I know this thread is dead but consider this cavalier. Since you are a christian like myself have you ever read Genisis? If you have then you would already know that in the beginning man (as in mankind) was perfect, but then came Samael (the devil) and because we have eaten from the tree of knowledge we have now been brought down to the Devil's level i.e. imperfection. vbmenu_register("postmenu_61503", true);
The presence of evil
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Azure24 said:
Yes, I've read Genesis. The stumbling block is that a perfect God's creation must also be perfect, and therefore impervious to evil.
The only explanations that so far make sense to me, are that evil is not really imperfection, one could even go so far as to say that evil is not really evil. Or that for perfection to actually be perfect it must contain at least the possibility of evil.
AletheiaRivers
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cavalier said:
My act of not liking Brussels sprouts is an imperfection?
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cavalier said:
You might be interested in reading about "the coincidence of opposites" from Nicholas of Cusa, a medieval scholar and Christian mystic. Google's got tons of info.
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saxa
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What does one mean by the word per-fect?
cavalier said:
Dondi
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I think it's quite simple, actually. We just don't know what is for our own good, in our limited capacity. We don't need to learn to be evil, for that comes naturally. But the operation of evil stems from the fact that what we think that what we do is beneficial for us may or may not be beneficial to others. Evil comes from our relationships with other people. We haven't learned to love others as we should, probably for the basic reason that we are selfish to varying degrees, dependent on our upbringing, our make-up, and our environment.
When you think about evil, you are really thinking about good, for you already have that in mind. To say that God isn't good, for He allows evil is missing the point about why He created us in the first place. He created us to choose. And that choice is between good and evil, constantly. But God supplies the Good for He is Perfect Love. How we respond to that Love will depend on the degree of evil present in our lives. Unfortunately for many people, God's Love seems out of reach, for they measure their concept of good and evil, not on God's perfection, but on their own concept of good, which is relative from the absolute, muddied by their experience, make-up, and environment.
What overcomes that evil tendancy is a return to the Source. For if we can only tap into Perfect Love, our lives will be adjusted and tweeked toward the Perfect. Once we know that secret, then we can progress. But because God has given us a choice, we must decide how good or evil we want to be.
When you think about evil, you are really thinking about good, for you already have that in mind. To say that God isn't good, for He allows evil is missing the point about why He created us in the first place. He created us to choose. And that choice is between good and evil, constantly. But God supplies the Good for He is Perfect Love. How we respond to that Love will depend on the degree of evil present in our lives. Unfortunately for many people, God's Love seems out of reach, for they measure their concept of good and evil, not on God's perfection, but on their own concept of good, which is relative from the absolute, muddied by their experience, make-up, and environment.
What overcomes that evil tendancy is a return to the Source. For if we can only tap into Perfect Love, our lives will be adjusted and tweeked toward the Perfect. Once we know that secret, then we can progress. But because God has given us a choice, we must decide how good or evil we want to be.
My point exactly cavalier Evil is not imperfection. But to practise it is, in my opinion in the beginning manking was in line with perfect but (a BIG but) perfection is not something you are just born being, to me you have to aquire(become) perfection. But the devil cut that short. Besides perfection is not something that could be made, perfection is something that just is i.e. God and God only otherwise we will all be God.cavalier said:
Dondi,
As you might remember, I'm not exactly convinced by the idea that God created us to choose, but let's just say you're right. If we have been given a choice, we must be given two or more things to choose between. Here, as you say, it's good and evil. So then, God has given us evil as a viable choice? Our perfect God has given us evil? Even if you take it another way and say that God did not give us evil, God just knew that we would be able to choose evil, then God still had to create us with the capacity for choosing evil.
I'm returned to my notion that either evil is not really evil, or that perfection (you could read God here) must contain at least the capacity for evil.
