Post-theistic Christianity "Other view"

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

lunamoth said:
A crisis is an opportunity, but I must say I don't see any crisis. :) IMV yes, the Church evolves and people like Spong, and Dobson, play their parts in the process by creating the tension and disequilbrium in which the Holy Spirit moves. The KOG is not created by one person or even one person who generates a large following. The KOG is all around us and we participate in it when we follow the love commandments. If old edifices crumble and leave just the shining light of the Way, that will be fine with me. But I do believe that the scaffold of religious thought created by the work of the Spirit interacting with we mere humans over the past millenia is indeed a trustworthy way to grow toward God. But sure, you can't climb a ladder you don't think will hold you. God in His mercy provides other paths.

2 c,
lunamoth
Thank you lunamoth,

I really enjoy everyone's posts. It is so refreshing to be able to discuss controversial viewpoints and not have to feel defensive in any way. I knew I was making a good decision to come to the CR-forum.

I agree with you lunamoth that "the Way" is universal. I see the Way crossing all boundaries (religious, doctrinal, gender, sexual-orientation, racial, whatever). I think this is an exciting time that we're living in. Religious pluralism and diversity is being practiced all over the world and it brings a smile to my face.

I hope any minor disagreements I may have had with others on this forum on minute issues doesn't hide the deepest respect and gratitude I have for everyone here. From all of the warm posts I have received lately, it is obvious that everyone here is a part of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Thanks everybody,
Tony

I've tried other forums in the past and I can say for sure that I am here to stay.:D
 
lunamoth}First said:
was[/I] the Message. I second Juan's challenge that you show how these things were 'added on' 'by committee.' Perhaps you also think that the promise of the Holy Spirit Who leads us into all truth is also just cultural baggage? Of course you are entitiled to your views, but in honesty I can't see the difference between what you are proposing as 'non-theistic Christianity' and secular humanism with Jesus as a figurehead. *shrug* What's the point?

If the point is that you want to congregate with like-minded individuals I think you shall have no problem finding them. You can find lots of people who think as you do. If you want to somehow be 'accepted' by the Christian community I don't think you'd have any problem finding a niche. If you find meaning in the liturgy and sacraments you could attend an Episcopal Church and no one is going to try to nail you down on what you believe about this or that, although you would need to be baptized to take communion. I would think that you would not have a problem with that since the two sacraments 'go together,' if you will, and so you can either accept or reject them together. You could also find community with the liberal Quakers, or Unitarian Universalists. Wil mentioned that he goes to a church called Unity, and I'm sure you could find fellowship there. Anyway, maybe community is not what you are striving for at all, but I'm just trying to figure out what it is you are trying to build with your ecclesi here.

I'm going to try to stick to the topic here.

Of all the things that Christianity, or organized religion in general does, the spiritual is just a part. There's a lot of social interaction and community going on, but religion is also a social control mechanism that works with the rule of law to keep people in line. So the first question I have when considering the viability of a non-supernatural, non-theistic "religion" is: how does it serve the function of social control? You see, fear of God has a benefit to the state because the state has always proposed that it is God's agent on earth. When Christianity wed itself to the political aims of the Roman empire it became a viable agent of social control. Without that nobody would have ever heard of it. And it still fulfills that function which has accounted for its historical success. So if we're going to have a Christianity that is no longer designed to be the tool of the power elite, and which lacks an Almighty God to instill fear, and an avatar to save us, and a patriarchally arranged pecking order, what will the function of this religion be? Will it provide anything that a membership in a bowling league won't?

I dunno. I like Spong for his courage, but I kinda see him like a Gorbachev: incouraging reforms which would have the ultimate effect of destroying that which he wishes to save. Not that I would mind seeing the utter demise of organized religion, ... I really don't have a dog in that fight. Maybe I'm an iconoclast, but I see the solitary path as the only real alternative. Then again, I'm often wrong.

