Is Islam actually peaceful?

[Quahom1]

George Bush is losing his war on terror. 5 years after 911 there is more fear, distrust, hatred, and suspicion. The methods we are using do not work and fundamentalism is going from strength to strength.

You're a military man Q, so maybe you can answer me this question. When we hear military people talking about winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, is this just something to think about, or something to put into action?

Is there? Or is what you see, the knuckling down to a long drawn out "war" just like the world has been told would happen, from day one, and the "fact" that the US isn't tucking tail and running? I know that really irritates some in the world. It always has...

As for winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, well that is a proven process, that can be seen in the rebuild and retooling and dignity restoring efforts that went on in post war Germany, Japan, Korea, France, Italy...the disdain you see today, is that of a generation, that was not born during that time, but the elders remember.

v/r

Q

Oh, an interesting side note. Mr. Bush's approval rating in the US has climbed 15 percent in the past few weeks, to 49 percent, and shows no sign of slowing in its assent...wonder why.

 

[cavalier]

Is there? Or is what you see, the knuckling down to a long drawn out "war" just like the world has been told would happen, from day one, and the "fact" that the US isn't tucking tail and running? I know that really irritates some in the world. It always has...

A few things,
Firstly, I have got nothing against America. I am, and have written this before, a big fan of your great country.

You say America isn't tucking tail and running, ok but the truth is that you never really came out barking and gnashing your teeth. The numbers of troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq were inadequate and were never going to able to get the job done quickly, if at all.

In terms of fighting terror what has been done, terrorism has now taken hold of Iraq, the region has been destabalised, more and more moderate Muslims are questioning the the actions of the US, are losing patience with the US. Support for radicalism appears to be on the increase.
There is more fear in the world now than there was in the months following 911.

As for winning the hearts and minds of the regular civilians, well that is a proven process, that can be seen in the rebuild and retooling and dignity restoring efforts that went on in post war Germany, Japan, Korea, France, Italy...the disdain you see today, is that of a generation, that was not born during that time, but the elders remember.

Exactly, it was a differnent time, this generation does not remember it, and neither can this generation see such efforts being made today.


You have sidestepped many of the questions I raised and simply played the age card. No doubt if I was an American you would have insinuated that I simply wasn't patriotic enough.


In another post you wrote

Strange, the "fasciasts" of Germany had the exact same type of fear control over the general populace in the 1930s and 40s. History repeats itself while the world tries to placate those incapable of being placated...because it does not agree with their ultimate agenda.

Yes, of course there are those who are implacable, but they're not the people we should be talking about. Neither should we really be talking about placation.
You wrote earlier of the 500,000 Muslim Arab Americans, and the many other non Arab Muslim Americans and said that these people will have to decide for themselves, allegiances will have to be made. What you propose is an America whose civilians' equality will be decided on religious lines. Members of a certain religion having to stand up and pledge an extra oath of allegiance.
This is not about placation, it is about treating people as equal, it is about viewing someone as innocent until proven guilty. Aren't those two things guaranteed under your constitution?
Doing things your way will simply fan the fires of radicalism by marginalising ordinary citizens.

 

[Quahom1]

A few things,
Firstly, I have got nothing against America. I am, and have written this before, a big fan of your great country.

You say America isn't tucking tail and running, ok but the truth is that you never really came out barking and gnashing your teeth. The numbers of troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq were inadequate and were never going to able to get the job done quickly, if at all.

In terms of fighting terror what has been done, terrorism has now taken hold of Iraq, the region has been destabalised, more and more moderate Muslims are questioning the the actions of the US, are losing patience with the US. Support for radicalism appears to be on the increase.
There is more fear in the world now than there was in the months following 911.




Exactly, it was a differnent time, this generation does not remember it, and neither can this generation see such efforts being made today.


You have sidestepped many of the questions I raised and simply played the age card. No doubt if I was an American you would have insinuated that I simply wasn't patriotic enough.


In another post you wrote

Yes, of course there are those who are implacable, but they're not the people we should be talking about. Neither should we really be talking about placation.
You wrote earlier of the 500,000 Muslim Arab Americans, and the many other non Arab Muslim Americans and said that these people will have to decide for themselves, allegiances will have to be made. What you propose is an America whose civilians' equality will be decided on religious lines. Members of a certain religion having to stand up and pledge an extra oath of allegiance.
This is not about placation, it is about treating people as equal, it is about viewing someone as innocent until proven guilty. Aren't those two things guaranteed under your constitution?
Doing things your way will simply fan the fires of radicalism by marginalising ordinary citizens.

I forgot you aren't American.

I agree, we didn't send in enough troops.

