Post-theistic Christianity "Other view"

[China Cat Sunflower]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Well, that is a rather interesting way of putting things...

It seems that the "old time religion" just gets more and more incompatible with the reality of our modern life. It's a beautiful anachronism to be sure, but how meaningful can that anachronism be? Still, perhaps religion itself as an institution is becoming an anachronism. Maybe nationalism has become the real religion, of which religion in the traditional sense is but a component. That's how it seems during this current dark age in the U.S..

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

It seems that the "old time religion" just gets more and more incompatible with the reality of our modern life. It's a beautiful anachronism to be sure, but how meaningful can that anachronism be? Still, perhaps religion itself as an institution is becoming an anachronism. Maybe nationalism has become the real religion, of which religion in the traditional sense is but a component. That's how it seems during this current dark age in the U.S..

Chris

Then again, I can start up a 1917 Ford with a twist of a handle...kind of hard to do the same with a 2006, model Chevy with a fried onboard computer...

so much for old time religion...eh?

I call it as I see it...don't you?

Q

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

It seems that the "old time religion" just gets more and more incompatible with the reality of our modern life. It's a beautiful anachronism to be sure, but how meaningful can that anachronism be? Still, perhaps religion itself as an institution is becoming an anachronism. Maybe nationalism has become the real religion, of which religion in the traditional sense is but a component. That's how it seems during this current dark age in the U.S..

Chris

Come on Chris, why not tell us how you really feel... . Sorry, just a little joking.

Seriously, I don't know what this old time religion that you are talking about is. I don't see it as an anachronism, I see it as a living faith, vital and relevant to my daily life. My daily life as a wife, mother, friend, and scientist (because that is my profession, or it twere bk) and citizen. If you are concerned with teasing apart the literal-factual from the sacred in the Bible, well, you are just barking up the wrong tree, IMO.

Nationalism? Ha! Nationalism is what the Church defies! Maybe religion gets highjacked to the service of state, but the Church is not concerned with any of the things 'national.' It's concerned with the Kingdom of God, a state of the heart, not the nation. Nationalism itself is an ideology for some. Not a great one, IMO.

It may be dark, we may be Rome. But there is always darkness and there is always a Rome. But God is the light and we can choose to live in the light at any time, regardless of what is going on around us.

lunamoth

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Well look, I'm happy for you both. If it's working for you that's great!

I just see empty forms. It looks like a big game of dress-up to me. All the spiffy robes and funky hats; all the form prayers and ancient creeds; all hinting at something arcane and possibly profound...I just can't do it. And are you sure your religion isn't a component of some insidious nationalistic control mechanism that keeps you contained intellectually and subservient to authority? I'm not saying, just asking...

Chris

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Well look, I'm happy for you both. If it's working for you that's great!

I just see empty forms. It looks like a big game of dress-up to me. All the spiffy robes and funky hats; all the form prayers and ancient creeds; all hinting at something arcane and possibly profound...I just can't do it. And are you sure your religion isn't a component of some insidious nationalistic control mechanism that keeps you contained intellectually and subservient to authority? I'm not saying, just asking...

Chris

As I said Chris, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel... .

If you just see empty forms then you are right, that's all that there is there for you.

But I am surprised at your conclusion that religion is a plot to make us subservient to authority. Christ's message and method was very subversive of authority, read Tolstoy, think Gandhi.

We've had threads about this before, the nuanced differences between faith, religion, church and Church.

Religions can be highjacked (and have been and are). Church organizations can be highjacked (and have been and are). But the Church can not.

luna, who was going to go to bed early for a change

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

-

The problem for me is trying to find a way to embrace Christ without having to compartmentalize my thoughts. I don't want two thought worlds: a spiritual one where the miraculous can happen, and a mundane one where it can't. Does that make any sense? I know that virgins don't conceive, people don't die and then come back to life, the sun can't stand still, mental illness doesn't come from evil spirits. I'm pretty sure that the gospels don't present history, and I know the OT doesn't either. I know that we are evolving as a species rather than devolving from some edenic state.

I don't want to construct special theories to rationalize things that aren't rational. If I'm going to be able to embrace my Christianity it's going to have to be in a way where there is one world that's both scientifically and spiritually viable. I'm experimenting, but I'm not at all convinced it's even possible...especially as a "religion".