Chris
 
Re: Post-theistic Christianity

juantoo3 said:
Why would not "miracles" and "super-natural" occurances happen? Because somebody with an over-educated mind and little else to contribute says these things are illogical?

Can't speak for anybody else, but I have seen miracles in my own life, that could not be explained by any rational process. I have seen many times similar occurances in other people's lives. So now, I am to disbelieve in miracles, not because of evidence, but because it is irrational?

It took a Pagan friend of mine to point out, that to a Creator of (a) universe(s), a virgin pregnancy and birth is child's play. Why would He have trouble making the sun apparently stand still? Why would He have any problem whatsoever doing whatever He deigns to do? Including manipulating formal religious and political structures?

Are we, miserable little pukes that we all are, the potter, or the clay? Do we make God in our own image, or do we strive to understand Him as He is?

I'm afraid that what I see so far is just another fragmentation excuse to further divide the institution of Christianity. No matter what we think, or feel, or pretend, or imagine; God is God. The question is, do we see Him for what He really is, or do we continue to paint Him as we desire Him to be? Do we invent a god in our own image to make "him" more palatable and less obsolete? My vote is no, but then, I know I do not speak for everybody. :D

Here's the problem: If anything, absolutely anything, is possible for God, then absolutely anything is possible. If absolutely anything is possible then we're completely adrift without an anchor or sail. If absolutely anything is possible there's no point in even having an intelligence because nothing can be proved, nothing can be pinned down, and we're sitting ducks for any huckster or snake oil salesman who happens to come along.

See, the problem isn't that God can do whatever he wants, the problem is that those who presume to speak for God can sell us anything they want just by reminding us, as you have, that knowlege is stupid while faith and trust are salvation's gate. While we revel in our own ignorance and superstition they get to control our fate.

Chris
 
Re: Post-theistic Christianity

Kindest Regards, YNOT!

Thank you for your response!
YNOT said:
I appreciate your taking the time to respond to my post. I do want to begin by stating that these are my honest opinions and I am certainly not insisting that others see it my way. I don't know how I could make another person think what I think anyway....I can only discuss things and see how they proceed. In the process, others may learn something and be changed...I know for sure that I will learn something and perhaps be changed as well.
I appreciate this attitude, and it is precisely this attitude why this thread is being allowed conditionally as an opportunity, to show the mettle of those who hold such views. It is unfortunate, but past experience has not been so pleasant, so we will start with baby steps and see where this leads us.

Talking about the Council of Nicea is a tall order.
Perhaps, yet I am not the one who has brought this forward in support of my views.

It would perhaps be better to direct you to Wikipedia where it refers to how 1800 bishops came together to try to form a consensus on what eventually became official church doctrine.
I do have reservations with using Wikipedia. Anyone can post anything they like, truth is a subjective matter. I prefer using sites that end in .edu, that is, colleges and universities. BTW, I did (finally) find a reasonably comprehensive site that addressed the canons of Nicea I: www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/source/nicea1-sel.html

FWIW, I still did not find anything to denote what you alluded to earlier. So, the onus being on the presenter, please show me what you are alluding to. (There were not 1800 bishops there, btw, not even close, at least not according to this Jesuit university website)

Unless I am merely to take you (and / or Spong) at your word...in which case how is this any better than what I already have available to me? Why not just take Pat Robertson at his word?

I'm sure that we can all agree that the amalgamation of Christian beliefs that we know today was refined over the centuries and, in many cases, the claims became more and more fantastic. To state in a few sentences why this happened would be utterly impossible as I would have to explain the psychology, sociology, politics, scandal, intrigue, fears, prejudice and confusion of tens of generations of people over two millenia...it's just not possible. What I can say is that today's scientific understanding cannot attest to the validity of these supernatural claims.
I accept this is an involved topic, yet I have posted quite a few times addressing these very things in various threads as the need arose. I see a focus on the political institutions of religion, specifically Christianity, at the expense of the personal aspects of same.

