Is Islam actually peaceful?

[wil]

Tis the issue...we don't.... we don't go to 'dark' africa and save oppressed people, stop genocide... we go where there are political benefits...protecting our natl interests...and raise some poppycock reason to take out some leader...

We had a puppet called the Shah.... the Ayatolla took him out...pissed us off...we funded Sadam to fight him for years and they lost untold men in the process...then we decided to take out Sadam...

Our enemies enemy is our friend...till he isn't.

I don't have the answers....but I'll go on record with disapproval of our current methods.... have been since Vietnam.

 

[farhan]

So if 1 side is oppressed by another, begging for help. The oppressed side is subjected to required rape sessions, men are killed daily as target practice. Children are killed or taken from the mothers. But the other side (a majority of the country) wants the US out of it. It is their country... We should sit out? Just let them have their ways. It's not our fight.

BTW this happens in several countries every day. These countries do not have rss to offer. So out of all the questions, just 1 I would like your answer. Should we go to help knowing there is no benefit to come back to us? If we do, the majority would start fighting us for invading.

There is no moral dialemma here. All interventions are for Real Politik, not for humanity. From Moseddeq to Isis in muslim word, and all major interventions in latin and SEAsian regions back in coldwar days. It just gets "sold" as moral. Otherwise nobody spends trillions of dollars to save childern or women. Thats just fairytale for grownups.

So best choice, keep distance. Aint gonna happen I know

 

[Ahmad232]

yes Islam is peaceful; it is the most peaceful religion ever as God the source of peace has revealed it; all this terrorism we see in the news has nothing to do with Islam and i'm sure you'll agree that true jihad [defence against invading/attacking aggressors] is necessary for peace

one other form of jihad Islam allows is a war against oppression as a last resort, i.e, when diplomatic methods to end the oppression fails] but this type of war can only be ordered by a valid Muslim ruler and this is necessary for peace to

so there you have it guys; peace peace and more peace!; that is Islam!

ps: true jihad entails engaging against enemy honourably, i.e, no torture, etc ,etc,

 

[MysticMansion]

There is no historic evidence, other then all Moslem's claiming peacefulness and honesty, that Islam is peaceful. There is however a great deal of historic evidence to the contrary. They seem to be more of a militant political entity then a religion. They were born from a highly successful bandit group lead by Mohammed.

They themselves preach a God who is the greatest liar of all and a deceiver according to their own self proclaimed holy books. They claim to be peaceful but have a history filled only with the subjugation of other religions which has lead to the annihilation of many countries religions and all their freedoms leaving them all to be subjugated under Islamic Sharia law.

The religion promotes lying to any and all outsiders to further their own personal or collective ends. They are famous for their dishonesty in business if business is transacted with outsiders. The religion forbids any Moslem to be friendly with outsiders except as a deception. They are permitted to even deny being Moslem and to break any of their own rules to deceive outsiders in order to fulfil their own ends or the ends of Islam. This includes denial of believing in Islam, or Allah. They can eat pork or drink alcohol with you to prove they are peaceful. The religion states that as long as they tell themselves inside that they are faithful to Islam then their lies, deception and breach of their own laws is holy if it gains them whatever advantage they are after.

The religion states that all money stolen by fraud from outsiders is a gift from Allah and they should thank him for having given them the gift won by lying and cheating.

The religion suggests that heaven is not guaranteed them from just the peaceful practice of Islam but that this is a deception from Allah. Heaven is only guaranteed by subjugating others and killing of infidels which is anyone who refuses to convert. They do not allow other religions to coexist with them for long as they turn these people into second class citizens who are made an object lesson to those who try to coexist with them. Very few people hold out long trying to co-exist under Sharia law.

In my experience and through my reading of their self proclaimed holy books they are a militant political group posing as a religion with only one aim, which is to destroy worldwide Christianity and Judaism and then to subjugate the entire world in the name of Allah the great deciever. They hide behind the name religion and claim to be peaceful to use the Christian based desires for peace and kindness against us. We are just victims being set up for slaughter and or the enslavement under Sharia law.

The only upside I see to Islamic history is that in the end they will fill heaven with Christian Martyrs. They will destroy Europe and unless stopped the world.

I recognize as people they are very devoted to their movement and we would be a better planet if Christians would show the same type of zeal as they practice in their misguided conquest of the world. We should be conquering the world by love and truth without the use of lying, deception, fraud, brutality, rape, murder the and overall enslavement of mankind process practised by Islam.

 

[wil]

Gad, who has been feeding you this toxic waste and why do you regurgitate it on others?

It would be great if you found ANY Quranic scripture to support your hate.

the religion states...the religion suggests... yet no support or footnote?

This post is great as it displays exactly the reason that Muslims can't understand Christians that don't follow Christ.

wow.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

There is no historic evidence, other then all Moslem's claiming peacefulness and honesty, that Islam is peaceful. There is however a great deal of historic evidence to the contrary. They seem to be more of a militant political entity then a religion. They were born from a highly successful bandit group lead by Mohammed.