Chris

Hi Chris, a last thought and then I really am off to bed. Why do you feel you must choose between the two extremes of a literal-factual understanding of the Bible (which I agree defies logic) and a 'special theory' with lots of doors out for your intellect while accepting (some things?) about Christianity? I'm not saying it's going to do anything for you, but perhaps you might try reading Marcus Borg, The Heart of Christianity. I don't agree with everything he says, but I found it a helpful book when I was re-embracing Christianity.



luna

 

[Bandit]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Well look, I'm happy for you both. If it's working for you that's great!

I just see empty forms. It looks like a big game of dress-up to me. All the spiffy robes and funky hats; all the form prayers and ancient creeds; all hinting at something arcane and possibly profound...I just can't do it. And are you sure your religion isn't a component of some insidious nationalistic control mechanism that keeps you contained intellectually and subservient to authority? I'm not saying, just asking...

Chris

i see some dogmatic religions that way with a political agenda. history shows that to be true. we are not that far apart on some of this.

 

[wil]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

... Why do you feel you must choose between the two extremes of a literal-factual understanding of the Bible (which I agree defies logic) and a 'special theory' with lots of doors out for your intellect while accepting (some things?) about Christianity? ...

The layers of understanding the bible provides are limitless. As I see it there is a litteral and historical basis and interpretation, as well as emotional, metaphysical, political, allegorical.... And all has value depending on the conditions and situations and upbringing of the person reading it...very much a group of living books which will have value for the ages...

Just like the way religions formed in ways that the peoples of that area were able to accept the thought, it resonated with that group and took hold...our various denominations, traditions, pomp and circumstance...it resonates with the group that attends that church...And all has value depending on the conditions and situations and upbringing of the persons attending... There is comfort in the rites for those that embrace them, there is meaning beyond what is scene, neurons are jumping with memories of past lessons, it prepares the space (in our mind) to be ready to receive the message (from spirit and/or the pulpit).

Everyone is where they need to be...there is no holier than thou...my religion's better than your religion...it is what we are ready for, it is what takes us up the path at this juncture in our lives... we have to respect that. Some need, crave, enjoy ritual...others don't. Seems to me thou we all have our rituals...we just call them different things...and don't see it as ritual...but any way it takes to prepare the ground, and open the curtains to let in the light is alright with me.

Do I believe as all do...uh, duh...no. Do I believe that 70% of christians take the bible 100% literally and think it is 100% accurate historic fact, no. But do I accept that that is possible and valuable, yes. And do I believe that 70% of christians would say at times that I am off my rocker...yes....but that's alright with me!

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

There is no way to generate an "ecclesia", based upon CR forums. This is a discussion board (lol), not a pulpit. No "following" will begin here. Are you sure that is what you meant?

v/r

Q

The translation of the Greek "ecclesia" is "to be called out". I see this as a call to transcend our limited humanity and become "divine" like Jesus. I don't see Jesus as God but as a manifestation of the presence of God. To me at least, God is not a being but being itself. God does not love us, God IS love. God does not create life, God IS life.

Anyway, we can all follow "God" in our own way. Via Jesus, Buddha, Lao-Tze, Mohammed, Zoroaster it doesn't matter. The Church is the body of Christ which is nothing more than a community of believers. For some, being a believer means believing in the Bible's historicity, accepting miracles, and the like. For me, being a believer means living life to the fullest, loving wastefully and (I know it sounds corny) being all that I can be.

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

I've read most of Spong's books and I like what he's saying, but I have the nagging feeling that he's just peeing in the wind. I'm not sure Christianity can scrape off the two thousand years of theistic patina and still have any kind of institution left.

The problem for me is trying to find a way to embrace Christ without having to compartmentalize my thoughts. I don't want two thought worlds: a spiritual one where the miraculous can happen, and a mundane one where it can't. Does that make any sense? I know that virgins don't conceive, people don't die and then come back to life, the sun can't stand still, mental illness doesn't come from evil spirits. I'm pretty sure that the gospels don't present history, and I know the OT doesn't either. I know that we are evolving as a species rather than devolving from some edenic state.