I want to repeat that I'm not saying that any other Christian interpretations are wrong. I'm just saying that I don't know why my POV MUST be rejected as false...especially if I'm questioning the validity of certain supernatural claims while living in 2006.
Interpretations are personal matters. The problem arises that only one interpretation can be factually true. Other interpretations may well serve the purpose, instilling the lessons and leading to proper action. In that regard, no one here yet has stated that your POV "must" be rejected. If it works for you, i.e., manifests as the proper actions in your life toward others, then so be it, for you. The challenge comes when others' views "must" be rejected, and how it is done.

I agree that John Shelby Spong is attempting to overturn a lot of supporting pillars of today's Christian church. What I see him doing though is removing wobbly supports so that new and stronger ones can be put in their place. Otherwise, it will probably crumble and leave the important parts of the church, the open space for the community to enter, in shambles.
If it works for you, do as you feel is correct. As for myself, I do not see it. Not for lack of trying to understand what you have written (I am not familiar with Spong's writings). I see sufficient inconsistency to call the whole into question. :D
 
Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Thank you for your response!
China Cat Sunflower said:
Of all the things that Christianity, or organized religion in general does, the spiritual is just a part.
Yes, but is it not the most important part concerning the individual?

There's a lot of social interaction and community going on, but religion is also a social control mechanism that works with the rule of law to keep people in line.
Yes, and has been since Mesopotamia, possibly before.

So the first question I have when considering the viability of a non-supernatural, non-theistic "religion" is: how does it serve the function of social control?
How can it address the spiritual requirements of the individual? With a list of "do's and don't's?" I fail to see how such can address the spiritual needs of each person.

You see, fear of God has a benefit to the state because the state has always proposed that it is God's agent on earth. When Christianity wed itself to the political aims of the Roman empire it became a viable agent of social control. Without that nobody would have ever heard of it. And it still fulfills that function which has accounted for its historical success. So if we're going to have a Christianity that is no longer designed to be the tool of the power elite, and which lacks an Almighty God to instill fear, and an avatar to save us, and a patriarchally arranged pecking order, what will the function of this religion be? Will it provide anything that a membership in a bowling league won't?
Difficult to see how.

I see the solitary path as the only real alternative. Then again, I'm often wrong.
In this, you and I are not so different.

Here's the problem: If anything, absolutely anything, is possible for God, then absolutely anything is possible. If absolutely anything is possible then we're completely adrift without an anchor or sail. If absolutely anything is possible there's no point in even having an intelligence because nothing can be proved, nothing can be pinned down, and we're sitting ducks for any huckster or snake oil salesman who happens to come along.
Of course, as a questioning solitary, I have the luxury of trying to sort out the hucksters from those with sincerity. Even sincerity is no guarantee of factual truth, but it can go a long way if the fruit of the spirit is evident. The fruit of the spirit will not be evident in conjunction with fraud.

See, the problem isn't that God can do whatever he wants, the problem is that those who presume to speak for God can sell us anything they want just by reminding us, as you have, that knowlege is stupid while faith and trust are salvation's gate. While we revel in our own ignorance and superstition they get to control our fate.
Yes, those who "presume to speak for G-d" must be taken with a grain of salt, whoever they may be. In my opinion, especially those who see themselves as G-d, even potentially so.

BTW, I never implied knowledge was stupid. Please re-read the thread. Knowledge is vain, it will not of itself get us to heaven. Knowledge, when properly applied becomes wisdom, and from there understanding. Yet even wisdom and understanding are vain, if one does not produce the fruit of the spirit in doing what is asked of us: Fear G-d, and keep His commandments. The words of Solomon, not mine, albeit my interpretation with the help of a Strong's concordance. Or as Jesus (Yahshua) told us; Love G-d, and Love our neighbors as ourselves. So, "must" my view be rejected because my scholarship disagrees with yours? Especially when I apply that knowledge on a daily basis?