No historic evidence? What history have you been reading? While The European Christians were fighting for control, killing each other over Catholic vs Orthodox vs protestant, Islam (at least a majority) held a very peaceful life. From the born from a bandit group, shows you know nothing of Mouhammed (PBUH). He was a merchant, not a bandit. Also you seem to imply Muslims are all decendents of Mouhammed (PBUH). I cannot claim that for myself, nor could a VAST majority of Muslims of which MOST are not even ARAB. If the Moslem part did not give away your hate focus, this part did.

They themselves preach a God who is the greatest liar of all and a deceiver according to their own self proclaimed holy books. They claim to be peaceful but have a history filled only with the subjugation of other religions which has lead to the annihilation of many countries religions and all their freedoms leaving them all to be subjugated under Islamic Sharia law.

Greatest liar? I've seen many lists of his (purported) 99 names (or Traits) yet Liar or Deceiver was never one. Maybe a little Arabic might help you find out what you are actually arguing. I wouldn't know, I don't speak nor read arabic (learning). But the verse commonly translated as "and Allah is the best of deceivers" in context shows that while deceivers is a possible translation Strategists is a much better translation. deceivers has a negative connotation to most English speakers, however, deception simply means to hide something. or lead away.

Subjugated? How so. Of the people who stayed in the lands the Muslims controled they could have 3 options. Live in peace, paying a small tax (which went to caring for poor of all people including their own) while for the most part self governing (the laws enforced among all were generally universally accepted). They could freely leave with ALL of their possessions (not something awarded of those that fled the christian invaders). Or finally they could fight. Mouhammed (PBUH) often would concede liberties to other religions who felt oppressed (he was following Quran when it says Allah hates oppressors).

Subjugated under "Islamic Shariah Law"... First, Is there another Shariah that demands we say Islamic before? How does one subjugate based on laws that only applies to Muslims? I think you need an Islam101 course... ahah here you go

http://www.islam101.com/

The religion promotes lying to any and all outsiders to further their own personal or collective ends. They are famous for their dishonesty in business if business is transacted with outsiders. The religion forbids any Moslem to be friendly with outsiders except as a deception. They are permitted to even deny being Moslem and to break any of their own rules to deceive outsiders in order to fulfil their own ends or the ends of Islam. This includes denial of believing in Islam, or Allah. They can eat pork or drink alcohol with you to prove they are peaceful. The religion states that as long as they tell themselves inside that they are faithful to Islam then their lies, deception and breach of their own laws is holy if it gains them whatever advantage they are after.

Literally not a word of this is true. I'll sum it up by saying Denying you are a Muslim, is a great sin, so is lying. Neither of these matter who the Muslim is talking to. Your last part is a twisted idea as to how Favors work. Eating pork is allowed if you are starving, and some would say that it is ok as well as alcohol if your host insists and it would be considered rude for you to refuse. Being rude to your host is another sin, but most would say that if the host is demanding while knowing you are not to eat pork/drink alcohol, then the host himself/herself is being rude.

The religion states that all money stolen by fraud from outsiders is a gift from Allah and they should thank him for having given them the gift won by lying and cheating.

So we are just throwing out the whole do business fairly part...

The religion suggests that heaven is not guaranteed them from just the peaceful practice of Islam but that this is a deception from Allah. Heaven is only guaranteed by subjugating others and killing of infidels which is anyone who refuses to convert. They do not allow other religions to coexist with them for long as they turn these people into second class citizens who are made an object lesson to those who try to coexist with them. Very few people hold out long trying to co-exist under Sharia law.

Again nothing true. Nothing Guarantees you into heaven... period. as stated before subjugating is oppression and a huge sin. Killing "infidels" might get you a free ticket, depending on intention, and circumstances. Killing someone while at peace, will have you in Hell for sure, while killing someone attacking you or your family, righteous... Don't you agree?

In my experience and through my reading of their self proclaimed holy books they are a militant political group posing as a religion with only one aim, which is to destroy worldwide Christianity and Judaism and then to subjugate the entire world in the name of Allah the great deciever. They hide behind the name religion and claim to be peaceful to use the Christian based desires for peace and kindness against us. We are just victims being set up for slaughter and or the enslavement under Sharia law.

So a book which reveres all prophets (PBUTA) of the Torah and Bible is a book about domination of them? A book who mentions both Chistians and Jews as brothers (or cousins) is about oppressing, enslaving, and killing them?

The only upside I see to Islamic history is that in the end they will fill heaven with Christian Martyrs. They will destroy Europe and unless stopped the world.

Funny, those Christian Martyrs also killed one another because they thought the other's bible should include extra books (or less books depending on perspective)...

I recognize as people they are very devoted to their movement and we would be a better planet if Christians would show the same type of zeal as they practice in their misguided conquest of the world. We should be conquering the world by love and truth without the use of lying, deception, fraud, brutality, rape, murder the and overall enslavement of mankind process practised by Islam.

*practiced* and once again, do more research... the centers for fraud, rape, and murder aren't found in Muslim dominated countries.

These 10 Countries Have The World's Highest Murder Rates

Top 10 Countries With Highest Rape Crime

fraud is a tough one to find... maybe you can find a reliable source to prove me wrong?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

It is always a bemusement to me when someone comes along and picks a group for condemnation. They cherry pick their examples to prove their misguided point.