I did not believe I side stepped anything.

I grew up in an Arabic neighborhood for 20 years. I watched the attitudes change over the past 40 years, as new immigrants come into the states and settle, begin families and become "citizens". Well, some of them are not, and have no intention of ever doing so. The contempt of some is so thick and choking... They openly express delight in the day that Islam destroys the Americans they live among, so they can take over...

There is a difference between the original immigrants and the latest generation... day and night.

v/r

Q

 

[cyberpi]

lol, the only "dogs" I see in America are ones that pet owners cherish (for the most part). The rest are HUMAN BEINGS, that you apparently have "downgraded".

If you can't see the animal in your mind, then who is the one who is blind? I see the one in mine.

We are at war. Plain and simple. The enemy identify themselves as whatever, but a grenade knows no boundaries. They have ordered our deaths (collectively), regardless of who they are. When an enemy wishes your death, best take heed of that wish, and take cover, then go find the enemy and neutralise it, before it neutralises you.

That, my friend is the law of the jungle. And that is what this is becoming, in case you haven't been keeping up with the news.

You don't see it? Is jungle law just human nature?

As a former US Marine (Devil Dog, Jarhead, etc...) who served to help oust Saddam from Kuwait, and is not afraid of judging or condemning: Quahom1, I consider the attitude you present to BE THE ENEMY. I dislike seeing that in my country, or anywhere. You are being an aide to extremists both at home and abroad. Why? Generalizing 'we', 'enemy', 'them', 'our' is a feature of extremism or someone who does not understand democracy... you are trying to speak for people you don't even know. Why shouldn't an extremist point to ANY minority viewpoint in the USA and generalize to call the USA the enemy for it? Because that is what you just did. That is what OBL did. I watch plural pronouns carefully because they imply a relationship that is either real or imaginary. The 'WE' from a person describing Islam is imaginary, unless he is quoting the Qur'an, and it is identical to the way you used 'WE'. The 'THEM' from OBL is imaginary, and is identical to the way you describe 'THEM'. The Qur'an is clear that people stand as individuals before God (swt) for judgement, without even a single witness. So it is not 'WE', 'US', or 'THEM'... people are individuals before God (swt). It is the same in a democracy. I don't speak for you, your family, or your country, so why do you try to speak for mine? You have a vote, I have a vote. In fact I think the USA needs to become more democratic. Individuals want to have more voice... with the improved communication technology that is now possible. But I don't mean a blog, I mean nationwide votes on bills. A nation-wide vote for when to go to war. There is no 'WE' in my family until 'WE' take a vote... then there is a relationship. Then and only then can you comment about 'OUR' decision. Otherwise you are generalizing from your imagination... or worse the imagination of a media writer, and that is a dangerous thing.

 

[Quahom1]

If you can't see the animal in your mind, then who is the one who is blind? I see the one in mine.


You don't see it? Is jungle law just human nature?

As a former US Marine (Devil Dog, Jarhead, etc...) who served to help oust Saddam from Kuwait, and is not afraid of judging or condemning: Quahom1, I consider the attitude you present to BE THE ENEMY. I dislike seeing that in my country. You are being an aide to extremists both at home and abroad. Why? Generalizing 'we', 'enemy', 'them', 'our' is a feature of extremism or someone who does not understand democracy... you are trying to speak for people you don't even know. Why shouldn't an extremist point to ANY minority viewpoint in the USA and generalize to call the USA the enemy for it? Because that is what you just did. That is what OBL did. I watch plural pronouns carefully because they imply a relationship that is either real or imaginary. The 'WE' from a person describing Islam is imaginary, unless he is quoting the Qur'an, and it is identical to the way you used 'WE'. The 'THEM' from OBL is imaginary, and is identical to the way you describe 'THEM'. The Qur'an is clear that people stand as individuals before God (swt) for judgement, without even a single witness. So it is not 'WE', 'US', or 'THEM'... people are individuals before God (swt). It is the same in a democracy. I don't speak for you, your family, or your country, so why do you try to speak for mine? You have vote, I have a vote. There is no 'WE' in my family until 'WE' take a vote... then there is a relationship. Then and only then can you comment about 'OUR' decision. Otherwise you are generalizing from your imagination... or worse the imagination of a media writer, and that is a dangerous thing.

That, is your opinion, and not one I will lose any sleep over...not while my own are over there, while you trash everything they believe in and serve for...

That is the wonder of a free society. You can cast stones, and I can duck and keep moving forward...

Thank you for your service, now stay the hell out of my way while I do mine...

I don't agree with your take on things, and I suspect I never will. Clear enough for you Marine?