As you might remember, I'm not exactly convinced by the idea that God created us to choose, but let's just say you're right. If we have been given a choice, we must be given two or more things to choose between. Here, as you say, it's good and evil. So then, God has given us evil as a viable choice? Our perfect God has given us evil? Even if you take it another way and say that God did not give us evil, God just knew that we would be able to choose evil, then God still had to create us with the capacity for choosing evil.
I'm returned to my notion that either evil is not really evil, or that perfection (you could read God here) must contain at least the capacity for evil.
Your "But to practice it is.." line returns us to the question. Since we agree that people practice evil, we must also agree that there is imperfection. So then, If we are created by a perfect God, where does the imperfection come from?Azure24 said:
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Azure, it looks to me like you have flatly contradicted yourself here. Do I misunderstand? "perfection ... you have to acquire (become)" and then "perfection is not something that could be made, perfection is something that just is." I emphasize "just is," because I don't see how you can acquire something - "become it," in your own words - if it "just is." Hmmmm ....Azure24 said:
Besides, who says we won't all be God? This is exactly what the mystical path is about, not to mention the esoteric, or occult path!!! Naturally, there are those who cringe at the thought - the anthropomorphists, on one side, who cannot but imagine God in some (particular) form, but equally the mystics and occultists. The latter realize that in saying, "I shall become God," they are invoking the greatest of all temptations, pride, which says, "I am already (a) God." And yet, these two statements have NOTHING to do with one another ...
Namaskar,
taijasi
AletheiaRivers
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Maybe we are not "imperfect"? Maybe things are the way they have to be, metaphysically and physically, in this material manifestation?
Pondering out loud here ...
<Edit to add>
As I read what I wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm saying something like "We are being tested" or something like that. Just to clarify, I am not saying that. I'm speaking of ontology here.
Pondering out loud here ...
<Edit to add>
As I read what I wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm saying something like "We are being tested" or something like that. Just to clarify, I am not saying that. I'm speaking of ontology here.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
From simple logic. If there is but ONE Whom and Which is Perfection (deeper still, IS the ROOT of perfection itself!!!) ... then tell me, could such a Being/Entity/Power create a second perfect being - even just one such perfect being? Wouldn't that make TWO of these "ultimate God things?"cavalier said:
Okay, okay, hang on ... that perfect being makes a 2nd (or any number of) "perfect being," yet they are somehow lesser?
Oh really now? And how can THAT be? Wouldn't they then be less perfect, by very definition? If not, then on what basis are they NOT considered EQUAL beings to their Parent/Father/Source?
You see? God isn't illogical ... but most of the time, WE ARE. And we don't even really consider that this whole Creation/Emanation bit is difficult to figure out - from the outside looking in, so to speak.
But perhaps God DID create lesser but potentially perfect beings ... and that's US. And maybe the LAST distinguishing factor that keeps US from God is this question of scale - or ... the fact that we are younger emanations of God than ROOT God, for lack of better terminology (actually, Hinduism, Kabbalah, and Esotericism are FULL of useful terminology).
Suppose then, that the FINAL distinction to disappear, separating us from God, is that which has been likened to "the dewdrop slipping into the shining sea." This, every Mystic has experienced, at least to some extent. Every Occultist knows, as Science. And it is just a given, an accepted tenet, for many, many millions in this world. It seems to me that the anthropomorphist, in the end, will struggle nearly as hard as the atheist, maybe harder, because s/he cannot or will not admit of a fundamental IDENTITY (Base or Root Unity, behind all outer appearances) - WITH GOD, AS God.
The statement is not, "I am (already) God, IN REALIZATION or attainment" ... as I posted just 10 minutes ago. The statement, rather, is, "I am at heart, deep down ... a Spark of the Divine Flame - and THIS IS THE GUARANTEE and PROMISE (Covenant!!!) ... that I, too, like YOU, SHALL BECOME - GOD." Damn shame that people would rather argue that, then ask, HOW?
Cheers,
taijasi
taijasi said:From simple logic. If there is but ONE Whom and Which is Perfection (deeper still, IS the ROOT of perfection itself!!!) ... then tell me, could such a Being/Entity/Power create a second perfect being - even just one such perfect being? Wouldn't that make TWO of these "ultimate God things?"
