Is Islam actually peaceful?

Devils' Advocate said:
Actions trump words in this reality. In my opinion. When a significant portion of people in a religion either do wrong, or okay with others doing wrong, there is a problem with the religion.

Actions always takes precedence over words.
Click to expand...
You are going to have to define "significant proportion"

60%

40%

20%

10%

1%

1/10 of 1%?

(note a million Muslims or a million Christians treating their religion improperly is 1/10 of 1%)...
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Msadek, welcome. Forgive me if my first comment to you is to disagree with you completely!!!

I have always disagreed with this notion that the religion is pure, it is how people act thru the religion that is messed up. That the judgement of a religion should be its ideal, not how it is practiced.

That is backwards. Because people can make any statement they choose and it is just words. Actions trump words in this reality. In my opinion. When a significant portion of people in a religion either do wrong, or okay with others doing wrong, there is a problem with the religion.

I don't restrict this to religion though. The same belief holds true for governments, etc., any organization that holds sway over a large group of humanity. To support my point let's look at the U.S. today. The words - we believe in the Constitution as the right way to live. The actions of those in power throws the Constitution down the drain. The U.S. is a shallow shell of what it once was. Because people still speak the right words but they take the wrong actions.

Actions always takes precedence over words.
Click to expand...
---------------------------------
Well Devil's Advocate.. thanks for engaging me. I do agree that the actions of the followers of a faith.. any faith, should reflect on the faith and its teachings.. notwithstanding cultural intrusion overtime.. but that is exactly my point.. if there are 1.4 (or 1.6) Billion Muslims in the world who live peacefully with themselves and with other religious groups (whether as a minority or a majority), then that is necessarily a reflection of Islam and its teachings. My point is looking at the actions of a few (tens, hundreds or even thousands) as the reflection of the teachings of Islam and ignoring the over a billion people's peaceful behaviours is the wrong way to analyze it and reflects very poor judgement. In addition, a closer look on the teachings themselves should, like I said before, determine whether the actions of those who claim to be Muslims are living up to these teachings or not. For example, if a religion commands "Love thy neighbor" and a professing follower of that faith is the worst neighbor anyone can have, then he/she is not living up to this commandment. In short, careful analysis (with proper knowledge) should conclude: Islam is a message of Peace for its followers and for the world, Muslims are overwhelmingly peaceful in their lives and actions, and a very small number of them (comparative to their numbers in the world) violate these teachings.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Msadek, welcome. Forgive me if my first comment to you is to disagree with you completely!!!

I have always disagreed with this notion that the religion is pure, it is how people act thru the religion that is messed up. That the judgement of a religion should be its ideal, not how it is practiced.

That is backwards. Because people can make any statement they choose and it is just words. Actions trump words in this reality. In my opinion. When a significant portion of people in a religion either do wrong, or okay with others doing wrong, there is a problem with the religion.

I don't restrict this to religion though. The same belief holds true for governments, etc., any organization that holds sway over a large group of humanity. To support my point let's look at the U.S. today. The words - we believe in the Constitution as the right way to live. The actions of those in power throws the Constitution down the drain. The U.S. is a shallow shell of what it once was. Because people still speak the right words but they take the wrong actions.

Actions always takes precedence over words.
Click to expand...
------------------

So I did write a reply but I got a note saying that a moderator will determine if this will be posted..!! Does anyone know why? maybe the length of it?
My reply basically said that the vast overwhelming majority of the 1.5 Billion Muslims are peaceful and want to live in Peace. based on your argument which I agree with, Islam teaches peace. But I hope my original gets posted anyways.
 
Ok. I just posted a video which I wanted to share. The Moderator will approve it first..
Very strict.. It was a dialogue I had with a Christian Pastor friend in Chicago sometime back. Hope it gets posted.
 
msadek, it's just the bot filter you will be fine after 15 or so posts. I sent a notification to Brian, he'll probably approve your messages soon enough.
 
Msadek, it is a peculiarity of this forum that at some point early on, one of your posts will be set aside for review. And it always seems to be the one you worked the longest on! lol. Happened to me, too. It took a while; actually quite a while, but mine did eventually see the light of day!
 
In response to Wil and Msadek in particular. I would like to think that most people would prefer to be able to live their lives peacefully and freely. Unfortunately our leaders, religious or secular, seem to think otherwise. And too many people seem to be okay with that. Which, in my mind makes them culpable.