 

[cyberpi]

That, is your opinion, and not one I will lose any sleep over...not while my own are over there, while you trash everything they believe in and serve for...

That is the wonder of a free society. You can cast stones, and I can duck and keep moving forward...

Thank you for your service, now stay the hell out of my way while I do mine...

I don't agree with your take on things, and I suspect I never will. Clear enough for you Marine?

Neither does any American have to accept your viewpoint. clear enough?

 

[Quahom1]

Neither does any American have to accept your viewpoint. clear enough?

Yeah, that is what stinks about the whole thing. I still have to carry out orders to watch over the ungrateful...but am expected to keep my mouth shut by the same...fat chance. Your sensibilities are none of my concern...just your life and welfare.

Take care "Marine"...

Q

 

[cyberpi]

Yeah, that is what stinks about the whole thing. I still have to carry out orders to watch over the ungrateful...but am expected to keep my mouth shut by the same...fat chance. Your sensibilities are none of my concern...just your life and welfare.

Take care "Marine"...

Q

Are you trying to claim that my taxpayer money is paying for you to post here all day long? That concerns me, but is it true? Even the Navy Chaplains I knew would not spend that much time here instead of tending to the needs of their unit. When I was active duty outside the USA our company barely had time to take showers. So whats your story?

If anyone wants to really slay their enemy, here is how to do it: You walk right up to them and stare them in the eyes, and you faithfully ask... "Is there anything I can do for you? May I help you with anything?" That is called trying to place Faith. Alternatively you can seek Faith with, "Can you help me with something?" Then the person has a choice... and remember, God (swt) is watching. But you have to carry through. If it is something against your ideals then you need to have a rebuttal ready. You negotiate... "Ok, I am going to do this deed for you just for good Faith." Then without conditions you ask, "Could you do this for me?" Again, remember God (swt) is watching. Worst case you each shed some ignorance and learn something about the alledged enemy. In warfare that is actually a goal. You do not have to give up your ideals, but you might have to learn something new. Then return the favor... you will get to teach something about yourself.

Just think if America called for an Iraqi national vote, simply asking Iraqis if the USA should leave now. If the vote returns YES, then the USA says, "Good luck" and gets out gracefully. If the vote is NO, then the USA sticks around. Either way it would defuse the world condemnation and promote democracy at the same time. The way to promote democracy is via Faith, because that is its foundation. Think about it.

I think countries should launch Faith missiles at each other in their negotiations. Governments, terrorist organizations, or any group of people should demand monitored votes from the people of other countries. For example country A says, "Ok 'WE' will do something for country B per a UN monitored vote by the people of that country." Then publish the results and follow through. In this way the moral high ground, the legitimacy, the responsibility is obtained from the people via their vote. It is called Faith and that is a powerful way to promote democracy. It requires communication, and it makes people responsible. But, it does require doing good deeds. Only, the USA is barely democratic and much of the world knows this. I think it is a true statement the US government has ostricized many Americans in the latest years.

In the USA it is depressing that a team of a couple of negotiators goes to another country and nobody in the public gets a vote on the details. Some world trade deal is made and the people do not get to say YES or NO to it. That is not democracy... it is oppression. People and companies hang from it. Likewise requiring that I support your viewpoint Quahom1 in the name of patriotism is called oppression. It is not democracy. It is a technique that Saddam used on his military. The only saving grace for the USA is that most every other country has the same problem... a few brains in a government run the whole show. That is why I believe in Matthew 23:23 it says a weighty matter of LAW is Faith. That means Faith between people. Law without Faith is oppression.

 

[cavalier]

I forgot you aren't American.

I agree, we didn't send in enough troops.

I did not believe I side stepped anything.

I grew up in an Arabic neighborhood for 20 years. I watched the attitudes change over the past 40 years, as new immigrants come into the states and settle, begin families and become "citizens". Well, some of them are not, and have no intention of ever doing so. The contempt of some is so thick and choking... They openly express delight in the day that Islam destroys the Americans they live among, so they can take over...

There is a difference between the original immigrants and the latest generation... day and night.

v/r

Q

Ok, I cannot, and will not try to negate your experiences.
I've just highlighted some words that I think are very important.