Okay, okay, hang on ... that perfect being makes a 2nd (or any number of) "perfect being," yet they are somehow lesser?
Oh really now? And how can THAT be? Wouldn't they then be less perfect, by very definition? If not, then on what basis are they NOT considered EQUAL beings to their Parent/Father/Source?
Hey taijasi
I think you said this before, this time though I get what you're saying.
I'd like your opinion on this, if God can only create beings which are less than perfect, then for perfection to be fully perfect it must contain the possibility of imperfection.
If not, then I would have to conclude that it is not God who makes us less than perfect, but actually some higher/ over-riding force which, in the name of logic lessens us.
AletheiaRivers
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cavalier said:
If God is infinite, he MUST contain all things.IntegralScience.org said:
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I truly do not believe that there is any deceit, or anything less than Perfect Love and Compassion behind all of what we understand as manifestation/Creation. Still, we must consider that the Purpose for which all this has been made is something as yet beyond us, and to suggest that even our little planet exists simply so that Humanity (collectively) can exist - or even climb Jacob's Ladder to perfection ... is short-sighted. It would be like saying that the purpose of a tree is provide us with shade on a hot day!cavalier said:
But it's difficult not to be anthropocentric, and it's more than just a philosophical exercise to ask the questions we're asking, imho. But actually, I do think that there are a number of "lessenings" that occur just in order for our very Solar System, or physical world, to come into being ... and equally so for it to be "peopled," or filled with various lifeforms (of which Humanity is not the highest, or most spiritual). A lessening, which I perfer to understand as a willing (though necessary) Sacrifice on God's part - the making Sacred - of a Space which otherwise would be empty, or deVOID of Creation ... must first occur.
Thus I believe that God makes one Sacrifice in order just to "prepare the field," so to speak. But an even greater Sacrifice, in some ways, is required, in order to give rise to our Individualized existence(s), as "Children of the Most High." To put this into the terms we're considering, God creates us as imperfect beings - so distinguished or identified precisely due to the fact that He/It has temporarily separated us from Himself ... NOT in essence, or at Heart (in HIS Heart), but rather, insomuch as FROM the immediately-prior state of PERFECT and TOTAL Unity (IDENTITY) with Him, we are brought into a state of Individual Existence.
We are still utterly dependent upon Deity for our very Being (at NO POINT does this really every change!) ... but temporily, we will be submitted to the worlds of Generation - of Being through Becoming (here we get into the Law of Love, but also of the "Cycles of Necessity," to which even God Himself is subject, on a higher turn of the spiral!). This is the distinction between the "Self-Born" Gods ... and those, such as ourselves, who are Gods-in-the-making. We contain the seed of Perfection (of God Himself, or Itself), but we must PLANT it, water it, nurture it, carefully cultivate it, and weed it, eventually, such that it can become that which is intended.
Where and what is evil? It is the inherent potential for struggle, within us, which is always present from the very first days of our pilgrimage (in lesser, or sub-human kingdoms) ... but which does not provide any real resistance, save through the elements of the world around us - to which we are utterly subject for the earliest parts of our journey. Yet even animals know to talk shelter from the storm. Do they "think" the storm - the lightning, tornado and hurricane - is "evil?" Maybe, but NOT as we do ... only in a relative sense. See?
Then WE come along (individualized FROM animals, but not "evolved" in the Darwinian sense). We incarnate in a one-to-one ratio, one soul, one form ... versus the one soul, MANY forms of the animal kingdom (watch a flock of birds for this observation). We begin to deal with karma on a one-to-one basis. We sow, we reap, we steal, we must learn the consequence - WHY this wrong. Karma is how God teaches us, and as we LEARN to understand it, and to get over the mistaken notion that ANYONE punishes or rewards us SAVE for OURSELVES ... then we begin to see the Beauty, the Harmony, the DIVINE PERFECTION of God's Plan that actually IS manifest ... right here, right now, all around us.