Mystic you realize that an equally evil image of Christianity could be created without a lot of difficulty - by cherry picking the necessary passages and historical events.

How exactly did the Hebrews find their promised land after their many years of wandering? They 'found' their promised land by decimating the Midianites and taking their lands. Essentially their promised land was obtained by genocide.

And the Christians? Do we really need to list all the savagery they lavished on the world between their inquisitions, crusades and corrupt Popes?

And so on. And so on.

You know what. People the world over, in the end, are people. There are great people, terrible people, honest people, criminal people, hateful people, loving people. Every group on the planet religious, racial, governmental, whatever - they are all made up of people. Humanity. And every single one of them share all the greatness and all the pettiness of all the rest.

Rants, like yours, against any one group fail this simple reality test. People are people are people. In order to accept your twisted view of Islam only works in they are somehow not people like all the rest of us. But they are people. Just like all the rest of us. They Are No Different.

Any claim to the contrary is hyperbole.

 

[wil]

I believe we simply have a misguided mystic. Many have bought into the line of hate that is spewed on the net and from the pulpit (on both sides). And they in turn fuel each other, neither realizing they are part of the problem.

And not a small part...

 

[donnann]

It is always a bemusement to me when someone comes along and picks a group for condemnation. They cherry pick their examples to prove their misguided point.

Mystic you realize that an equally evil image of Christianity could be created without a lot of difficulty - by cherry picking the necessary passages and historical events.

How exactly did the Hebrews find their promised land after their many years of wandering? They 'found' their promised land by decimating the Midianites and taking their lands. Essentially their promised land was obtained by genocide.

And the Christians? Do we really need to list all the savagery they lavished on the world between their inquisitions, crusades and corrupt Popes?

And so on. And so on.

You know what. People the world over, in the end, are people. There are great people, terrible people, honest people, criminal people, hateful people, loving people. Every group on the planet religious, racial, governmental, whatever - they are all made up of people. Humanity. And every single one of them share all the greatness and all the pettiness of all the rest.

Rants, like yours, against any one group fail this simple reality test. People are people are people. In order to accept your twisted view of Islam only works in they are somehow not people like all the rest of us. But they are people. Just like all the rest of us. They Are No Different.

Any claim to the contrary is hyperbole.

If your truely a christian you follow jesus. He healed the sick, he didnt make people sick. He raised the dead, he didnt kill people. He preached forgiveness instead of revenge. Anything that diverts from jesus is really just a fake christian trying to use it politically.

 

[Amica]

Problem many have is that they view Islam by the practice of few. Islam is no more violent by the actions of some of its followers as is Christianity or any other faith. For example, KKK interprets Christianity in a racist manner. Does this mean Christianity is teaching and promoting racism and violence related to it? Of course not. But if you are going to apply the same standards to other faiths as you do Islam, then you must accept that all violent followers of other faiths have exclusively correct interpretation of religions they represent. Otherwise, if you only apply such only to Islam and Muslims, then you are not truly making an effort to understand Islam and look what the religion is about.

Afghanistan, Arabian peninsula and places like that practice the strictest forms of Islam understanding. However, when you dig further into the history of the nations you will understand that leaderships are the responsible for such rigid Islamic practices, not the religion itself. Take for example Afghanistan. Who trained the Taliban? Who actually organized them to be so religiously rigid? Non-Muslim government of course who used the locals and their leadership, manipulated their understanding of religion of Islam, for their political agendas. Mainly, the U.S. government. They paid for and encouraged madrassas that encouraged radicalization of youths. Why? Because manipulating someone's religious views is the best way to get them motivated and do your bidding. Look at the Saudis? The dynasty is even calling the country as their possession: Saudi Arabia. It not even just Arabia. Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not call it Muslim Arabia, and certainly never Muhammad's Arabia. It was just Arabia.

Look at what millions of people are doing, then determine whether the religion is bad. Millions of Muslims are not engaging in an endless war with non-Muslims. They work, give charity, follow laws and raise family like everyone else. And, even Muslims are victims of interpretations of Islam that some propagate. For example, recently Boko Haram attacked a mosque and killed worshipers inside. ISIS targets have been Muslims and non-Muslims alike, as did AQ. One of the most important teachings of Islam itself is not to attack another person who says that he/she worships Allah SWT and not to attack ANYONE first. You have a right to defend yourself under Islam, but Allah SWT does not give you any right to attack anyone first. And yet, monsters like ISIS attack without disregard. Must ask yourself why? If Islam is evil, why would it teach you to be peaceful toward those who are not attacking you first? Would it teach you to cease any war activities if your enemy desires peace? Would it teach you to be kind to even trees in warfare? Of course not.

Name "Islam" does not mean peace. A total preaching of peace would mean that a person would be forbidden to defend in case of being attacked. Question, then, how would such a religion even survive the times? Rather, Islam refers to submission to God's Will and Laws, which may include necessary violence to defend oneself and Islam itself. Part of this submission includes living in a diverse world peacefully, and striving to be the best in various spheres of life: charity, study, community service. A violent person is not participating in such submission and no matter what one calls himself, he cannot be in harmony with Islam itself.