Since I have striven since childhood to gain knowledge, it would be foolish of me to say knowledge is stupid. Not to mention, it would create a psychological dichotomy within myself that could not be resolved without becoming insane, a long time ago. Knowledge without application, as I said then, is wasted effort. What we believe is not nearly as important as what we do with what we believe. That is where "enlightenment" took a wrong turn, placing focus on the knowledge at the expense of the righteous actions. :D
 
Chris,

Perhaps to you the spiritual side of Christianity is only part of the whole. But to many, it is the whole, and the rest is dressing that can be tossed in a second. Chritianity is not a religion Chris. Hence, it can't be used as a form of social control. Denominations, now they can be considered forms of religion (hence the social control concept). The rich and powerful are only so, in their own minds. They may be able to cause temporary set backs (temprary as a relative term), but ultimately, good of all wins over desires of the few. I don't think you or I or anyone knows the personal mind of Constatine, when he converted to Christianity. So this argument could be considered mute.

Funny you mentioned bowling...some times the Christian will think, "let the other win"...

Gorbachev, was trying to save his people...and he suceeded, at the cost to his own power (which I doubt he cared much for).

Anarchy, never kept a people together, and never succeeded in stopping an enemy from taking over. "Io solo" only works in personal thought and inner concepts.

v/r

Q
 
Re: Post-theistic Christianity

China Cat Sunflower said:
Here's the problem: If anything, absolutely anything, is possible for God, then absolutely anything is possible. If absolutely anything is possible then we're completely adrift without an anchor or sail. If absolutely anything is possible there's no point in even having an intelligence because nothing can be proved, nothing can be pinned down, and we're sitting ducks for any huckster or snake oil salesman who happens to come along.

See, the problem isn't that God can do whatever he wants, the problem is that those who presume to speak for God can sell us anything they want just by reminding us, as you have, that knowlege is stupid while faith and trust are salvation's gate. While we revel in our own ignorance and superstition they get to control our fate.

Chris

Possible and Probable are two different animals...

Knowledge is a double edged sword...just as trust and faith can be. As I recall, Christ warned us to be as "wise as snakes, but as innocent as doves"...

v/r

Q
 
Since one topic of discussion is the Councils of Nicea, let me lend a little support to this notion that we should more closely examine just how we ended up with the decisions that were made. I think there's plenty of scholarly citation within the following commentary:
WE must not forget that the Christian Church owes its present canonical Gospels, and hence its whole religious dogmatism, to the Sortes Sanctorum. Unable to agree as to which were the most divinely-inspired of the numerous gospels extant in its time, the mysterious Council of Nicea concluded to leave the decision of the puzzling question to miraculous intervention. This Nicean Council may well be called mysterious. There was a mystery, first, in the mystical number of its 318 bishops, on which Barnabas (viii. 11, 12, 13) lays such a stress; added to this, there is no agreement among ancient writers as to the time and place of its assembly, nor even as to the bishop who presided. Notwithstanding the grandiloquent eulogium of Constantine,* Sabinus, the Bishop of Heraclea, affirms that "except Constantine, the emperor, and Eusebius Pamphilus, these bishops were a set of illiterate, simple creatures, that understood nothing"; which is equivalent to saying that they were a set of fools. Such was apparently the opinion entertained of them by Pappus, who tells us of the bit of magic resorted to to decide which were the true gospels. In his Synodicon to that Council Pappus says, having "promiscuously put all the books that were referred to the Council for determination under a communion-table in a church, they (the bishops) besought the Lord that the inspired writings might get upon the table, while the spurious ones remained underneath, and it happened accordingly."But we are not told who kept the keys of the council chamber over night!

