Serious doubts about the ethics of personal salvation

[taijasi]

After these last few posts, my 2 cents would be:

Christ's greatest gifts to us were his Life, and his Love. Both the beauty, and the mystery of these gifts, is that in giving them, Christ actually lost neither. Even though his closest of followers all abandoned him (save one), God did not. And even though his death was intended to deny him of life, it could not and did not. God does not give us life, that it may simply be taken away.

Upon the real significance of these two Mysteries ... rests the heart, soul, and future of Christianity (imho), as also the further development of our own faith, and relationship with God.

In Love and Light,

Andreas Bar-abbâ

 

[Thomas]

Andrew -

In my personal, humble and Catholic opinion I am bound to say that has to be the shortest, the most succinct and the most profoundly moving post you have ever made.

It is one I shall not forget in a hurry, and I doubt if at all.

Thomas.

 

[taijasi]

Andrew -

In my personal, humble and Catholic opinion I am bound to say that has to be the shortest, the most succinct and the most profoundly moving post you have ever made.

It is one I shall not forget in a hurry, and I doubt if at all.

Thomas.

ROFL ... Thomas, you've caused me to burst out laughing, almost to tears, and merrily so. Thank you for that!

andrew

 

[Cage]

Thank you for your thoughtful, and moving posts everyone...

I do believe in Jesus, and I wish to follow him. He never asked me to worship, but he did ask me to 'follow'. Does this mean follow his teachings, and the example he set, or does it mean something else?

If he askes me to follow his teachings, and 'example', then I must also accept my cross, (As he did) and die as he died. Couldn't this be the will of God; that I do as Jesus did, and die in my sins (for him)?

Matthew 16:21-23

21. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

It is man who savours the idea of being exempt from what must happen. (Justice) We are all sinners, and the penalty for sin is death. I think Jesus may have been showing us that death is unavoidable for mankind, but his ressurection gives hope that I might also be raised from the dead, if I follow him faithfully, and learn the meaning of Love.

Consider this:

John 15:12-14

12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

He layed down his life for his friends/followers. In my mind, how can you Love a person, and still let them suffer for what you have done. (If only in Spirit) Perhaps, it is my obligation to return the favor, and die for Jesus, and "Love him just as 'he' Loved me"?

It may seem to you that I'm twisting the meaning behind it all, but this is just how my mind works, and believe me, I struggle with it!

Love is not always about emotion, it is often about action as well. Would my actions, and intention to die for Jesus, just as he died for me, not be considered worthy in the eyes of God? In the end, it's really all about self sacrifice, isn't it?

I am more than happy to give my life to Jesus' cause, (What I believe it to be) but giving away my soul for my own salvation is quite another story:

Matthew 16:26-27

26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

If I'm true to myself, and if I'm true to the message of Love that Jesus Lived, and 'follow', then my works would surely be honorable, right?

I think I found out how to find Love, also: I re-read the parable of the talents, and viewed the talents as representing Love, and it showed me that in order to love, you must express/invest love in others, and then Love will multiply.

I do have a measure of Love within me. It's time for me to invest it in others...

Actions speak louder than words, even more so, they speak louder than emotion alone...

Then again, I am really twisted up inside at the moment...

Faith w/o works is dead, or so says James,

~cage~

 

[Triade1024]

Hi everyone,


I am new to the whole posting thing but I felt it was time that I put my two scents worth in. I have been following this thread and it is very interesting to me. Some things make alot of sense and others don't. The point I really wanted to make was that salvation is a gift. Ok so this point has already been stated but I don't think people are realizing what it says. A gift is given because somebody wants to give it. Salvation is the ultimate gift. No act or deed or works or anything can earn it. In that it isn't up to us to decide if we deserve it or if it should be offered to us or if we even want it. It is only up to us to accept it and give our gifts back, whatever they may be. Salvation is given to us out of love, pure love. Period end of story Christ loves us and His gift to us is salvation. If we strive to be honest and true and continually learn then we will want to give back in love. The fact that you want to be a good friend and have a loving relationship with Christ is enough Cage. Don't beat yourself up because you don't feel worthy of Christ's gift or that He shouldn't have to fight your fights for you or pay your consequences or what have you because frankly it isn't for you to decide what Christ chooses to give you or do for you. It is His gift to you, just love Him for it.