Check these out:

https://haveyoumetislam.wordpress.c...y-than-other-religions-to-encourage-violence/

https://haveyoumetislam.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/islam-does-it-teach-violence/

Re: rules

Yes, I find it quite disturbing, that a religion that says it is for tolerance and peace, only does so when required. A Muslim is free to practice their faith in virtually every western country, even those countries considered Christian. Muslims are generally free to worship, hold jobs, earn and save money, get healthcare, go to school, and come and go pretty much as they please. They are only asked to behave themselves, just like everybody else is expected to behave themselves.

Yet, in countries where Islam is the norm, and Sharia is the law of the land, all other religions are persecuted. Islam, in its purest form, is very intolerant of other faiths. I find this sad. We hear their more liberal clerics living in the west where Muslims are expected to behave, telling us that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant faith, and they quote us chapter and verse to support what they tell us. Then we see what really goes on in countries where Sharia is the law of the land. It is exactly the opposite of what these well meaning clerics have been telling us.

And Islam wonders why nobody else will trust it, that nobody else believes what they say? Actions speak louder than words. The actions of Muslims speak louder than any verses they may quote, or any lies that are told. Ah, but these are not the actions of all Muslims...true, yet how many "average, common, everyday Muslims" cheered when the buildings burned in New York? Ah, but aren't Christians guilty also of saying one thing and doing another...to which I say, who has greater freedom: the Christian in a Muslim nation, or the Muslim in a Christian nation?

Saying, and doing, are two different things. When Christians and Muslims both figure this out, the world will be better off. As long as there are those who cheer for the suffering of others, there will be troubles in the world.

The saddest part to the whole story, is that Islam does know how to co-exist. When Europe was in the deepest depths of the Dark Ages, shrouded in superstition and ignorance, Islam kept learning and science alive. When the Enlightenment finally dawned in Europe, it was in no small part because of Islam that reason and logic returned. Places like Toledo, where Islamic communities offered cosmopolitan opportunities for trade and education and discovery, were the envy of their day, and a safe haven for any who sought refuge. Where has this Islam gone?

 

[wil]

How much has changed since Cassius Clay and Lou Al Cinder became Muslim because it was known to be nonviolent...

 

[Amica]

Religion itself is not different. It is just that we got some new guys who say that it is all about violence. For example, take Srebrenica genocide survivors. Has any one of them done revenge against perpetrators and those who supported the genocide? No. Many war criminals still live in the same neighborhoods with the survivors. The survivors are Muslim, many of whom have become very pious. Yet, their understanding of Islam is that there is Only One Judge and His Court, and that Court is Just and that Justice will catch up with the criminals. They are not going on a violent, vengeful spree because Islam teaches to keep one's cool as much as possible (that is actually in the Qur'an in many places where Allah SWT states that one who is wronged can return the same, but it is better for him or her to remain calm). And recent Srebrenica genocide is not the first one. Muslim blood was spilled in that region of Bosnia many times before. In fact, there is a story of people being murdered on mass in WWII to the point where international leaders were aghast at the atrocities of Muslim civilians in the area of river Drina. Has anyone ever answered for the crimes? No. Why? Well, WWII victims in the nazi machine were exclusively promoted as just people who were Jewish, Serbs and Roma. Not that these people have not been murdered on mass. The facts are that they were. But all other information of mass murders of civilians other than Jews, Serbs and Roma is hush hush. Never mind that in the post Ottoman Yugoslavia, Muslims had to declare themselves as Serbs and Croats only. Which, puts into question how many of those Serbs were actually Muslim by religion? Which is another story and a good research topic. In fact, one of my grandfather's had to declare himself a Serb officially. His ID documentation stated "Serb" even though he was a Muslim by faith.

 

[socialleper]

The argument that Islam is a faith of peace does seem to be a little hard to grasp sometimes. I understand that a lot of what it is is being perverted by agitators, but it really seems like the inmates are running the asylum in this case. Even if you dismiss savage organizations like the Taliban, ISIS, Al Qeada, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, etc (it is a VERY long list BTW) you have sovereign states who's policies and actions are openly hostile to other kinds of Muslims (Shai v Sunni) or anyone else. By and large, it seems the leading cause of death of Muslims is other Muslims even though this is forbidden. The Islamic world is supposed to be a brotherhood but refugees are fleeing terrible sectarian violence but aren't going to some of the most power Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran, but to secular, "Western" Europe. The people of Iran seem like sane, moderate people that want "Western" things so this nuke deal seems like a good idea; until their Supreme Leader goes and mouths off Israel again.
If Islam is a religion of peace, it really seems like the peaceful ones are losing ground to the aggressive ones. How can a religious community of over a billion be held hostage by a few hundred thousand?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