Living in Taiwan, I am now an ethnic minority. More and more Taiwanese are viewing foreigners with mistrust, and even sometimes with dislike. There are good reasons why this is happening. Many foreigners (Americans, Canadians, Brits, South Africans, Austrlians) do not respect this country or its people. Many foreigners are openly rude and disrespectful in shops and restaurants. Only a tiny fraction bother to learn Chinese, a lot of the rest get angry with Taiwanese people whose English is not good enough to be able to communicate quickly and easily. Many foreign guys treat the women here like ****. It's disgusting.
So I understand why many Taiwanese view foreigners with mistrust, I will understand if/when that mistrust turns into an open dislike. I understand, but it isn't fair. It's not fair to me or to the majority of foreigners here who are respectful.
The thing is that I know good foreigners who, having been treated badly by some Taiwanese people, are now hostile in return. I understand this too, because sometimes I feel angry about being unfairly viewed with mistrust and dislike. I love this country and do not support the actions of my impolite countrymen.


I hope all that makes sense.

 

[Quahom1]

Are you trying to claim that my taxpayer money is paying for you to post here all day long? That concerns me, but is it true? Even the Navy Chaplains I knew would not spend that much time here instead of tending to the needs of their unit. When I was active duty outside the USA our company barely had time to take showers. So whats your story?

You know the rules. After 60 days leave acrued on the books, anything after 1 October is lost (use it or lose it). Since I already sold back the maximum of 60 days allowed, and have lost an additional 60 days because of the rules, I don't let my leave go past the 60 day mark any more.

So, in effect, you haven't had to pay for six years of my allowed annual leave. And since my work days can be nights as well, and my average work week is about 75 hours (and I am a salary paid type), you get 35 hours a week more out me with your tax dollars, than you have to pay for.

Finally, while I'm out to sea for 90 days at a shot, and have done such for eight years, and the work day on a ship is 12 on 12 off, with half a day Sunday as holiday routine, you get 40 extra hours a week from me for your hard earned tax dollars.

It could also mean we are more efficient... or capable of multitasking, or I'm damn good at what I do, thus find time. In any event, government property is not used to log in here.

As for the rest of your post, we've been there, done that, and still are, whether you choose to see it or not. We have been told by the duly elected government of Iraq to "stick around". Your faith in other countries rallying to help, is sorely challanged by the fact that they have the opportunity right this moment to do exactly that, both in Lebanon, Afghanistan, without interference from the US, but under the banner of NATO and/or the UN, and most do not want to step up to the plate. Those that have such as Canada, Poland, Italy, also are frustrated with the constant harassement they get from ambushes, snipers, suicide bombers and IEDs, the insurgents keep nailing them with, even when they are in the midst of handing out school books, toiletries and candy to children... They can barely muster a peace keeping force of 2000, let alone 15,000 that are needed and have been specifically asked for by the respective governments of the afore mentioned countries. And the same culptrit suspected of direct invovlement in the food for oil scandal has now declared that all humanitarian/charity aid, instead of being directed by the individual organisations, will now conduct all business through one body, overseen by the same person...Annan...

I really don't care whether you support anything. That is your right, which I still defend. The reality is we are at war. The enemy has no boundaries, but does have a common ideology, one that demands everyone not with them be elliminated or subjugated (including you).

By the way, when Katrina hit, followed by Irene...my work hours went to 100 a week, and took me away from home for several months...

We didn't do much there either, just rescued 35,000 people in three weeks, not bad for a group of loafers 3000 strong...

When I head back to the Middle East after Christmas, is there anyone you want me to say hi to for you?

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Ok, I cannot, and will not try to negate your experiences.
I've just highlighted some words that I think are very important.

Living in Taiwan, I am now an ethnic minority. More and more Taiwanese are viewing foreigners with mistrust, and even sometimes with dislike. There are good reasons why this is happening. Many foreigners (Americans, Canadians, Brits, South Africans, Austrlians) do not respect this country or its people. Many foreigners are openly rude and disrespectful in shops and restaurants. Only a tiny fraction bother to learn Chinese, a lot of the rest get angry with Taiwanese people whose English is not good enough to be able to communicate quickly and easily. Many foreign guys treat the women here like ****. It's disgusting.
So I understand why many Taiwanese view foreigners with mistrust, I will understand if/when that mistrust turns into an open dislike. I understand, but it isn't fair. It's not fair to me or to the majority of foreigners here who are respectful.
The thing is that I know good foreigners who, having been treated badly by some Taiwanese people, are now hostile in return. I understand this too, because sometimes I feel angry about being unfairly viewed with mistrust and dislike. I love this country and do not support the actions of my impolite countrymen.


I hope all that makes sense.

For certain. I wouldn't either.

 

[The Lord]

I...Strange, the "fasciasts" of Germany had the exact same type of fear control over the general populace in the 1930s and 40s. History repeats itself while the world tries to placate those incapable of being placated...because it does not agree with their ultimate agenda.

Funny enough that you bring this up. Is this Nazi contol over the sheep, I mean the masses, not what we have now in the general West, and in the US in particular? It seems that the history does repeat itself alright, literally in this case. He who lives in a house of glass...