On the authority of ecclesiastical eye-witnesses, therefore, we are at liberty to say that the Christian world owes its "Word of God" to a method of divination, for resorting to which the Church subsequently condemned unfortunate victims as conjurers, enchanters, magicians, witches, and vaticinators, and burnt them by thousands! In treating of this truly divine phenomenon of the self-sorting manuscripts, the Fathers of the Church say that God himself presides over the Sortes. As we have shown elsewhere, Augustine confesses that he himself used this sort of divination. But opinions, like revealed religions, are liable to change. That which for nearly fifteen hundred years was imposed on Christendom as a book, of which every word was written under the direct supervision of the Holy Ghost; of which not a syllable, nor a comma could be changed without sacrilege, is now being retranslated, revised, corrected, and clipped of whole verses, in some cases of entire chapters. And yet, as soon as the new edition is out, its doctors would have us accept it as a new "Revelation" of the nineteenth century, with the alternative of being held as an infidel. Thus, we see that, no more within than without its precincts, is the infallible Church to be trusted more than would be reasonably convenient. The forefathers of our modern divines found authority for the Sortes in the verse where it is said: "The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord";* and now, their direct heirs hold that "the whole disposing thereof is of the Devil." Perhaps, they are unconsciously beginning to endorse the doctrine of the Syrian Bardesanes, that the actions of God, as well as of man, are subject to necessity?

* "Proverbs," chap. xvi., p. 33. In ancient Egypt and Greece, and among Israelites, small sticks and balls called the "sacred divining lots" were used for this kind of oracle in the temples. According to the figures which were formed by the accidental juxtaposition of the latter, the priest interpreted the will of the gods.


- this being but two short paragraphs of exposition from a volume whose 600+ pages all treat, in due measure, of the need for a re-evaluation of Christianity in a more modern light (and even these excerpts are dated by some one and a quarter centuries, being overshadowed by yet further advances in psychology, the natural sciences, and ecumenical endeavor in the interventing times).

Food for thought. Verily, a small feast!

taijasi
 
taijasi said:
Since one topic of discussion is the Councils of Nicea, let me lend a little support to this notion that we should more closely examine just how we ended up with the decisions that were made. I think there's plenty of scholarly citation within the following commentary:
WE must not forget that the Christian Church owes its present canonical Gospels, and hence its whole religious dogmatism, to the Sortes Sanctorum. Unable to agree as to which were the most divinely-inspired of the numerous gospels extant in its time, the mysterious Council of Nicea concluded to leave the decision of the puzzling question to miraculous intervention. This Nicean Council may well be called mysterious. There was a mystery, first, in the mystical number of its 318 bishops, on which Barnabas (viii. 11, 12, 13) lays such a stress; added to this, there is no agreement among ancient writers as to the time and place of its assembly, nor even as to the bishop who presided. Notwithstanding the grandiloquent eulogium of Constantine,* Sabinus, the Bishop of Heraclea, affirms that "except Constantine, the emperor, and Eusebius Pamphilus, these bishops were a set of illiterate, simple creatures, that understood nothing"; which is equivalent to saying that they were a set of fools. Such was apparently the opinion entertained of them by Pappus, who tells us of the bit of magic resorted to to decide which were the true gospels. In his Synodicon to that Council Pappus says, having "promiscuously put all the books that were referred to the Council for determination under a communion-table in a church, they (the bishops) besought the Lord that the inspired writings might get upon the table, while the spurious ones remained underneath, and it happened accordingly."But we are not told who kept the keys of the council chamber over night!

On the authority of ecclesiastical eye-witnesses, therefore, we are at liberty to say that the Christian world owes its "Word of God" to a method of divination, for resorting to which the Church subsequently condemned unfortunate victims as conjurers, enchanters, magicians, witches, and vaticinators, and burnt them by thousands! In treating of this truly divine phenomenon of the self-sorting manuscripts, the Fathers of the Church say that God himself presides over the Sortes. As we have shown elsewhere, Augustine confesses that he himself used this sort of divination. But opinions, like revealed religions, are liable to change. That which for nearly fifteen hundred years was imposed on Christendom as a book, of which every word was written under the direct supervision of the Holy Ghost; of which not a syllable, nor a comma could be changed without sacrilege, is now being retranslated, revised, corrected, and clipped of whole verses, in some cases of entire chapters. And yet, as soon as the new edition is out, its doctors would have us accept it as a new "Revelation" of the nineteenth century, with the alternative of being held as an infidel. Thus, we see that, no more within than without its precincts, is the infallible Church to be trusted more than would be reasonably convenient. The forefathers of our modern divines found authority for the Sortes in the verse where it is said: "The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord";* and now, their direct heirs hold that "the whole disposing thereof is of the Devil." Perhaps, they are unconsciously beginning to endorse the doctrine of the Syrian Bardesanes, that the actions of God, as well as of man, are subject to necessity?