The argument that Islam is a faith of peace does seem to be a little hard to grasp sometimes. I understand that a lot of what it is is being perverted by agitators, but it really seems like the inmates are running the asylum in this case. Even if you dismiss savage organizations like the Taliban, ISIS, Al Qeada, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, etc (it is a VERY long list BTW) you have sovereign states who's policies and actions are openly hostile to other kinds of Muslims (Shai v Sunni) or anyone else. By and large, it seems the leading cause of death of Muslims is other Muslims even though this is forbidden. The Islamic world is supposed to be a brotherhood but refugees are fleeing terrible sectarian violence but aren't going to some of the most power Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran, but to secular, "Western" Europe. The people of Iran seem like sane, moderate people that want "Western" things so this nuke deal seems like a good idea; until their Supreme Leader goes and mouths off Israel again.
If Islam is a religion of peace, it really seems like the peaceful ones are losing ground to the aggressive ones. How can a religious community of over a billion be held hostage by a few hundred thousand?

idk if I have time to address all the things you discussed, but I will try.

1st you seem to give Iran and Saudi more credit than they are due for power. their populations combined don't come close to Indonesia's Islamic population.

The Shia/Sunni conflict, while real, is not as big of an issue as the media would like to say. The number killed per year in both sides is roughly that of the murder rate in Chicago. (statistics were old so maybe you have an argument that is valid). Also as a side note, that "Very long list" of terror organizations has equalsin other countries in every major faith. Here in the US these lists are highly influenced by Israeli allies. (something I from an American standpoint think we should move away from, and that can be discussed later if needed).

You are correct that we are our own worst enemy. Between territorial issues and cultural influences from pre-Islamic times, This Ummah has been doing a horrible job at Dawah and PR in general. For too long we have focused inwardly about who is more correct, and that is something that is changing. No we are not laxing rules of God as most Christians/Jews have, but we are slowly moving to accept the ways that we differ as just what Allah planned. Because of the way we do things a lot of outsiders don't see the good we do daily between charity and caring for poor and orphans (another job we could be doing better is caring for the orphans better, more than just providing money and food to care for them, a project me and my wife are looking into...) But even by saying this plan of me and my wife I am decreasing my reward, hence why you don't find many people talking about what they have done.

As for the people running. I was talking to some people recently and most agree, the men should not be running. they should be retreating to recollect and fight back. They certainly shouldn't be seaking the protection of the "Western" countries.

That's about all the depth I can go in such a short time available.

 

[socialleper]

1st you seem to give Iran and Saudi more credit than they are due for power. their populations combined don't come close to Indonesia's Islamic population.

Fair enough. However, Indonesia doesn't have anywhere near the geopolitical, military, or even religious importance of Saudi Arabia or Iran. Indonesia got around to being Muslim later where as Mecca and Medina are in Saudi Arabia and Iran can rightfully make the claim of being the home of some of the greatest empires.

The Shia/Sunni conflict, while real, is not as big of an issue as the media would like to say.

I don't know if I can buy off on the Shai/Sunni conflict being as being ginned up by the media. Until America made the stupid mistake have destabilizing Iraq, I'd say 90% of us had no idea what a Shai or a Sunni was. That lack of understanding and failure to take the division seriously is what led that country into the hole it is in now. The politics of that part of the world seem to rotate around the binary struggle between Sunni and Shai, with Saudi Arabia and Iran acting as the focal points for each side. Many Sunni extremist groups really seem to go after the Shai pretty hard. Theory is one thing, but the proof is in the very bloody pudding.

The number killed per year in both sides is roughly that of the murder rate in Chicago.

I don't know about that either. Aren't nearly all of ISIS Muslim killings over the Sunni/Shai divide? Isn't the core of the long civil war in Syria this schism? Alawites are an offshoot of Shai, and Iran backs Assad. In 2013 there were 488 homicides in Chicago; that's a lot but I'd bet ISIS alone beat those numbers. I also don't think anyone in Chicago was ever put in a cage and lit on fire, had their throat slittings broadcast around the world as a recruitment tool, or made to dig their own graves, beg for mercy, then shot execution style. That's some straight up Nazi stuff right there and this sort of behavior isn't exclusive to ISIS.

No we are not laxing rules of God as most Christians/Jews have,

Here's where my secular roots show: But shouldn't you? Christianity and Judaism were able to get out of the violent phase Islam seems to be stuck in by letting some stuff slide. For all the Bible thumping we do in the US, it is usually a very relaxed version. No modern Protestant can conceiving of living as the Puritans did, or modern Catholics dreaming of a world wide Christendom. Living your life by centuries old laws is just a bad idea. Humans change and we can't accept rules written before the industrial age as applicable for our lives. You can use it as a sort of psychologically helpful guideline, but any sort of literal interpretation applied to modern life is crazy.

I was talking to some people recently and most agree, the men should not be running.

