Dondi
Well-Known Member
I am hopeful that Victor's return will mean that he is willing to continue to address the issues his article has raised. If that's the case, I'd like to focus on the aspect of 'The Law', since that seems to be a prime concern of his. I believe that if we are going to go any further on this topic we must define what 'The Law' is and what is it's purpose.
'The Law' in question is the Mosaic Law as laid down in the Pentatuech, the first five books of the Hebrew bible. Specifically, it is those set of instructions and commandments given to God to Moses. The observable Law is contained in a set of 613 commandments, according to Judaism, at least in what is called the written Torah, though I suppose the Torah also includes the narrative portions as well as the practical law.
The question then arises, what is the purpose of this Law? We cannot separate the Mosiac Law out of the context of whence it came, that is through the formation of the nation of Israel. Recall that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob spent 400+ years in captivity in Egypt. And that the descendants identified themselves in accordance to the sons of Jacob, also named Israel (hence the name Israelites), which formed the Twelve Tribes. Now having been in Egypt for that long, and necessarily seeing several generations of sons living and dying in that environment, there would have been no doubt a heavily influence of Egyptian culture thrusted upon the Israel (bearing in mind that I'm following the textual account). That is not necessaily a bad thing, for the Egypt was rich in culture and advanced in many areas: Art, agriculture, trade, literature, mathemetics, medicine, military organization and tactics, etc, etc. Indeed, it's likely that many of these skills were beneficial when the Israelites constructed the Tabernacle and such when they struck out on their own. And in addition to this they were also subject to Egyptian Law.
At the risk of compromising accuracy, I refer to a portion of Wiki (such a solid source of info, I know) that discusses the legal system of Ancient Egypt, bearing in mind that anything in Wiki is subject to 'self-correction':
"The head of the legal system was officially the pharaoh, who was responsible for enacting laws, delivering justice, and maintaining law and order, a concept the ancient Egyptians referred to as Ma'at.[67] Although no legal codes from ancient Egypt survive, court documents show that Egyptian law was based on a common-sense view of right and wrong that emphasized reaching agreements and resolving conflicts rather than strictly adhering to a complicated set of statutes.[76] Local councils of elders, known as Kenbet in the New Kingdom, were responsible for ruling in court cases involving small claims and minor disputes.[67] More serious cases involving murder, major land transactions, and tomb robbery were referred to the Great Kenbet, over which the vizier or pharaoh presided. Plaintiffs and defendants were expected to represent themselves and were required to swear an oath that they had told the truth. In some cases, the state took on both the role of prosecutor and judge, and it could torture the accused with beatings to obtain a confession and the names of any co-conspirators. Whether the charges were trivial or serious, court scribes documented the complaint, testimony, and verdict of the case for future reference.[77]
Punishment for minor crimes involved either imposition of fines, beatings, facial mutilation, or exile, depending on the severity of the offense. Serious crimes such as murder and tomb robbery were punished by execution, carried out by decapitation, drowning, or impaling the criminal on a stake. Punishment could also be extended to the criminal's family.[67] Beginning in the New Kingdom, oracles played a major role in the legal system, dispensing justice in both civil and criminal cases. The procedure was to ask the god a "yes" or "no" question concerning the right or wrong of an issue. The god, carried by a number of priests, rendered judgment by choosing one or the other, moving forward or backward, or pointing to one of the answers written on a piece of papyrus or an ostracon.[78]"
Source: Wiki - Ancient Egypt - Legal System
Evidently, if this article is accurate, the Egypts followed a loose set of laws, yet trangressions of such could lead to dire consequences, depending on the infraction.
In addition to this legal system, one must consider the religious aspect of Egypt that were heavily prevalent. Pharaonic rule was based on the divine right of kings. In the Old Kingdom, the Pharoah was worshiped as a deity, but by the time of Israel's captivity, worship was relegated to the Egyptian gods, in which a sect of priests used oracles to communicate to the gods on behalf of the pharaoh. (It is interesting to note that during the New Kingdom period, for a brief time Egypt consolidated their gods to a monothiestic system). Religious rituals were woven with daily ceremonials, feasts, and celebrations set monthly and seasonally. Of interest, the Pharoah was the only one who could 'see' the god(s) face to face. The rituals included hymns, music, dancers, offerings, recitations, and animal sacrifices.
I point all this out because this sets a precedence for the mindset of the Israelites upon there escape from Egypt and it plays directly into the introduction of the Mosaic Law. My contention is that the Mosaic Law is a substitute to the Egyptian law that they were accustomed to and was designed to wean the Israelites from that system. And indeed, Moses had to contend with the people who reverted back to the system when he came down from Mount Sinai as saw that they built the golden calf.