How many follow the leader? Take the U.S. right now. We have batshit crazy conservative hardliners ruling the agenda in this country. And they have enough support amongst the majority of people that they are getting their way. Well, either the support of enough people, or that enough people are willing to stand by and do nothing, which is just as bad. Is it the leaders who are bad? Is it the people who support them that are bad? Is it the system that is bad?

How much is enough to label the entire system wrong?
 
msadek said:
---------------------------------
Well Devil's Advocate.. thanks for engaging me. I do agree that the actions of the followers of a faith.. any faith, should reflect on the faith and its teachings.. notwithstanding cultural intrusion overtime.. but that is exactly my point.. if there are 1.4 (or 1.6) Billion Muslims in the world who live peacefully with themselves and with other religious groups (whether as a minority or a majority), then that is necessarily a reflection of Islam and its teachings. My point is looking at the actions of a few (tens, hundreds or even thousands) as the reflection of the teachings of Islam and ignoring the over a billion people's peaceful behaviours is the wrong way to analyze it and reflects very poor judgement. In addition, a closer look on the teachings themselves should, like I said before, determine whether the actions of those who claim to be Muslims are living up to these teachings or not. For example, if a religion commands "Love thy neighbor" and a professing follower of that faith is the worst neighbor anyone can have, then he/she is not living up to this commandment. In short, careful analysis (with proper knowledge) should conclude: Islam is a message of Peace for its followers and for the world, Muslims are overwhelmingly peaceful in their lives and actions, and a very small number of them (comparative to their numbers in the world) violate these teachings.
Click to expand...

msadek said:
I wanted to share this video with you. Please watch it if you can and give me your feedback. I did this in Chicago sometime back. Thanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbanBY2ZbBw
Click to expand...

Posts approved. :)
 
Devils' Advocate said:
In response to Wil and Msadek in particular. I would like to think that most people would prefer to be able to live their lives peacefully and freely. Unfortunately our leaders, religious or secular, seem to think otherwise. And too many people seem to be okay with that. Which, in my mind makes them culpable.

How many follow the leader? Take the U.S. right now. We have batshit crazy conservative hardliners ruling the agenda in this country. And they have enough support amongst the majority of people that they are getting their way. Well, either the support of enough people, or that enough people are willing to stand by and do nothing, which is just as bad. Is it the leaders who are bad? Is it the people who support them that are bad? Is it the system that is bad?

How much is enough to label the entire system wrong?
Click to expand...
If a Dr prescribes a pill to be taken once a day, and someone takes 30 the first night and OD's. Is it the fault of the Dr? Is it the fault of the Medicine? What if 80% of people prescribed this medication do the same? Is it still the Drs' fault? Or the medicine's fault? Or it it the individuals who refused to listen to the prescribed dosage and follow it?
 
Devils' Advocate said:
In response to Wil and Msadek in particular. I would like to think that most people would prefer to be able to live their lives peacefully and freely. Unfortunately our leaders, religious or secular, seem to think otherwise. And too many people seem to be okay with that. Which, in my mind makes them culpable.

How many follow the leader? Take the U.S. right now. We have batshit crazy conservative hardliners ruling the agenda in this country. And they have enough support amongst the majority of people that they are getting their way. Well, either the support of enough people, or that enough people are willing to stand by and do nothing, which is just as bad. Is it the leaders who are bad? Is it the people who support them that are bad? Is it the system that is bad?

How much is enough to label the entire system wrong?
Click to expand...
There was an islamic conference in dallas and they questioned a young man who defended the abuses going on in the middle east of women saying the koran says to do things like stone women. If people of Islam in general believe this then how can it be a religion of peace?
 
donnann said:
There was an islamic conference in dallas and they questioned a young man who defended the abuses going on in the middle east of women saying the koran says to do things like stone women. If people of Islam in general believe this then how can it be a religion of peace?
Click to expand...
How things like this don't show up on my "What's wrong with Islam" thread I'll never know.