Well, that's where the rubber hits the road isn't it? Muslims shouldn't be killing women and children. They shouldn't be killing eachother at all. They should respect People of the Book. They should stand up to bullies. It should be a religion of peace. That's a lot of empty shoulds and shouldn'ts. I'm just as hard on Christians about the hypocrisies they engage in; abortion should be illegal but guns, wars, and capital punishment are fine, the Prosperity Gospel that directly violates Jesus' message, treatment of the vulnerable, etc. But when it comes to not having a performance record that matches the mission statement, Islam seems to win.
The "West" (a vague term) broke the cycle of dogma fueled violence when we walked back from it a little and realized what we were doing. For centuries Europe was embroiled in bloody sectarian violence, and now they are largely secular countries. This is just one random guy's opinion that doesn't mean squat, but if Islam wants to be a religion of peace it is going to need to get over its self. Hint: Islam isn't the first religion that claims to have it all right, and won't be the last. That should really tell you something.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

religious importance of Saudi Arabia or Iran

most Muslims would disagree. Geographically speaking yes, Saudi controls Mecca and Medina, but that is hardly a control of the population. Saudi holds little importance to me outside of a blockade from people looking to invade the Cities. Politically/Religiously most Muslims disagree with both Saudi and Iran.

I don't know if I can buy off on the Shai/Sunni conflict being as being ginned up by the media. Until America made the stupid mistake have destabilizing Iraq, I'd say 90% of us had no idea what a Shai or a Sunni was. That lack of understanding and failure to take the division seriously is what led that country into the hole it is in now. The politics of that part of the world seem to rotate around the binary struggle between Sunni and Shai, with Saudi Arabia and Iran acting as the focal points for each side. Many Sunni extremist groups really seem to go after the Shai pretty hard. Theory is one thing, but the proof is in the very bloody pudding.

I'd say we (US) messed up way before Iraq, but thats not really the point. In Iran, Shia is more common, but Sunni is acceptable. There is very little aggression. People outside of Islam like to see countries as capitals of religions outside of Christianity. Hindus, India; Sunni Muslim, Saudi Arabia; Shia Islam, Iran; Buddhism, China... etc. This isn't the case however. Hindus don't look to India to see what they should or shouldn't do/like. Same with Muslims, we have our own minds. There are those who follow blindly others, but a majority of us at least attempt to find references to right/wrong in Quranic References/Hadiths. There is a distrust between the 2 as most Sunnis consider Shias to be committing sin in their adoration of Ali, but very little violence actually goes on between the 2 outside of the occasional power struggle endemic to many underdeveloped countries.

I don't know about that either. Aren't nearly all of ISIS Muslim killings over the Sunni/Shai divide? Isn't the core of the long civil war in Syria this schism? Alawites are an offshoot of Shai, and Iran backs Assad. In 2013 there were 488 homicides in Chicago; that's a lot but I'd bet ISIS alone beat those numbers. I also don't think anyone in Chicago was ever put in a cage and lit on fire, had their throat slittings broadcast around the world as a recruitment tool, or made to dig their own graves, beg for mercy, then shot execution style. That's some straight up Nazi stuff right there and this sort of behavior isn't exclusive to ISIS.

You seem to be grabbing facts that aren't related to make your point. Or maybe you are that misinformed. This isn't meant to offend you, but it seems you are using highly biased "western" publications in your analysis. ISIS has killed many Muslims, that is true. If they were all or even majority killed from shias, this would make sense. I read somewhere that recent statistics showed 80% of their victims are Sunnis. 10% Shias, and the rest was summed up as "others" to include the Christians/Atheists/etc. This is debatable of course, but by and large the majority are Sunni, even though they claim to be Sunni. The distinction seems to be more focused on people who do not support ISIS/DAESH. They are much happier to kill anyone who doesn't want to join, leading many a strong countries (US, SA, Turkiye, Jordan, Russia, "Syria") to charge into attack them (at least from the air). Getting a statistic about number of Shias killed by Sunni for being Shia might be a difficult number to obtain, along with its opposite. I do know here in the US, I have met people from both that have prayed next to each other.

The last line, is true, only if you are not willing to change ISIS to Terrorists (which would include your list from earlier).

But shouldn't you?

NO. We should not abrogate the Quran for the societal decisions of man.

Christianity and Judaism were able to get out of the violent phase Islam seems to be stuck in by letting some stuff slide.

And if followed correctly (as in what the Quran tells us and by living as Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) told us to) Islam solved these issues already. No it isn't the secular, immoral, "free" society professed as "best" in the "West" (US/UK/ Europe/Canada/etc), as it is better than that. Better in short run, and long. Feel free to question any of what you think to be problems on my other thread "What's wrong with Islam". It is meant to explain the misconceptions and all these "Islam teaches...(something horrible)" posts, but can be used to discuss what someone feels to be unfair/wrong.

For all the Bible thumping we do in the US, it is usually a very relaxed version. No modern Protestant can conceiving of living as the Puritans did, or modern Catholics dreaming of a world wide Christendom.

OK I agree... the Christianity/Judaism of scripture is both harsh and unfair for many IMO. you won't hear me championing the principles.

Living your life by centuries old laws is just a bad idea. Humans change and we can't accept rules written before the industrial age as applicable for our lives. You can use it as a sort of psychologically helpful guideline, but any sort of literal interpretation applied to modern life is crazy.

as specified earlier. We can agree to disagree, or you can show me what is such a bad idea in Islam for modern times. There is a world of info i doubt you have explored about many a religion as old/older than Modern Islam (since Mouhammed (PBUH)).

