection”. Unquote
Thanks
 
Inhumility:
I would like to know where God has allowed man back into the Garden to taste of this fruit. You said:
"Knowledge of good and evil has been beneficial to man and that’s why man has made so much progress in science and technology and other fields. It is no more a forbidden tree or its fruit, man has tasted it and it is tasty."

"...He has created everything, and has determined its proper measure. [25:4] Yet they have taken beside Him gods, who create nothing but are themselves created, and who have no power to harm or benefit themselves, nor have they any power over death or life or Resurrection”.

Seems to me this is a condemnation of man's self-acclaimed 'wisdom'; who has; "taken beside Him gods, who create nothing but are themselves created, and who have no power to harm or benefit themselves, nor have they any power over death or life or Resurrection”.

Allah is saying that these man-made gods provide nothing for man or for themselves. That man is guilty of fashioning their own gods just as they did at the foot of the mountain. But the question here is if, indeed, we know good from evil, we still do not have the power to control either! That wisdom, the fruit of that tree, has yet to be digested.

If I am wrong then you need tell the million plus who have died from the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki that they are not victims, they are the fruit of our great scientific knowledge. You need to tell those innocent victims at Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, that they are not victims, they are the recipients of our marvelous technology. We need to tell those whose lives have been shattered by modern drug advances that they are not victims but shareholders in our modern technologically 'good' corporate society.

You see, when we learn to use things for 'good' without the 'evil' being a necessary by-product, THEN we will have inherited true wisdom. We will be able to not only determine 'good' from 'evil' but use the one without the other. And please, do not tell me that those lives butchered or lost are the price we MUST pay for scientific advancement.

Scioentific advancement does not entail wisdom, nor does it rarely consider the 'good' and 'evil' involved in its movement forward. It deals with money and with power and we all pay the price for that. I leave you with the 'wisdom of God's prophet (PBUH)

The Holy Qu'ran: Surah 17:14; "Every person's doings have We fastened firmly to his neck; and on the Day of Judgment We shall place before him a book which he will find wide open, and he will be told: Read thy record, thou art sufficient as a reckoner against thyself this day."

Victor G
 
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