Christ tried to teach us this. I just WISH folks would "get it!"
What ELSE do we suppose He meant when He spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven being right here, within us even, for those who could see and hear? It had NOTHING to do with "being saved," except for being saved from our own ignorance - ignorance NOT in a pejorative sense, or really even negative, surely not "evil." God didn't start that business, WE did, with our misunderstandings. It has NOTHING to do with an imaginary Adam ... Adam Kadmon is simply the prototypical man, our earliest ancestors, who weren't even physically manifest ... they were subtle (astral, etheric), still learning to exist within the worlds of form, or dense matter, and hence very clumsy, learning the hard way, and YES, sometimes committing incredible acts of what WE would call "sin" (mating with huge, "she-animals" as it's put, and spawning a race of "dumb giants" - the stupid aliens, the nephilim, good GRIEF what a mess we've made of these teachings). Anyway, it's not that we weren't responsible a million years ago, it's just that we weren't exactly Einsteins, so how were we going to offset the burden of these tremendous acts of negative karma? Karma doesn't say, "Oh, okay, let's just overlook this," or "Oh, you PRAYED! Let's forget it."
But God IS merciful, just, understanding, Loving, and so on. So the agents of Karma (Lipika, or Devarajas on Earth) make considerable adjustments, and they work with us, like counselors kinda. And the farther we advance on the spiritual path, the more we learn - how to balance and offset our Karma, how to do in ONE lifetime what amounts to atoning for FIFTY lifetimes of sin, murder, etc. The Law MUST be balanced, but this is not a matter of punishment (or rewared). SIghhhhhh .... It's just the way things are!!! This is the ONLY Justice that could EVER exist, if we really think about it.
And Perfection? Well, it's relative, but it can and does come to those who apply themselves, and walk the Path to it's very most advanced stages, for this PLanet. That begins our Cosmic Journey, as many have attested, and do attest. It does not END anything, really, except that eventually we must say goodbye to the suffering and the woe of this world - and to its many billions (60, not 6) of human inhabitants, mostly still suffering due to the ignorance that conditions us early on. But we're not exactly infants - we are a MATURING Humanity, and that's where the struggles come in. It's our adolescent years, and FAR WORSE STILL, we're facing Puberty, and the SEVERE crises of young adulthood. Why is this any real surprise? That we're suffering so, I mean?
No one is mad or angry, no one is punishing us. Only WE are making things rough, because like many teens (young Humanitys), we can be hostile, stubborn, and so forth. This isn't a metaphor, it's how things are!
But it isn't the end of the world, any more than the rebellious teen is at the end of his days. Evil, yes, definitely involved, plenty of ontological and metaphysical considerations ... but I think the basics matter more than jumping into all that.
Ah well, that's just how I see it ...
Namaskar,
taijasi
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Thanks, Cavalier. Probably the soul of an old Neo-Platonic or even Pythagorean coming through ...cavalier said:
cheers,
taijasi
AletheiaRivers said:
I disagree. God does not contain the absense of anything. Therefore the absense of "good" is not possible for God. The Laws of physics make this quite clear. (a clue to the design of God?...).
The absense of things in "created beings" however is possible (hence imperfection). God lacks nothing. That which is created lacks...
Even man in his lamment cries out for the "lack" within his soul...it is in our prose and poetry, it is in our marriages, and relationships. It is in our very fibers of existence. We acknowledge that we "lack" something. But here comes God, who states "I lack nothing".
We state often enough "I am cold". When in reality what we are stating is "I lack heat"...We say "I am sick" when in reality we mean "I lack full health". We say "I am dying", when in reality we mean "I lack life, it is draining away".
Evil, is the lack of good (or the lack of God).
my thoughts
v/r
Q
AletheiaRivers
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I appreciate your thoughts Q.
So God is not infinite?
So God is not infinite?