AletheiaRivers
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Wow. That gave me the chills. Awesome.wil said:
just pondering
- Thread starter christine.P
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OK-that Twain thing was just a moment of wise---ness on my part-guess because, though I've certainly pondered these notions a time or two in my life, frankly I think religious systems that tend to emphasize the there & then -e.g. focussing on the hereafter whatever it might be-as opposed to the here & now-inadvertently induce their followers to distance themselves from the very heart of what they seek beating in their very bosoms in each and every moment. One of the things I am attracted to as re Zen is that very orientation. Heck, even those Buddhists at the Buddhist forum I frequent who like to continually exhort their fellow Buddhists to get with the program or they will be reborn as a pig or whatever, are sooooo missing their own point IMO and I find it amusing that some of these same folk would deride Christians in part for those sects which have a "fire and brimstone" orientation.
"For twenty years I've sought the Other.
Now letting go, I fly out of the pit.
What use oneness of mind and body?
These days I only sing la-la-la." Keso Shogaku, 15th c.e.
Have a good one, earl
"For twenty years I've sought the Other.
Now letting go, I fly out of the pit.
What use oneness of mind and body?
These days I only sing la-la-la." Keso Shogaku, 15th c.e.
Have a good one, earl
AletheiaRivers
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You know, it's dawned on me as I've read your posts in this thread over again that I should ask you what your view of heaven is.cavalier said:
I've been responding to you assuming that you have the "standard Christian" view of heaven, with people, maybe a city with pearly gates.
And everybody up there, talking, interacting, worshipping God, etc ...What is your view?
flowperson
Oannes
I'm with wil on this one. Groovin' on my fave tunes and sliding around in the ethers among the neutrinos and such is just too delicious a picture for me to pass up.
But like in that film, What Dreams May Come, heaven and the other place are possibly mixed together wherever we end up spiritually. Which means that the confusion in the hereafter may be still there, but different to and for each depending upon our works upon earth. Defending Your Life, by Albert Brooks and with Meryl Streep, is another film that does such a good job of fantasizing about all this in ways that we might readily identify with.
flow....
But like in that film, What Dreams May Come, heaven and the other place are possibly mixed together wherever we end up spiritually. Which means that the confusion in the hereafter may be still there, but different to and for each depending upon our works upon earth. Defending Your Life, by Albert Brooks and with Meryl Streep, is another film that does such a good job of fantasizing about all this in ways that we might readily identify with.
flow....
It's certainly not that, but the fact that you were mistaken is probably due to the way in which I have posted, so no worries.AletheiaRivers said:You know, it's dawned on me as I've read your posts in this thread over again that I should ask you what your view of heaven is.
I've been responding to you assuming that you have the "standard Christian" view of heaven, with people, maybe a city with pearly gates.
What is your view?
In truth, I'm not altogether sure. I think that praising God must be a part of it, but as to the manner of that praise....? maybe it is millions and millions of souls united in singing "heavenly" songs, I also have the notion that it's like a drop of water slipping into an ocean, where you would no longer be just a drop of water, but also an inseperable part of everything, at once in touch with the whole and with each part.
Perhaps this doesn't need to be at odds with the "heavenly songs" idea.
Perhaps this drop of water thing doesn't happen, but has always been, and we just realise it.
In any event, I don't see where choice, or the need for a point to existence, comes into it.
earl said:hey Cavalier-allow me to add one of my favorite Rumi quotes:
"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in the grass
the world is too full to talk about."
AletheiaRivers
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cavalier said:
That'll teach me to play devil's advocate!
Actually, I was only saying what I was saying about the "choice" thing because I thought you had a more, ummm, stereotypical view of heaven or of "life forever on a paradise earth." (That last part is the ex-JW coming out in me.)
My view of "heaven" does lean towards the non-dual, actually. Hehehe.
cavalier said:
Actually, I believe we have proof of "free will" in heaven, if the recordings of fallen angels have any real merit. I think the question should be, with free will and being in heaven (which is perfect), why would we choose other than remaining there? One might say the angels chose other, but then the angels were not redeemed like man is. In other words, those redeemed...wouldn't they enter Heaven with a grateful heart? And if so, why would they want to leave, after experiencing first hand, less than heaven during their lives?
just a thought
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Hadn't thought of that.Quahom1 said:
The following are just some rough thoughts, I would be very interested in your opinion of them, it's more than possible they're complete nonsense.
The "recordings" could have merit and yet not be literal, like the creation accounts.