I'm stopping here as a breather and let others comment on this. I'm being detailed in this subject of 'The Law', because it has a direct bearing on later discussions in regard to Paul. And it will prove to follow logically into the rebuttal. I'm hopeful to hear from Mr Gareffa in this regard.
'The Law' in question is the Mosaic Law as laid down in the Pentatuech, the first five books of the Hebrew bible. Specifically, it is those set of instructions and commandments given to God to Moses. The observable Law is contained in a set of 613 commandments, according to Judaism, at least in what is called the written Torah, though I suppose the Torah also includes the narrative portions as well as the practical law.
The question then arises, what is the purpose of this Law? We cannot separate the Mosiac Law out of the context of whence it came, that is through the formation of the nation of Israel. Recall that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob spent 400+ years in captivity in Egypt. And that the descendants identified themselves in accordance to the sons of Jacob, also named Israel (hence the name Israelites), which formed the Twelve Tribes. Now having been in Egypt for that long, and necessarily seeing several generations of sons living and dying in that environment, there would have been no doubt a heavily influence of Egyptian culture thrusted upon the Israel (bearing in mind that I'm following the textual account). That is not necessaily a bad thing, for the Egypt was rich in culture and advanced in many areas: Art, agriculture, trade, literature, mathemetics, medicine, military organization and tactics, etc, etc. Indeed, it's likely that many of these skills were beneficial when the Israelites constructed the Tabernacle and such when they struck out on their own. And in addition to this they were also subject to Egyptian Law.
At the risk of compromising accuracy, I refer to a portion of Wiki (such a solid source of info, I know) that discusses the legal system of Ancient Egypt, bearing in mind that anything in Wiki is subject to 'self-correction':
"The head of the legal system was officially the pharaoh, who was responsible for enacting laws, delivering justice, and maintaining law and order, a concept the ancient Egyptians referred to as Ma'at.[67] Although no legal codes from ancient Egypt survive, court documents show that Egyptian law was based on a common-sense view of right and wrong that emphasized reaching agreements and resolving conflicts rather than strictly adhering to a complicated set of statutes.[76] Local councils of elders, known as Kenbet in the New Kingdom, were responsible for ruling in court cases involving small claims and minor disputes.[67] More serious cases involving murder, major land transactions, and tomb robbery were referred to the Great Kenbet, over which the vizier or pharaoh presided. Plaintiffs and defendants were expected to represent themselves and were required to swear an oath that they had told the truth. In some cases, the state took on both the role of prosecutor and judge, and it could torture the accused with beatings to obtain a confession and the names of any co-conspirators. Whether the charges were trivial or serious, court scribes documented the complaint, testimony, and verdict of the case for future reference.[77]
Punishment for minor crimes involved either imposition of fines, beatings, facial mutilation, or exile, depending on the severity of the offense. Serious crimes such as murder and tomb robbery were punished by execution, carried out by decapitation, drowning, or impaling the criminal on a stake. Punishment could also be extended to the criminal's family.[67] Beginning in the New Kingdom, oracles played a major role in the legal system, dispensing justice in both civil and criminal cases. The procedure was to ask the god a "yes" or "no" question concerning the right or wrong of an issue. The god, carried by a number of priests, rendered judgment by choosing one or the other, moving forward or backward, or pointing to one of the answers written on a piece of papyrus or an ostracon.[78]"
Source: Wiki - Ancient Egypt - Legal System
Evidently, if this article is accurate, the Egypts followed a loose set of laws, yet trangressions of such could lead to dire consequences, depending on the infraction.
In addition to this legal system, one must consider the religious aspect of Egypt that were heavily prevalent. Pharaonic rule was based on the divine right of kings. In the Old Kingdom, the Pharoah was worshiped as a deity, but by the time of Israel's captivity, worship was relegated to the Egyptian gods, in which a sect of priests used oracles to communicate to the gods on behalf of the pharaoh. (It is interesting to note that during the New Kingdom period, for a brief time Egypt consolidated their gods to a monothiestic system). Religious rituals were woven with daily ceremonials, feasts, and celebrations set monthly and seasonally. Of interest, the Pharoah was the only one who could 'see' the god(s) face to face. The rituals included hymns, music, dancers, offerings, recitations, and animal sacrifices.
I point all this out because this sets a precedence for the mindset of the Israelites upon there escape from Egypt and it plays directly into the introduction of the Mosaic Law. My contention is that the Mosaic Law is a substitute to the Egyptian law that they were accustomed to and was designed to wean the Israelites from that system. And indeed, Moses had to contend with the people who reverted back to the system when he came down from Mount Sinai as saw that they built the golden calf.
I'm stopping here as a breather and let others comment on this. I'm being detailed in this subject of 'The Law', because it has a direct bearing on later discussions in regard to Paul. And it will prove to follow logically into the rebuttal. I'm hopeful to hear from Mr Gareffa in this regard.