Dymphna

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I don't think I have any "sins" that I haven't made sufficient ammends for. I've lived a pretty good life, and though I've made mistakes, I haven't harmed anyone intentionally. I don't understand this blood guilt thing. I'm not guilty of anything. I don't think I need an avatar to save me. But I think that if Jesus' philosophy of love were really put into practice it WOULD save the world. I guess that's an oddball position.

Chris

 

[Cage]

I don't think I have any "sins" that I haven't made sufficient ammends for. I've lived a pretty good life, and though I've made mistakes, I haven't harmed anyone intentionally. I don't understand this blood guilt thing. I'm not guilty of anything. I don't think I need an avatar to save me. But I think that if Jesus' philosophy of love were really put into practice it WOULD save the world. I guess that's an oddball position.

Chris

As in 'humanity' as a whole; so that we (Mankind) might survive 'ourselves'? I've had thoughts just like yours, and I still do.

Jesus' message/philosophy of Love breaks many boundaries, and I think it is one needed in this world...

It is all too obvious that every man, woman, and child will die. The Bible clearly states that the penalty for sin is death, and no man can live w/o having sinned.

Do you think that maybe when Jesus spoke of 'eternal' life, he was speaking of the world of man; (Not the individual) that perhaps his message/philosophy of Love might be enough, if embraced, to allow mankind to survive as a species?

Do you think we should be seeking the Kindom of God on earth, instead of hoping to find it after death, or am I missing your point altogether?

Interesting,

~Cage~

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hey Cage, how's it goin'?

I think we should be seeking the Kingdom within ourselves, and using that knowlege to take righteous dominion of the earth. That would include responsible ecology, promoting equality and civil rights and economic equity, plus a whole bunch of other things I'm sure you can imagine. I don't know what happens after we croak, but my goal is to be a righteous person and help make the Kingdom physical through right action. I believe this is a major theme of the Old Testament, and it's also one of the things I really like about Jewish thought.

Chris

 

[Cage]

Hey Cage, how's it goin'?

I think we should be seeking the Kingdom within ourselves, and using that knowlege to take righteous dominion of the earth. That would include responsible ecology, promoting equality and civil rights and economic equity, plus a whole bunch of other things I'm sure you can imagine. I don't know what happens after we croak, but my goal is to be a righteous person and help make the Kingdom physical through right action. I believe this is a major theme of the Old Testament, and it's also one of the things I really like about Jewish thought.

Chris

I think I may agree with you, Chris? Are you suggesting that we make change through righteous action, to bring the 'Kindom' into the physical realm, (Eventually) by embracing our gift of dominion?

I found this in Luke:

Luke 17:20-21

20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Cage]

Hi everyone,


I am new to the whole posting thing but I felt it was time that I put my two scents worth in. I have been following this thread and it is very interesting to me. Some things make alot of sense and others don't. The point I really wanted to make was that salvation is a gift. Ok so this point has already been stated but I don't think people are realizing what it says. A gift is given because somebody wants to give it. Salvation is the ultimate gift. No act or deed or works or anything can earn it. In that it isn't up to us to decide if we deserve it or if it should be offered to us or if we even want it. It is only up to us to accept it and give our gifts back, whatever they may be. Salvation is given to us out of love, pure love. Period end of story Christ loves us and His gift to us is salvation. If we strive to be honest and true and continually learn then we will want to give back in love. The fact that you want to be a good friend and have a loving relationship with Christ is enough Cage. Don't beat yourself up because you don't feel worthy of Christ's gift or that He shouldn't have to fight your fights for you or pay your consequences or what have you because frankly it isn't for you to decide what Christ chooses to give you or do for you. It is His gift to you, just love Him for it.

Dymphna

Are you sure it is enough?

Most Christians will tell you that you 'must' accept Jesus as your Lord and 'Savior' in order to be saved.

I only want to Love him, follow him, and be a friend to him. Many will disagree with your sentiments, Triade.