 

[The Lord]

That, is your opinion, and not one I will lose any sleep over...

This is a standard response in many of your posts. It seems that you do not lose sleep over much! If I may ask, are you here to discuss issues, to teach and to learn, if any, or to preach to the infidels?

One last thing, just to clear things up: contrary to your standard assumptions in responding to my posts, I am American and I am not a Muslim. And no, I am not an Arab immigrant either.

 

[Quahom1]

Funny enough that you bring this up. Is this Nazi contol over the sheep, I mean the masses, not what we have now in the general West, and in the US in particular? It seems that the history does repeat itself alright, literally in this case. He who lives in a house of glass...

Naw, not even close.

 

[Quahom1]

This is a standard response in many of your posts. It seems that you do not lose sleep over much! If I may ask, are you here to discuss issues, to teach and to learn, if any, or to preach to the infidels?

One last thing, just to clear things up: contrary to your standard assumptions in responding to my posts, I am American and I am not a Muslim. And no, I am not an Arab immigrant either.

Why bother with someone with a chip on the shoulder the size of Manhattan, plus more knowledge on everything and everyone and how everything works or is a conspiracy or what ever, than all of us combined (lol).

I don't preach, nor am I concerned about not meeting your sensibilities, expectations, or trying to calm your perceived indignation.

v/r

Q

 

[Terrence]

You know what? I could say that Islam is not a religon of peace, but I'm not sure that would be right. I feel the problem isnt so much the religon as it is the people. Religions in and of itself isnt bad, but people by nature, are. G.K. Chesterton once said in a responce to Time magazine's question, "what is wrong with the world," said the following:

"Dir Sir,
In responce to your question 'what is wrong with the world.'
I am.
Yours Truely,
G.K. Chesterton"

Did you get that? Chesterton, as a Christian, had the understanding that the world does not have a hunger problem or pollution problem or money problem or war problem or disease problem, but instead a people problem. People are whats wrong with the world. I am the problem, you are, and on and on. The indwelling sin in us makes us the problem Read romands 3 and Jesus' words..."There is NONE Good, no not one!" The most peaceful people on this planet are those fortunate sinners who have come to recornize the evil in them and have come to Christ whereby He may change them into His own image (like mr. Smith in the matrix movies).

 

[Quahom1]

You know what? I could say that Islam is not a religon of peace, but I'm not sure that would be right. I feel the problem isnt so much the religon as it is the people. Religions in and of itself isnt bad, but people by nature, are. G.K. Chesterton once said in a responce to Time magazine's question, "what is wrong with the world," said the following:

"Dir Sir,
In responce to your question 'what is wrong with the world.'
I am.
Yours Truely,
G.K. Chesterton"

Did you get that? Chesterton, as a Christian, had the understanding that the world does not have a hunger problem or pollution problem or money problem or war problem or disease problem, but instead a people problem. People are whats wrong with the world. I am the problem, you are, and on and on. The indwelling sin in us makes us the problem Read romands 3 and Jesus' words..."There is NONE Good, no not one!" The most peaceful people on this planet are those fortunate sinners who have come to recornize the evil in them and have come to Christ whereby He may change them into His own image (like mr. Smith in the matrix movies).

Indeed, 90% of the world's problems and catastrophes are generated by man.

99% of that is generated by less than 5% of man.

The problem is the remaining populace simply go with the flow, or don't want to make waves, or are afraid to stand up, to "all malevolent" instigation. That applies to whether it is at home, or abroad.

v/r

Q

 

[cavalier]

Over the issue of control, ok modern western society is different to Nazi Germany, but that does not mean we are not controlled.

Instead of control through fear, we are now controlled through ease.
The tools of our control are materialism, consumerism, super-sized meals, Hollywood, SUV's..

Who wants to go out and fight for something when it will mean getting up from your comfy sofa and turning off your TV?

We are controlled, we do "go with the flow" because it's just so damn easy.

 

[Quahom1]

Over the issue of control, ok modern western society is different to Nazi Germany, but that does not mean we are not controlled.

Instead of control through fear, we are now controlled through ease.
The tools of our control are materialism, consumerism, super-sized meals, Hollywood, SUV's..

Who wants to go out and fight for something when it will mean getting up from your comfy sofa and turning off your TV?

We are controlled, we do "go with the flow" because it's just so damn easy.

Maybe, just maybe, you aught to come to the states for awhile...before you judge... I mean now, not a few years ago.

 

[cavalier]

Point (half) taken. I referred to western society, not (just) the US. I was back in England just last year.

I am curious as to which part in particular you took objection to?