The recordings are literal, but are not an example of free will. Perhaps though, this isn't the right thread for opening that can of predestined worms.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Perhaps we should ask ourselves, why did we leave Heaven in the first place? There are those who believe that we came forth, as did Deity (on a far higher turn of the spiral), to garner experience in the lower worlds - at the instruction of God, not despite it. What purpose Deity might have for being here, we may only speculate, but we may safely assume that to provide us a field of experience is only part of it.
Recall - "In Him we live, and move, and have our being."
Namaskar,
taijasi
Recall - "In Him we live, and move, and have our being."
Namaskar,
taijasi
cavalier said:
Well, some argue that stories like the creaton accounts are literal, just not the way they were written (almost as if summarized). In otherwords we're missing alot of information that used to be there, or that simply wasn't included. Likewise the stories of the Angels could be summarized, almost a foot note in the bigger concern of things.
Like God is telling us, "this book as about God and Man, not Angels...focus on the main theme."
In the second part of your question, the only answer I can give on this, is in the Bible and is quite specific. They "rebelled". That strongly implies "free will". What is the first thing we call a child of ours that refuses to listen to us? Willful, strong willed, rebellious.
Even though we are in charge of them, they still disobey. These are literal observations that happen everyday, but do we say children do not have free will? When I was a child my parents would often say "You are to be seen and not heard". That sat so wrong with me, that it gave me fuel to just get into more trouble.
Hope that helps.
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Some wise soul said long ago-don't remember who-that relative to metaphysical notions, it's psychospiritually better to have uplifting, grand stories or no stories. The notion you give here Andrew is a bit grander than some-one I associate with New Age-but frankly it's never made anymore sense to me that the rather fundamentalist notion of a Deity that creates souls/humans, sets them loose on the world to see if they'll give Jesus and Him/Her/IT their due, and, if not, scratch 1 more soul. The problem that comes in with all "Creation" myths that anthropomorphize a Divine Being is just that-the tendency to project all the variant human qualities, purposes, etc. onto that. If one is a theist that purports that God is in total unqualifiable, unlimitable, then trying to fit notions of God into the confining form of "a Being" is going to create all sorts of difficulties. To envision a Divine "Being" leads to such anthropomorphizing vs. say perhaps envisioning a "Divine Being" in the sense of the very essence and "field" of being-non-being itself.taijasi said:Perhaps we should ask ourselves, why did we leave Heaven in the first place? There are those who believe that we came forth, as did Deity (on a far higher turn of the spiral), to garner experience in the lower worlds - at the instruction of God, not despite it. What purpose Deity might have for being here, we may only speculate, but we may safely assume that to provide us a field of experience is only part of it.
Recall - "In Him we live, and move, and have our being."
Namaskar,
taijasi
In the realm of stories or myths-and it is certainly a human thing to do to attempt to pin down Mystery-I also believe the old adage, "we become what we worship." So, for e.g., if we are a Christian whose notions of Reality include the traditional/fundamentalist notions of Jesus/God, we are feeding that portion of us and the world that functions out of fear, anger, guilt, etc. If I were to want to entertain a particularly Christian point of view, one of the Jesus images that seems uplifting to me is the one I always remember seeing as a kid: the picture of him holding a lamb on his shoulders with sheep about him-Jesus the shepherd. Well what about gentle shepherds-they exist to protect the sheep from straying off to be devoured by wolves and to help them find their way home at night. If the Divine represents our deepest essence-our true Home-than the world's shepherds are their to serve that purpose, to remind us how to find our "way back home." While there are alot of scary, nasty "wolves" out there in the sense of things and events, the biggest wolves are always going to be what resides within each of us-the "passions" to use the term favored by the early Christian monks known as the "desert fathers." But I digress-so Andrew if we're throwing out grand notions of why we're here, what about the Judaic notion of Tikkun Olan-repair of the world-that's one I like.
So what's my ramble about? It's simply to encourage you all to either go with "no story" and allow the world and your ongoing journey of discovery of who/what the essence of you and Life is to guide you or to go with a sufficiently large, uplifting story that allows you the space to move about enlarging your sense of connection to Life and beyond. have a good one, earl
Yeah, ok.Quahom1 said:
I would agree, thanks for reminding me.Quahom1 said:
I maintain that that "free will" could be illusory.Quahom1 said:
Though children have a will which is free (to a greater or lesser extent) from their human fathers, this does mean that we necessarily have a will free from our heavenly father.Quahom1 said:
I know that you are an advocate of free-will and so I know you will not agree with my views, but I ask only this, are the above things possible?
cavalier said:
You asked a question. I answered it. It was a simple question (unlike what you posted before). I agreed all things are possible. Are you looking for a come back, or a debate? If so state so...
don't get mad. I don't know what you are asking unless you are specific.
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