I don't want to construct special theories to rationalize things that aren't rational. If I'm going to be able to embrace my Christianity it's going to have to be in a way where there is one world that's both scientifically and spiritually viable. I'm experimenting, but I'm not at all convinced it's even possible...especially as a "religion".

Chris

Hi Chris,

I think that Spong is saying that Christianity MUST take off its theistic, supernatural cloak or otherwise it will drown from being weighed down in postmodern waters. He is very adamant, and he makes a convincing case, that Christianity will die if it doesn't change. How it should change is certainly up for grabs, but change it must.

Nice meeting you.
v/r...(I hope you don't mind if I use that Q)
Tony

 

[wil]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

I think that Spong is saying that Christianity MUST take off its theistic, supernatural cloak or otherwise it will drown from being weighed down in postmodern waters. He is very adamant, and he makes a convincing case, that Christianity will die if it doesn't change. How it should change is certainly up for grabs, but change it must.

So a group of people started writing books a few decades after Jesus walked the earth...their veiwpoint, their memories, what they heard and or understood and or what they wanted others to think they heard and or understood...

Some argued about the correctness of the teachings and worried that it was being done all wrong....

Then a few centuries later another group got together and sorted thru the books and compiled them into the Book, and called it the word...they had a fistfight over the Trinity and voted the lead character in as a diety...

Many feared this was the end of the glory of christianity as the universal church told us what we could and could not think on the subject

Then centuries more down the road, that dogma was protested and there was a major reform movement, but even that movement couldn't agree and it became divided as well...

Again it appeared this could be the straw that broke the camel's back, christianity as we knew it would no longer exist, the disagreements were to vast..

How many times, how many ways will this go on? Do we truly think this is destroying christianity as we know it....or could it possibly be returning it to its true form, what was actually preached 2000 years ago?

I think that Spong is saying that Christianity MUST take off its theistic, supernatural cloak or otherwise it will drown from being weighed down in postmodern waters. He is very adamant, and he makes a convincing case, that Christianity will die if it doesn't change. How it should change is certainly up for grabs, but change it must.

Are we not just taking the cloaks off? Was Jesus teaching us supernatural thought, or natural things, which all men can do should they put their mind to it, should they decide to apply themselves to allowing spirit to work thru them...faith of a mustard seed...

I gotta get the book...

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

wil, you bring up some very good thoughts.

Perhaps Christianity is changing as it has over the last two millenia and that, once again, it will be better off for it. Let's try an analogy...Christianity (and other religions as well) suffers from supernatural obesity. There have been many revisions over the years....a little tummy tuck here, a little chin lift there. However, the naturalistic, post-theistic revolution will, I think, be a drastic reconstructive surgery complete with face-lift and stomach stapling. The resultant patient will be much better to look at and he/she will feel a whole lot better about him/herself. But of course the patients' heart will be the same. If we don't perform the surgery though, the patient will be unfortunately ostracized and will probably die.

When the obesity becomes bad enough, dieting and exercise alone will not work. Major surgery becomes the only alternative.

There are many "skinny" postmodern scientific/naturalistic humanists walking around that feel liberated and proud that they're not like that "obese Christian" over there. The problem is that the humanists are missing a wonderful opportunity to meet the beautiful heart of this suffering patient. The patient, likewise, is missing out on an opportunity to become a happier participant in the world with its naturalistic and scientific worldview.

Anyway, I can't exhaust this analogy any further.

You and I are singin' the same song dude.

Peace,
Tony

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

By the way wil,

What part of Maryland are you from? My parents live in Jarrettsville which is in Harford County. We are about 15 minutes north of Bel Air.

Just curious.

 

[wil]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Bowie/PG County...smack dab between DC and Annapolis, due south of Baltimore...

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Bowie/PG County...smack dab between DC and Annapolis, due south of Baltimore...

cool

I went to Univ. of MD and UMBC in the 90's. My father would take me crabbing in Annapolis when I was a little tike. My wife, children and I spend the summer in Ocean City. Small world, huh?

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

cool

I went to Univ. of MD and UMBC in the 90's. My father would take me crabbing in Annapolis when I was a little tike. My wife, children and I spend the summer in Ocean City. Small world, huh?

If you're a Ravens fan, we'll have to start a new thread.

 

[AletheiaRivers]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

To me at least, God is not a being but being itself. God does not love us, God IS love. God does not create life, God IS life.