 

[Quahom1]

As in 'humanity' as a whole; so that we (Mankind) might survive 'ourselves'? I've had thoughts just like yours, and I still do.

Jesus' message/philosophy of Love breaks many boundaries, and I think it is one needed in this world...

It is all too obvious that every man, woman, and child will die. The Bible clearly states that the penalty for sin is death, and no man can live w/o having sinned.

Do you think that maybe when Jesus spoke of 'eternal' life, he was speaking of the world of man; (Not the individual) that perhaps his message/philosophy of Love might be enough, if embraced, to allow mankind to survive as a species?

Do you think we should be seeking the Kindom of God on earth, instead of hoping to find it after death, or am I missing your point altogether?

Interesting,

~Cage~

Well, if you talk with "Mee" (another member), he would say both...in fact he would state that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand on earth right now.

That might be good conversation for you Cage.

v/r

Q

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

He's throwin' ya to the Jehovah's Cage!

I think I may agree with you, Chris? Are you suggesting that we make change through righteous action, to bring the 'Kindom' into the physical realm, (Eventually) by embracing our gift of dominion?

I think that the Kingdom exists in potential until righteous action begins to manifest it. Check this out:

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. Matthew 13:31,32 (KJV)

And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. Luke 17:6 (KJV)

A midrash (Genesis Rabbah 10) urges us to recognize that every blade of grass has an angel standing over it, encouraging it: “Grow, Grow!” Until we grasp this dimension of order, while we refuse to dive deeper into the subtlety of each situation (in life), we will continue to be caught up in the paradox and, hence, paralyzed. R. Nilton Bonder.

The Kingdom is brought into being through the righteous and just actions of people who understand that it exists already in potential, but, like the tiny mustard seed, must be planted and tended in order to materialize. “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” The Kingdom already exists within us, but the responsibility of humans is to convert that potential into concrete reality through righteous action.

So, how to live a righteous life? In Buddhist terms: how to be mindful. We always get stuck thinking that righteous action requires us to step out of our ordinary life mode and do something altruistic and extreme, but the advantage of the Jewish perspective, it seems to me, is that the kabbalistic concept of redeeming the world (tikkun olam) involves a commitment to justice in the realm of our ordinary, everyday actions. I’m a carpenter, so the major portion of my tikkun actions involve me making every effort to put forth the best end product of my work that I can. I redeem the world by doing good, honest work. This is far more important than me giving a dollar to every panhandler that I meet. Even more important than my work is my relationship with my family. My actions as the father and husband figure of my family unit are, in effect, me acting out the role of God in his creative function. Please don’t read an endorsement of patriarchal status quo-ism into that statement because it also implies that my wife is a Goddess, and indeed she is!

Through our everyday actions in the real world we have the opportunity to redeem the world, but it’s important not to get tied up in the ultra rationalist pursuit of dogmatic perfection. The nature of art is that it celebrates the sacred nature of the ordinary. Imperfection is an essential element of art, and part of the reason why computers and robots will never supercede humans. The trick is to capture the motion of life. The key to great photography, for example is in understanding how to pose subjects so that they appear un-posed. Here again perfection is undesirable because it is static. What is desirable is dynamic stability, and the only way to achieve that is to embrace the seeming futility of a never ending struggle to impose order on chaos. That is the challenge of “dominion”, which is God's original command to his human creation:

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen 1:28 (KJV)

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

He's throwin' ya to the Jehovah's Cage!...

No, my friend. I think that Cage is looking for an here and now possibility. And hence I believe "Mee's" concept of Christianity might be able to present him with some answers, that might satisfy (at least in part), Cage's questions.

None of us are satisfied with one particular set of answers (right China?). But we are all searching for the Christ in one way or another. Maybe, "Mee's" concept of Christ is what Cage could deal with. But it won't work, if we poke fun at anyone. And "Mee" believes as strongly as I do (and apparently as Cage does), in Christ.

Hence the invitation for Cage to ask "Mee" about his thoughts...

v/r

Quahom

 

[Dondi]

Thank you for your thoughtful, and moving posts everyone...

