Hi Cyberpi, Thank you for your reply. I guess we are on quite different wavelengths (again
). I'll try to address some of your points as best I can.
OK.
I was trying to show that Love requires judgment, and that judgment requires Love... just as the body requires the brain and the brain requires the body.
You seem to be using the word judgement the way I might say assessment, or analysis. When I say judgement I mean a judgement about that person, not the act. Assessment: Sal is a prostitute, which is lillegal and dangerous as a profession. Judgement: Sal is a bad person and prostitution is a sin.
And, you will Judge me. In order to hear and have patience, a person internally judges. In order to forgive, a person has judged first already.
I can't even begin to understand anything you say unless I 'judge' you in such a manner. All of our language, all of our interpersonal relationships are judgement the way you seem to be using the word. I have a feeling we are arguing over semantics.
I agree that it is good to teach by example which is known as not being a hypocrite. But if a parent can raise children with tape across their mouth and without using sign language then I would like to see it. Helen Keller comes to mind. I submit that parenting requires some form of communication and behind every word is judgment.
Of course I use words to communicate with my child, and of course I will try to point out right from wrong, or beneficial from harmful, socially acceptable from non-acceptable. However, I would suggest that as parents we use way too many words and way too many judgements and criticisms with our children, and I am quite guilty of this myself. When kids are little that is the best time to let them learn from their mistakes, rather than telling them what to do and trying to rescue them from every bad consequence. In a perfect world though its very possible that our children could learn by observing us without us every having to criticize or discipline.
I have two ears, two eyes, and a tongue within my control... so when am I NOT directly responsible for the use of one or the other? Is the student made responsible for what I say as a teacher? Is the judge made responsible for what I hear when I am judged? Whether speaking or hearing, I judge. I submit that whether I am a student, a teacher, being judged, or judging others, that I am the one responsible for the use of my brain, voice, eyes, and ears.
I think I addressed this above.
I can not support law by people, Faith in people, or democracy for anyone who is opposed to judgment.
Oh, well you are quite correct that the law brings judgement. I'm not an anarchist (I seem to be saying that a lot lately); I agree that the functioning of our society depends upon laws and our more or less agreement to obedience to them. This thread however (let me go back and check), yes this thread is about morality and the knowledge of good and evil. Victor said that there is no perfect (univeral ) law, but I disagree. Love is that perfect "law." Love transcends morality and good and evil. It's a perfect law, a divine law, but we souls living in a fallen, imperfect world can never fully follow this law (which, IMO, is where grace comes in). So, we need to muddle along the best we can with our man-made laws for keeping order and peace, all the while realizing that while these laws are necessary, they are also indicative that we are not living fully in the KOG. As individuals, when we participate in love (forgiveness, healing, feeding, welcoming home), we are living out that divine law.
The person opposed to judging has either ascribed themselves to judgement by somebody else... either Victor's Theology of Law (hopefully God), some form of dictatorship by the scholarly or powerful, or anarchy.
I believe that this kind of thinking is dangerous and also the reason we have so much relgious strife in the world.
Voting in a democracy requires that a person judge not only what they think is right from wrong, good from evil, for a law over their neighbor, but also in a representative democracy it requires judging between people. Literally. At best I would say that a person must always have the right to abstain from judging, or from judgment. If a person is ignorant of a referendum, then they should abstain. I suggest that abstaining is not an insult to democracy; however, it is my goal to suggest and to promote that individuals should Judge. Not just with words, but given a powerful vote in law and diluted only by the number of people who are willing to judge and vote.
I said above that we need to judge to function as a society.
Upon having a Law, I submit that judgment is required when someone breaks it. I am certainly for forgiving a person that disobeys the law... after the person is minimally judged with words, and if he repents. So embrace the felon, the bank robber, the rapist, or the child molestor with all of the Love that you have. I strongly recommend it. Listen to him, forgive him, feed him, make him cookies... but I advise after he is willing to confess. Otherwise nothing has been taught, nothing has been learned because there was no judgment. Forgiveness requires judgment. Otherwise, there was nothing to forgive.
I disagree, but I still think we can judge the action and enforce laws to keep people and property 'safe,' (which is, BTW, an illusion) without judging the person. Aside: the fact that we need so many laws to keep the peace is yet another symptom that we are widely out of whack. The thing about grace/forgiveness, the unconditional love we are called to give to each other is that it is never something to be earned, but always to be freely given. I'm not capable of it, probably won't be except in glimmers during this life, nevertheless it is what we are called to be and do.
Think about the prodigal son...his father gave him his inheritace freely when he asked and forgave him before he even left to squander his inheritiance. That is love, grace, forgivness, the kind of love our LORD shows to us.
Think also about Jesus on the cross. Father, forgive them. They know not what they do.
peace