* "Proverbs," chap. xvi., p. 33. In ancient Egypt and Greece, and among Israelites, small sticks and balls called the "sacred divining lots" were used for this kind of oracle in the temples. According to the figures which were formed by the accidental juxtaposition of the latter, the priest interpreted the will of the gods.


- this being but two short paragraphs of exposition from a volume whose 600+ pages all treat, in due measure, of the need for a re-evaluation of Christianity in a more modern light (and even these excerpts are dated by some one and a quarter centuries, being overshadowed by yet further advances in psychology, the natural sciences, and ecumenical endeavor in the interventing times).

Food for thought. Verily, a small feast!

taijasi

Hi Andrew, You failed to cite your reference for the above.

from: Madame Blavatsky and her teaching - Theosophy.

cheers,
lunamoth
 
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Re: Post-theistic Christianity

China Cat Sunflower said:
Here's the problem: If anything, absolutely anything, is possible for God, then absolutely anything is possible. If absolutely anything is possible then we're completely adrift without an anchor or sail. If absolutely anything is possible there's no point in even having an intelligence because nothing can be proved, nothing can be pinned down, and we're sitting ducks for any huckster or snake oil salesman who happens to come along.

See, the problem isn't that God can do whatever he wants, the problem is that those who presume to speak for God can sell us anything they want just by reminding us, as you have, that knowlege is stupid while faith and trust are salvation's gate. While we revel in our own ignorance and superstition they get to control our fate.

Chris

It seems I'm coming a bit late to this conversation. It's rather interesting. I've read Spong, and I've found it an interesting read, and informative, but I think he throws the baby out with the bathwater as well.

My response would be:
1. The reason the miracles and other fantastic stuff in the Bible are important (or at least one reason) is that it creates a sense of awe, mystery, and an intellectual problem. We're supposed to have our brains hurt thinking about this stuff. The paradoxes and the miracles are not to be taken on blind belief, nor thrown out all together- they are for pondering, meditating- a doorway to experiencing the Divine. A bit like koans. They force us to start thinking outside our normal modes- enabling us to break free (at least a bit) from the limitations of our culture, time period, etc.

2. Just because anything is possible doesn't mean theories cannot be put forth. There are rarely, rarely any 100% accurate theories about anything. We find things we thought were impossible all the time- black holes, for example. The possibility of more than four dimensions and multiverses. At one point, people thought the earth was flat. Very recently, we thought that there was a clear distinction between life and non-life, until we found things like viruses and prions. The natural world is a miracle. As a scientist, I have no problems thinking that anything is possible and yet generating theories to predict what will probably happen. I've talked to people who were dead for more than ten minutes- clinically dead- and came back. Do I predict it will happen to any person? No. Can it happen? Apparently. The records are there. I know a lot of atheistic, rational anthropologists who have seen things they can't explain.

3. I'm not offended, but I'll call this as I see it. I think people who find folks that believe in the supernatural and miracles outdated, uninformed, etc. are arrogant. Many, many people in the world from many religions believe in miracles and supernatural forces. Why should a relative minority from (mostly) the first world get to say they are the ones who figured out how things really work? And the rest of the world is delusional? Somehow, I have a hard time discounting the many intelligent and educated people I've known who had near-death experiences, miraculous healings, visions, etc. Who am I to say these things do not exist? I can only say whether or not I have experienced them.

4. Is the point of intelligence to pin anything down? To make theories? Or does it allow us, in some special way, to journey toward uniting with the Divine? There are more reasons for intelligence than just generating predictive theories- art, expression, spirituality come to mind. As do the mundane concerns of tool making, being a fantastically successful species, and having very complex societies- all based on our intelligence.