I do believe in Jesus, and I wish to follow him. He never asked me to worship, but he did ask me to 'follow'. Does this mean follow his teachings, and the example he set, or does it mean something else?

If he askes me to follow his teachings, and 'example', then I must also accept my cross, (As he did) and die as he died. Couldn't this be the will of God; that I do as Jesus did, and die in my sins (for him)?

I don't believe that "burying our cross" means we have to die. On the contrary, bearing our cross means living for God in the same manner of Jesus.

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it." Matthew 16:24-25

Losing one's life does not mean the act of physical death, but rather dying to one's ego and living for Him. He took care of our sins, we just need to take care of our life and live according to His Word.

It is man who savours the idea of being exempt from what must happen. (Justice) We are all sinners, and the penalty for sin is death. I think Jesus may have been showing us that death is unavoidable for mankind, but his ressurection gives hope that I might also be raised from the dead, if I follow him faithfully, and learn the meaning of Love.

He layed down his life for his friends/followers. In my mind, how can you Love a person, and still let them suffer for what you have done. (If only in Spirit) Perhaps, it is my obligation to return the favor, and die for Jesus, and "Love him just as 'he' Loved me"?

It may seem to you that I'm twisting the meaning behind it all, but this is just how my mind works, and believe me, I struggle with it!

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." - John 15:14

The ultimate expression of Love is to give up your life for your friends. Jesus did this literally. But what would your physical dying do for those you love? What benefit? Rather wouldn't it be better to live you life for your friends? That is you have been given the gift of Life to be used of God in a mighty way. Our endeavor should be to find out how God would want us to use this gift of Life for the benefit of others. Following the Commands of Jesus shows how we can love one another.

Love is not always about emotion, it is often about action as well. Would my actions, and intention to die for Jesus, just as he died for me, not be considered worthy in the eyes of God? In the end, it's really all about self sacrifice, isn't it?

Personally, if I believed my death would bring salvation to others around me, I would gladly give it up. But how much more effective would it be to be God's hands, feet, and mouth to bless those who lack and have need of the Lord's grace while here on earth. God has given us a certain number of days. He wants us to continue "redeeming the time, because the days are evil." (Ephesians 5:16).

If I'm true to myself, and if I'm true to the message of Love that Jesus Lived, and 'follow', then my works would surely be honorable, right?

I think I found out how to find Love, also: I re-read the parable of the talents, and viewed the talents as representing Love, and it showed me that in order to love, you must express/invest love in others, and then Love will multiply.

I do have a measure of Love within me. It's time for me to invest it in others...

Actions speak louder than words, even more so, they speak louder than emotion alone...

See, here you are on the right track. Actions do speak louder that words. We need to be "doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:22)

"And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men." - Mark 1:17

See how many you can catch!

Then again, I am really twisted up inside at the moment...

Faith w/o works is dead, or so says James,

~cage~

You may feel you are twisted up, but I believe God has great things in store for you and that He is preparoing your heart to perform that for which He created for you to do. Keep seeking Him out!

 

[Cage]

Well, if you talk with "Mee" (another member), he would say both...in fact he would state that the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand on earth right now.

That might be good conversation for you Cage.

v/r

Q

Thanks, Quahom1...

 

[Cage]

He's throwin' ya to the Jehovah's Cage!


The Kingdom is brought into being through the righteous and just actions of people who understand that it exists already in potential, but, like the tiny mustard seed, must be planted and tended in order to materialize. “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” The Kingdom already exists within us, but the responsibility of humans is to convert that potential into concrete reality through righteous action.

So, how to live a righteous life? In Buddhist terms: how to be mindful. We always get stuck thinking that righteous action requires us to step out of our ordinary life mode and do something altruistic and extreme, but the advantage of the Jewish perspective, it seems to me, is that the kabbalistic concept of redeeming the world (tikkun olam) involves a commitment to justice in the realm of our ordinary, everyday actions. I’m a carpenter, so the major portion of my tikkun actions involve me making every effort to put forth the best end product of my work that I can. I redeem the world by doing good, honest work. This is far more important than me giving a dollar to every panhandler that I meet. Even more important than my work is my relationship with my family. My actions as the father and husband figure of my family unit are, in effect, me acting out the role of God in his creative function. Please don’t read an endorsement of patriarchal status quo-ism into that statement because it also implies that my wife is a Goddess, and indeed she is!