Nicely put.

Cool avatar, btw.

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

Nicely put.

Cool avatar, btw.

Thank you Aletheia. Your avatar is nice as well.

Caio

 

[lunamoth]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

To me at least, God is not a being but being itself. God does not love us, God IS love. God does not create life, God IS life.

Yes, God is Being. God is love and loves us. God creates life and God is life.

I have not read a lot of Spong, but I usually find myself enjoying what little I've read. Sometimes I wonder if where I think I differ from him is merely in semantics, or perhaps in the way we view metaphor. But, in the way it has been presented in the posts above I disagree with a "post-theism" Christianity. That's really throwing the baby out with the bath. And we don't need to 'modernize' Christianity--I think more Christians just need to dive a little deeper into what Christianity is all about and not settle for a Sunday School version of God. Not that anyone has to do this, but if someone is considering rejecting Christiantiy they really should learn more about what it is they are rejecting. They may find it is not what they think it is. I made this mistake myself.

Much of what I've read above, to be honest, strikes me as a New Age tendency that really is a very time-worn tendency to put ourselves in the driver's seat.

Spong wants to 'move beyond' a supernatural explanation of Christ, as do other Bible scholars like Borg and Corssan (I think). That seems to me to be embracing the materialism that our Christian faith offers to get take us beyond. I do not look for supernatural explanations to fill in my understanding of the workings of our material universe. I probably believe in a lot fewer 'supernatural' things than most other people on this forum. All healing is spiritual healing. So what if it is accomplished by the forgiveness of sin or by a $500K per year neuro- surgeon? What happens in church every Sunday is supernatural: the Divine breaks through. If God is not supernatural, what is? What happens when I pray? What happens when I read the Bible? God breaks through.

It is about elevating the ordinary to the extraordinary.

It is not the robes and the choir and the artwork and the lofty language. It is God among us. Look! The Kingdom of God is within us.

 

[YNOT]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

Yes, God is Being. God is love and loves us. God creates life and God is life.

I have not read a lot of Spong, but I usually find myself enjoying what little I've read. Sometimes I wonder if where I think I differ from him is merely in semantics, or perhaps in the way we view metaphor. But, in the way it has been presented in the posts above I disagree with a "post-theism" Christianity. That's really throwing the baby out with the bath. And we don't need to 'modernize' Christianity--I think more Christians just need to dive a little deeper into what Christianity is all about and not settle for a Sunday School version of God. Not that anyone has to do this, but if someone is considering rejecting Christiantiy they really should learn more about what it is they are rejecting. They may find it is not what they think it is. I made this mistake myself.

Much of what I've read above, to be honest, strikes me as a New Age tendency that really is a very time-worn tendency to put ourselves in the driver's seat.

Spong wants to 'move beyond' a supernatural explanation of Christ, as do other Bible scholars like Borg and Corssan (I think). That seems to me to be embracing the materialism that our Christian faith offers to get take us beyond. I do not look for supernatural explanations to fill in my understanding of the workings of our material universe. I probably believe in a lot fewer 'supernatural' things than most other people on this forum. All healing is spiritual healing. So what if it is accomplished by the forgiveness of sin or by a $500K per year neuro- surgeon? What happens in church every Sunday is supernatural: the Divine breaks through. If God is not supernatural, what is? What happens when I pray? What happens when I read the Bible? God breaks through.

It is about elevating the ordinary to the extraordinary.

It is not the robes and the choir and the artwork and the lofty language. It is God among us. Look! The Kingdom of God is within us.

Hi lunamoth...It is a pleasure to meet you.

I really can't find any serious areas of disagreement here. I think we are on the same page. A post-theistic Christianity is for us "believers in exile" who simply cannot subscribe any longer to a patriarchal God who demands our obediance with threats of damnation. As wil said (and I'm paraphrasing), this was a pre-axial understanding that made sense to people living in AD 50-whenever.

I don't feel you are saying this, I'm just asking rhetorically:
I just don't see why I cannot be called a Christian if I wish to remove its' supernatural cultural trappings. What Spong does for me and people like me is to make us feel welcome in a church that, unfortunately sometimes, doesn't want us there. I love Jesus. I feel, though, that I can approach him better when I know that he is different in degree rather than in kind.

Namaste,
Y