5. We are told that if we cultivate a personal relationship with God, we will be given an internal guide (the Spirit) to discern those that will help us on our journey versus those that are seeking power, delusional, or whatever. We are not left alone to distinguish between everyone claiming to have God's message. We are given a manifestation of God Himself, plus His Word to us in the teachings of Jesus, to help us. Those that follow God will show the fruits of the Spirit.

While I enjoyed Spong, a lot of this is admittedly just irrelevant to me. As a mystic, I've experienced what I would consider a very supernatural world since I was a young child. I do not view God as an old guy in the sky. I'm reasonably well-educated and intelligent, and I have the pieces of paper that show society thinks so too. But I believe in miracles and a supernatural world. I believe in the divinity of Jesus, and an awesome and mysterious One God. Indeed, I think the natural world is far closer to the supernatural than most ever think. The two are completely suffused with one another in my estimation, based on my experiences. I would put forth that some of us who believe in miracles, the Mystery, all that... we are not necessarily indoctrinated or blind. Indeed, I was not raised in a church. Long before I knew anything of doctrine, I perceived and experienced the supernatural. For some of us at least, belief in these things is rational. It is based on our actual experiences and our best theories about those experiences.
 
Excellent post path! You might be surprised if you knew how little I disagree with what you've said.

The reason the miracles and other fantastic stuff in the Bible are important (or at least one reason) is that it creates a sense of awe, mystery, and an intellectual problem. We're supposed to have our brains hurt thinking about this stuff. The paradoxes and the miracles are not to be taken on blind belief, nor thrown out all together- they are for pondering, meditating- a doorway to experiencing the Divine. A bit like koans. They force us to start thinking outside our normal modes- enabling us to break free (at least a bit) from the limitations of our culture, time period, etc.

I don't know if this is going to make any sense, but I think that turning the metaphysical into an actual event destroys both the mystery and the miracle. This is a uniquely modern problem. You may have gathered from what I've said that I only value deductive and rational reasoning, but that's not true. What I'm leary of is rationalizing the mystical. I'm not saying that the metaphysical should be kept strictly seperate from the physical, just that the symbiosis, if you will, of the two, it seems to me, is destroyed by forcing the mystical to become deducible. (I've been reading stuff on postmodernism and it's turned my mind into a pretzel, so if that doesn't make any sense don't feel bad.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "supernatural". I see all of life as a sacred, magical experience. Could you give me an example of something supernatural that you've experienced? I mean, something that defies the laws of nature.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
I don't know if this is going to make any sense, but I think that turning the metaphysical into an actual event destroys both the mystery and the miracle. This is a uniquely modern problem. You may have gathered from what I've said that I only value deductive and rational reasoning, but that's not true. What I'm leary of is rationalizing the mystical. I'm not saying that the metaphysical should be kept strictly seperate from the physical, just that the symbiosis, if you will, of the two, it seems to me, is destroyed by forcing the mystical to become deducible. (I've been reading stuff on postmodernism and it's turned my mind into a pretzel, so if that doesn't make any sense don't feel bad.)

Actually, this DOES make a lot of sense to me, if I am understanding you correctly. This is why I say 'if you are asking whether the miracles of the Bible are literal-factual you are barking up the wrong tree.' I don't mean that they are or are not literal events, but that if you are focusing on them that way you are missing what they are all about.

And that is a great post, Path. They are something like koans. Really, I see the message of Christ, and the whole NT for that matter, as an invitation. An invitation to see things differently. And to respond differently.

2 c,
lunamoth
 
I was wondering why this is a sticky thread? I was reading it trying to find some bit of importance that a "sticky" thread implies.. something that effects me as a christian member of this forum... Did I miss something? I dont know who Spong is and from what I gathered from the posts hes not someone I would add to my bookshelf. Is this more than just a discussion like every other thread here?