The truth is, stoning a woman isn't in the Quran. Most judgement is left for Hadith to discuss. There might be a reason a woman would be stoned, but I cannot think of one that was not equal punishment for a man. The OT prescribes stoning of women in various times when discussing adultry and contact between women and non married men's privates (even accidental if I'm not mistaken) The sentence for an adultering woman is to be isolated (kindof banishment, but not really). In Islam however to judge someone guilty of Adultry you are supposed to need 4 witnesses... So the woman and man better really like having an audience.
 
donnann said:
There was an islamic conference in dallas and they questioned a young man who defended the abuses going on in the middle east of women saying the koran says to do things like stone women. If people of Islam in general believe this then how can it be a religion of peace?
Click to expand...
--------------
People of Islam in general do not believe that and furthermore The punishment for adultery is clearly stated in the Quran and it requires 4 eye witnesses to the very act. Punishment is equal for both man and woman. The Hadith that stipulates stoning is considered "Hadith Aahad", i.e. narrated by a single source, albeit a truthful one, and the general rule of Islamic jurisprudence do not institue legislation from single source Hadiths. As Muslims, we must think about that.. the Quran does not mention stoning, but does not leave the issue unaddressed, it specifies the punishment. The criteria for Hadith authentication in the science of hadith is based on what is known as "Sanad" which is the chain of narrators and "Matn" i.e. the content of the Hadith (not to be in conflict/contradictory to the clear Quran text. Now, if John Smith from Tulsa (all respect to Tulsa though) says in a conference in Penang that Americans are required to eat crocodile meat for breakfast.. what weight should that carry..!!?
 
I see that followers of a religion generally want to see other religions in one of two ways: first for some they want to see it extreme, horrible, violent, horrific, and they would look for ways and people to demonstrate that and search for texts in that "other" religion that seem to justify this conclusion, another group would want to see it irrational, exotic, bizarre, and they too would look for ways to get to that. Seeing another religion to be normal, logical, ordinary, humane, ideal in all sorts of ways may raise questions in their own faith, a challenge most people would rather not have.
 
Really msadek? You see all other religions as extreme, horrible, violent and horrific or irrational, exotic and bizarre?
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Really msadek? You see all other religions as extreme, horrible, violent and horrific or irrational, exotic and bizarre?
Click to expand...
---------------
No Cup of tea.. I don't. I said "generally" in the sense that for religious followers, it gives them further conviction of their own faith that others be "wrong". This does not mean each and every person. Islam teaches that it is the truth from God. y necessity, other faiths are not. I think the same goes for every one. For me, I truly believe Islam is the message of Peace. I hope you had a chance to view my video and give me feedback. That is actually me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbanBY2ZbBw
 
msadek said:
--------------
People of Islam in general do not believe that and furthermore The punishment for adultery is clearly stated in the Quran and it requires 4 eye witnesses to the very act. Punishment is equal for both man and woman. The Hadith that stipulates stoning is considered "Hadith Aahad", i.e. narrated by a single source, albeit a truthful one, and the general rule of Islamic jurisprudence do not institue legislation from single source Hadiths. As Muslims, we must think about that.. the Quran does not mention stoning, but does not leave the issue unaddressed, it specifies the punishment. The criteria for Hadith authentication in the science of hadith is based on what is known as "Sanad" which is the chain of narrators and "Matn" i.e. the content of the Hadith (not to be in conflict/contradictory to the clear Quran text. Now, if John Smith from Tulsa (all respect to Tulsa though) says in a conference in Penang that Americans are required to eat crocodile meat for breakfast.. what weight should that carry..!!?
Click to expand...
I am simply saying that if someone condones the horrible acts of murder of women in the middleast and bases that on the koran that is in my opinion an infidel. Jesus saved the sinners and preached repentance based on understanding. He even stopped the men from stoning a woman saying he who is without sin cast the first stone. It seems to me that on the news they always show muslims in a bad light. Maybe muslims should have a big march for peace and unharmful ways of converting and then people would believe its a religion of peace.
 
donnann said:
I am simply saying that if someone condones the horrible acts of murder of women in the middleast and bases that on the koran that is in my opinion an infidel. Jesus saved the sinners and preached repentance based on understanding. He even stopped the men from stoning a woman saying he who is without sin cast the first stone. It seems to me that on the news they always show muslims in a bad light. Maybe muslims should have a big march for peace and unharmful ways of converting and then people would believe its a religion of peace.
Click to expand...

----------------

The problem is not for Muslims to march on the streets and condemn the lunatics, because they have done and they do that all the time in New York, Chicago, London, etc.. They write to newspapers and speak on TV etc.. etc.. and it will really never be enough. As for those who condone horrible acts of murders of women in the Middle East, I am not sure what is that relating to? the person who spoke in a conference..!!?? There will always be people with crazy ideas. For example, if a Christian or a Jew advocates killing of their own children or brothers or sisters if the leave their religion on the authority of Deut 13:9 then they would be also crazy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top