Well, that's where the rubber hits the road isn't it? Muslims shouldn't be killing women and children. They shouldn't be killing eachother at all.

agree... and for a vast majority of us we don't.

They should respect People of the Book.

again for a vast majority we do... at least respect their beliefs, the actions of most are not so respectable.

They should stand up to bullies. It should be a religion of peace.

Agreed... again... most of us try...

That's a lot of empty shoulds and shouldn'ts.

your opinion... backed by media alone...

I'm just as hard on Christians about the hypocrisies they engage in; abortion should be illegal but guns, wars, and capital punishment are fine, the Prosperity Gospel that directly violates Jesus' message, treatment of the vulnerable, etc.

I doubt you are as critical... but I will reserve my judgement until it can be proven one way or the other. To be fair though... I agree with abortion being illegal for MOST cases. and I agree with Capital Punishment when appropriate... Wars are necessary at times, but should never be entered into aggressively... and Guns have nothing to do with religion. Jesus (PBUH) said (according to the Bible) for his apostles to sell what they had left to get swords (for a specific reason of course). Seems he approved of weapons for defense as well.

But when it comes to not having a performance record that matches the mission statement, Islam seems to win.

agree to disagree again... Christianity has a long history to make up for, and it hasn't completely gotten out of a violent escapade either.

The "West" (a vague term) broke the cycle of dogma fueled violence when we walked back from it a little and realized what we were doing. For centuries Europe was embroiled in bloody sectarian violence, and now they are largely secular countries.

secular =/= peaceful... or correct in God's eye necessarily...

This is just one random guy's opinion that doesn't mean squat, but if Islam wants to be a religion of peace it is going to need to get over its self.

I understand... all your opinion... I'm happy you recognize that, as I've had to explain to many a people that their opinion isn't universal truth.

Islam isn't the first religion that claims to have it all right, and won't be the last. That should really tell you something.

This seems to be something many a agnostic/doubtful Christian arguments go around. It is purely illogical assumption however as it doesn't address anything that would make it not right... in any measure. It certainly isn't the first, or the last to make the claim, but it is the only one that doesn't seem to find logic against it that I've found. Your argument, actually doesn't tell me, or anyone anything other than there is a statistical possibility it is wrong. I'm up for the challenge whenever anyone wants to profess any discrepancies you think there are in Quran, how many other religions can actually make that claim stick. If you said there are a lot of Muslims who don't follow correctly, I (and most Muslims) would agree. But proving it wrong, you've got a lot of work to do.

 

[socialleper]

Geographically speaking yes, Saudi controls Mecca and Medina, but that is hardly a control of the population. Saudi holds little importance to me outside of a blockade from people looking to invade the Cities. Politically/Religiously most Muslims disagree with both Saudi and Iran.

I think there is a little bit of a disconnect in this argument and its one of the things I don't get. The Iranian people seem like pleasant and sane people, but their government is nuts. The average Joe in Iran may agree and say "they don't represent me," but guess what? They do. That's how governments work. And if they go and do something really stupid, who is going to pay the biggest price; the government and the clerics or the common man? Same goes for Saudi Arabia. Everyone knows that the governments of both nations support and fund terrorist oragnizations, and the Saudis are actively involved in pushing Wahhabism and them as a power broker in the region. Regular Arabs may not agree with this, but they aren't doing a whole lot to stop it either.

but very little violence actually goes on between the 2 outside of the occasional power struggle endemic to many underdeveloped countries.

So the complete cluster @#$& of sectarian violence that Iraq, Syria and Libya have devolved into are what? Outliers? It looks like a pretty common theme to me.

There is a world of info i doubt you have explored about many a religion as old/older than Modern Islam

Bad guess. I'm pretty well versed in Christian history, Buddhist history, and Buddhist philosophy. I'll admit that I only have a cursory understanding of Islam, but that exceeds what most Americans have.

agree... and for a vast majority of us we don't.

again for a vast majority we do... at least respect their beliefs, the actions of most are not so respectable.

again for a vast majority we do... at least respect their beliefs, the actions of most are not so respectable.

Cool, so what the hell are you all doing about the lunatics? I would be more than happy to let the US sit out of yet another war in the middle east, but as I've said, it really seems like a few hundred thousand madman are calling the shots for all of Islam because the larger majority that supposedly believes in peace, dignity, and respect are sitting on their hands. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey and Egypt all have very large armies, made up mostly of US made weapon systems. If they truly saw ISIS, al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hezbollah, etc as a threat to peace and the lives of other Muslims, they could squash it quickly. If "regular" Muslims truly despised these organizations they would have stopped the food of people joining their ranks. But has that happened? This leads one to think that they are either incompetent, or quietly complicit.

Christianity has a long history to make up for,

Agreed, that's why I'm not one.

as I've had to explain to many a people that their opinion isn't universal truth.

And it is only opinion that Islam thinks it is the perfect and final word of god. Islam, like Christianity, can never be "peaceful" as long as it labors under the fallacy of its own authority.

But proving it wrong, you've got a lot of work to do.