Could someone try explaining to me whats going on? Thanks

edit.. ok Dor just reminded me who Spong is and Im still asking why is this a sticky thread? lol
 
lunamoth said:
Actually, this DOES make a lot of sense to me, if I am understanding you correctly. This is why I say 'if you are asking whether the miracles of the Bible are literal-factual you are barking up the wrong tree.' I don't mean that they are or are not literal events, but that if you are focusing on them that way you are missing what they are all about.

2 c,
lunamoth

Yeah, you do understand! See, there are these two well defined camps: I'm not sure "literalist" is the right word, but maybe you know what I mean, and what I would call "debunkers". I think that both sides are making the mistake of trying to force rationality, or logical "systems" onto the mystical. The literalists continually have to come up with special theories for how Noah could have gotten all those animals into the ark and where all the water went after, or how the sun really, literally could have stood still, or why Matthew and Luke give Jesus two different grandpas. The debunkers really make the same mistake in that all they see is what they're looking for: inconsistencies and impossibilities.

The problem for me is that when I try to write what I'm thinking I have a hard time finding a language that doesn't wind up sounding like one or the other faction. But I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a detractor--even if I sound like one.:)

Chris
 
Faithfulservant said:
I was wondering why this is a sticky thread? I was reading it trying to find some bit of importance that a "sticky" thread implies.. something that effects me as a christian member of this forum... Did I miss something? I dont know who Spong is and from what I gathered from the posts hes not someone I would add to my bookshelf. Is this more than just a discussion like every other thread here?

Could someone try explaining to me whats going on? Thanks

edit.. ok Dor just reminded me who Spong is and Im still asking why is this a sticky thread? lol

Hi Faithfulservant,

Since Q and Juan don't seem to be around at the moment, I'll just put in a word. This thread is controversial, yet it also seems to belong more to the Christianity forum (so far) than any other place. I think the idea of stickying it is to denote it's somewhat special status in this respect, i.e., it explores issues that are not mainstream Christianity. I may not be completely correct in this, but that is my understanding.

lunamoth
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Yeah, you do understand! See, there are these two well defined camps: I'm not sure "literalist" is the right word, but maybe you know what I mean, and what I would call "debunkers". I think that both sides are making the mistake of trying to force rationality, or logical "systems" onto the mystical. The literalists continually have to come up with special theories for how Noah could have gotten all those animals into the ark and where all the water went after, or how the sun really, literally could have stood still, or why Matthew and Luke give Jesus two different grandpas. The debunkers really make the same mistake in that all they see is what they're looking for: inconsistencies and impossibilities.

The problem for me is that when I try to write what I'm thinking I have a hard time finding a language that doesn't wind up sounding like one or the other faction. But I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a detractor--even if I sound like one.:)

Chris

Well, we are in agreement on this point. And about golf.

luna
 
Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

China Cat Sunflower said:
I know that virgins don't conceive, people don't die and then come back to life, the sun can't stand still, mental illness doesn't come from evil spirits. I'm pretty sure that the gospels don't present history, and I know the OT doesn't either. I know that we are evolving as a species rather than devolving from some edenic state. Chris

No everyday virgins dont conceive, People dont die and then come back to life(believe thats only happened 2 times), the sun can't stand still(not without help), so what you are actually saying is miracles cant happen and God is limited in what he can or cant do.

If the gospels or NT or OT are historical we can agree to disagree.:)

Are we evolving as a species rather than devolving from some edenic state? Please show me how this is a better world we live in now days. Please any proof you can give me of that.
 
Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Dor said:
No everyday virgins dont conceive, People dont die and then come back to life(believe thats only happened 2 times), the sun can't stand still(not without help), so what you are actually saying is miracles cant happen and God is limited in what he can or cant do.

If the gospels or NT or OT are historical we can agree to disagree.:)

Are we evolving as a species rather than devolving from some edenic state? Please show me how this is a better world we live in now days. Please any proof you can give me of that.

A better world compared to what historical period?

Chris
 
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