Through our everyday actions in the real world we have the opportunity to redeem the world, but it’s important not to get tied up in the ultra rationalist pursuit of dogmatic perfection. The nature of art is that it celebrates the sacred nature of the ordinary. Imperfection is an essential element of art, and part of the reason why computers and robots will never supercede humans. The trick is to capture the motion of life. The key to great photography, for example is in understanding how to pose subjects so that they appear un-posed. Here again perfection is undesirable because it is static. What is desirable is dynamic stability, and the only way to achieve that is to embrace the seeming futility of a never ending struggle to impose order on chaos. That is the challenge of “dominion”, which is God's original command to his human creation:



Chris

We are mostly on the same page, but as with any belief system, people are sure to disagree on certain points. My only disagreement would be that we do need to go beyond our average, everyday lives, and actually touch those not in our inner circles. To actually make effort to awaken the 'kingdom' in others through our example, and through the measure of Love each of us have been given.

I think we should all embrace our 'gift' of dominion, and seek to find within ourselves the Kingdom, and then make effort to make it a reality on earth (again).

I wrote this (My idea of a poem) while thinking about creation, and our rightful place in it. I thought you might enjoy the sentiment, so I decided to post it.

It's called:

"Eden" (Paradise lost and found)

Creations wonder birthed
of a virginal mass
within this darkened void
life was born.

Mother earth
is but the hand of God
creating a paradise
even unto this day...

Existing to nurture mankind

The earth, the waters
the air, and life.
Dominion granted
over all these things.

A king of sorts
we’re living
within this
mighty realm...

Yes, in Eden we surly dwell.


Anyway, I Love creation, and I Love God for giving me/us a chance to make it what I 'know' it can be. All it takes is an appreciation, effort, and alot of Love to bring Eden back in sight. (At least in my opinion) In my eyes, God gave it to us (Mankind), and it is ultimately our choice as to what we make of it...

I will never see it in my lifetime, but perhaps this is what is meant by this verse?

John 4:37
37. And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth

Just a thought I had,

~Cage~

 

[Cage]

I don't believe that "burying our cross" means we have to die. On the contrary, bearing our cross means living for God in the same manner of Jesus.

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it." Matthew 16:24-25

Losing one's life does not mean the act of physical death, but rather dying to one's ego and living for Him. He took care of our sins, we just need to take care of our life and live according to His Word.

I see your point, and I'm likely to agree, (In part) only we will die. (Saved, or not) My point is that, I should be true to the cause, and deny myself, (Be selfless) and do my best to follow the example Jesus set for me. This includes accepting death, responsibility, and living for anothers gain.

Jesus was self-less, unselfish, and accepted his fathers will, (to die in the end), but also live for others. His entire legacy was about Loving mankind, and his father. He, imo, showed on the cross what is expected of me. To be a responsible, Loving person, and to live my life for the gain of others, but also die in sin, as he did. If I die, after living my life as Jesus lived his, then I in essence, will be dying for him. My sins are my own, and that is a concept I must find peace in...

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." - John 15:14

The ultimate expression of Love is to give up your life for your friends. Jesus did this literally. But what would your physical dying do for those you love? What benefit? Rather wouldn't it be better to live you life for your friends? That is you have been given the gift of Life to be used of God in a mighty way. Our endeavor should be to find out how God would want us to use this gift of Life for the benefit of others. Following the Commands of Jesus shows how we can love one another.

This, I completely agree with, only I would go even further, and say to live your life for the benefit of all, not just friends. This is what it means to Love your nieghbor, imo.

Personally, if I believed my death would bring salvation to others around me, I would gladly give it up. But how much more effective would it be to be God's hands, feet, and mouth to bless those who lack and have need of the Lord's grace while here on earth. God has given us a certain number of days. He wants us to continue "redeeming the time, because the days are evil." (Ephesians 5:16).