Actually no, there is nothing easier. There has never been a single indicator that anything contained within any of the Abrahamic traditions scriptures actually has been handed down by a divine creator. They are all the work of men. Every translation was written by human hands. God can create the universe but not a printing press? God has never manifested him/her/its self to a large mass of people and declared "Here's how this works." Its always some lone guy in a cave, or in the desert, or on mountain top. The man written scriptures all say they are perfect, universal, and authoritative, because if they didn't who would follow them? Humans seek to control other humans and what better way to do it than by playing on the human desire to anthropomorphize the universe, cobble some kind of sensible framework out of the chaos of existence, and believe they are more than a highly advanced culture on a Petri dish we call Earth, that is one of millions in the cosmos? There doesn't need to be smaller specific discrepancies in the Quran, the Bible, the Vedas, the Pali Canon, or anything else because their very roots are flawed; ie human.

NO. We should not abrogate the Quran for the societal decisions of man.

Why not? It was the societal decisions of man that wrote it in the first place

 

[wil]

I think there is a little bit of a disconnect in this argument and its one of the things I don't get. The Iranian people seem like pleasant and sane people, but their government is nuts.

No disconnect...that is normal...cold war Russia/US bs...killing a million Iraqis...we fall to the exact same issues..

So the complete cluster @#$& of sectarian violence that Iraq, Syria and Libya have devolved into are what? Outliers? It looks like a pretty common theme to me.

Who are the nutz that drew the lines in the sand where there were none?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

The Iranian people seem like pleasant and sane people, but their government is nuts. The average Joe in Iran may agree and say "they don't represent me," but guess what? They do. That's how governments work.

I don't think anyone claimed representation of people by government is false... Just so we are on the same Page, Shias in Pakistan do not look up to Iran for what is right/wrong. It is not a religious capital with a religious council that controls anything. Now on a personal level, I will even go with the fact that the Gov't of Iran doesn't represent the people's morality... same as Saudis.

So the complete cluster @#$& of sectarian violence that Iraq, Syria and Libya have devolved into are what? Outliers? It looks like a pretty common theme to me.

or just as I stated... power struggles. Tribal nationalism. whatever you want to call it.

Cool, so what the hell are you all doing about the lunatics?

As much as I can/need to. See there are a lot of people like you who think we should all take up arms and go to war with misguided Muslims. But that isn't our way... Noone benefits from that. If I did, people such as yourself would just accuse us of forcing them to think like us "by the sword". So we do it the way Mouhammed did, with peaceful discussion and education (Islamic education). When necessary countries like SA, Egypt, and Turkey do attack usually waiting for atrocities before committing.

I would be more than happy to let the US sit out of yet another war in the middle east, but as I've said, it really seems like a few hundred thousand madman are calling the shots for all of Islam because the larger majority that supposedly believes in peace, dignity, and respect are sitting on their hands.

most of us, that is all we can do... I'm a US citizen... always have been, I can get a turkish Citizenship through my wife, but if I went as a rogue to fight ISIS, I would lose my citizenship as I would officially be part of a foreign military. So I support those who are displaced in whatever way I can. Many Muslims donate hundreds/thousands of dollars a year to displaced/poor to allow for both food (shortages would cause more violence) and education. That is how we usually try to fight these issues, including SA's Wahabbiism.

If they truly saw ISIS, al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hezbollah, etc as a threat to peace and the lives of other Muslims, they could squash it quickly.

from a military standpoint this is more difficult than it seems.

Agreed, that's why I'm not one.

sad that you allow mistakes of men affect your belief in the divine.

And it is only opinion that Islam thinks it is the perfect and final word of god.

We welcome peer review...

Islam, like Christianity, can never be "peaceful" as long as it labors under the fallacy of its own authority.

try me... what is so non-peaceful?

Actually no, there is nothing easier. There has never been a single indicator that anything contained within any of the Abrahamic traditions scriptures actually has been handed down by a divine creator.

that's not proof that it isn't, that is proof that it isn't proven to you.

They are all the work of men. Every translation was written by human hands.

Yet the original was (in your opinion) developed by a man who couldn't read/write, and even if that was a lie, the intricacy of the Quran would be difficult for the most skilled linguist. That isn't even taking into account the signs displayed that man didn't know/weren't sure of.

Humans seek to control other humans and what better way to do it than by playing on the human desire to anthropomorphize the universe, cobble some kind of sensible framework out of the chaos of existence, and believe they are more than a highly advanced culture on a Petri dish we call Earth, that is one of millions in the cosmos? There doesn't need to be smaller specific discrepancies in the Quran, the Bible, the Vedas, the Pali Canon, or anything else because their very roots are flawed; ie human.

again... you are welcome to study it so you can try to actually make these accusations with proof. I've studied for a while, found nothing. many people have studied their whole lives and couldn't find anything. Again your opinion is based on the assumption that since the Bible is Man-made, and has numerous errors, every book/revalation is. This is fouled logic.

Why not? It was the societal decisions of man that wrote it in the first place

again good luck proving that.

 

[Timotheus]

Shariah, hadith, sunnah etc is not Islam, its a corrupt tradition and an innovation. The Quran, which is the only legitimate source of religious law in Islam encourages peace, and cooperation and freedom of religion.