That depends on what you view the Lord's 'Grace' to be... I can see giving myself, so that others will reap where I have sown. Meaning, die to myself, and live to make this earth, creation, a better place for future generations, through the example Jesus set for me. (Love, and responsibility)

To Love even those who will come after me, and sacrifice my life (In essence) so that they may experience God's kingdom on earth. This may very well be what Jesus what trying to do, and show us...that we, through his example might help his cause. (To save the world) I don't quite know how I feel about personal salvation, but if Jesus 'was' resserected, it gives me a spark of hope that by living my life as he did, for God, and for mankind, I might also be accepted, and inherit the kingdom to come. (On earth)

See, here you are on the right track. Actions do speak louder that words. We need to be "doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:22)

"And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men." - Mark 1:17

See how many you can catch!




You may feel you are twisted up, but I believe God has great things in store for you and that He is preparoing your heart to perform that for which He created for you to do. Keep seeking Him out!

I certainly will, and thank you!

 

[Dondi]

Jesus was self-less, unselfish, and accepted his fathers will, (to die in the end), but also live for others. His entire legacy was about Loving mankind, and his father. He, imo, showed on the cross what is expected of me. To be a responsible, Loving person, and to live my life for the gain of others, but also die in sin, as he did. If I die, after living my life as Jesus lived his, then I in essence, will be dying for him. My sins are my own, and that is a concept I must find peace in...

Paul said,

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." - Galatians 2:16-20

According to Paul, we already died with Him, and now we live in Him. "It is Finished" the work has been done. All that is left is to live unto Christ. Don't frustrate the grace of God. Don't try to add to it.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." - Isaiah 64:6

You see, nothing that we can do can equal what Christ has done. Your death will not atone for your sins.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" - Titus 3:5-6

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:' - I Peter 3:18

The basic difference between your death and Christ's death is that He rose again, by His own power, because He was sinless. When you die, you will not rise again of your own power, because you are not sinless. You need Christ's resurrecting power to do it.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?' - John 11:25-26

 

[Triade1024]

Are you sure it is enough?

Most Christians will tell you that you 'must' accept Jesus as your Lord and 'Savior' in order to be saved.

I only want to Love him, follow him, and be a friend to him. Many will disagree with your sentiments, Triade.

I guess my question to you Cage would be how can you truely love someone if you don't accept them?

 

[Cage]

The basic difference between your death and Christ's death is that He rose again, by His own power, because He was sinless. When you die, you will not rise again of your own power, because you are not sinless. You need Christ's resurrecting power to do it.

I never suggested that I would be resurrected by my own power, nor would I ever. Not 'my' will, but his will be done. All I can do is have hope, that even I, a man who feels 'obligated' to pay for his own sins, might also be accepted by God, through his 'Grace', and Love.

If I do that which I feel is wrong, then wouldn't the very act condem me in the end? For the thing that is said to save me, will also be the very thing that will condem me in 'Spirit'.

I understand what you are trying to do, but I'm not like you, Dondi. I have different views as to what is acceptable behavior from me.

I will say this again:

Ask any child which is right...To let someone else be punished for what you did, or to be responsible, and bear the consequences yourself?

In the case of Jesus, it is the 'Spirit' behind allowing him to suffer, and die for my mistakes, that matters the most.

If I comprimise my moral backbone just to be 'guaranteed' salvation, then I betray God, Jesus, and myself. It would be a selfish act to do so, and I would most certainly be wrong for the comprimise.

I must have 'Faith,' and stay true to what I believe is right. That way, my conscience will be clear concerning Jesus, and what he means to me.

I guess my question to you Cage would be how can you truely love someone if you don't accept them?

I fully accept Jesus, I just don't accept him suffering on my behalf as a 'savior'.

Would you allow a friend, who you loved, be punished for something you did? If so, how could you truly say that you 'Loved' that friend, or even considered them to be a friend at all?

In my mind, if I truly want to show my Love for Jesus, than I must take responsibility for my own actions, and hope that by doing so, I too will be accepted.

Much Love,

~Cage~