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Terrence
Guest
cyberpi said:
So from one scripture you're going to build your theology? You simply cannot do that...thats how cults get started. The scripture...all 66 books, are apart of an intergrated message system. Learn to read it as a whole and take it in context, OK?
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Terrence
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kenod said:Hi Terrence, I certainly do believe that Jesus is "fully man and fully God" ... in fact I believe Jesus is FULLY God. I do not see three distinct, co-equal Persons in the Scriptures.
Not sure about being a modalist ... though I am probably what some might call a Sabellian heretic
I wont paint you with the "hertic" brush but it seems to me you have the [SIZE=-1]modal monarchism view of the Trinity: God is One but has manifested himself in three different modes at different times. Is that what you believe? I believe in the One God who is triune in nature: Father, Son, Spirit, as seperate but coequal and coeternal and only different in relationship. These make up the Godhead. [/SIZE]
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cyberpi
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I try not to build theology... I try to learn it. I recognize that the context from one person to another, one prophet to another, one century to another, and even one event to another are each unique and different. If not, then what exactly does the word 'context' mean? The bible? The bible has many authors. My life has many authors. Is that a problem?Terrence said:
If you disagree that the bible has many authors: the characters in the bible are judged by God (swt). Correct? If God were the only author of their lives, then God would be judging his own work. I'm not saying that God is not behind the scenes in every one of the books. I am saying that God is not the only author in every one of the books of the bible. Am I wrong?
Terrence said:
God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so He must be all three all the time. I see them as three "offices" of the one God, rather than three separate Persons.
I know Trintarian doctrine says the three share the same substance, but it still sounds to me like three gods. It seems no one can explain what "one substance" actually means.
When the Trinitarian interpretation of the Godhead uses words like "generated", "begotten" and "proceeds" to explain the relationship of the Son and Holy Spirit to the Father, it seems to indicate they have a subordinate position. The co-equal status of the three Persons was not officially formulated until near the end of the 4th century, which is another cause of concern.
One God revealing Himself in three different ways, makes far more sense to me.
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Terrence
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cyberpi said:
Sorry, but I dont understand your point. I simply said that you cant take a verse and build a theology out of it because that would be isegesis and it leads to hersy. What you ought to do, however, is look at scripture in context as well as compare the clear scriptures of the topic, with the not so clear ones, to get a better idea of what is being discussed. These are just some the principles that should be applied when studying the scriptures.
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Terrence
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kenod said:
It does make more sense. But, I dont see that is what the Bible describes though. The Trinty is a hard doctrine to explain and even harder to grasp. I dont think anyone could rightly grasp it, at least on this side eternity. The Trinity leaves us in awe and we fall prostrate in worship over this God who is Trinue in nature and yet some how is only one. But agian, the Modalist interpretation of the Trinity DOES make a lot more sense!
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
kenod said:
God called it a "great mystery" in the bible.. that means that our brains cannot comprehend it by ourselves. Its one of those truths that are revealed to us by the Spirit... you have to accept a lot of what Gods about by faith alone .. Its hard sometimes..
Faithfulservant said:
I agree that faith is more important than understanding.
I'm not sure that the oneness of God is so difficult to understand though - rather, it is the incarnation of God that is called a "great mystery".
1 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Student1975
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The Incarnation is a paradox and God's being a mystery. The genious creed of Chalcedon is a paradox; "two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the unity, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son". That "reconciles" (for lack of better word) the paradox that Jesus in the Bible is both identified as God (John 20:28 etc) and described as a man, whom God was enabling to do miracles (Acts 10:38). I like the Modalist understanding for its "clearcut" Monotheism, but I am not convinced about it being as good as the Trinity understanding. One thing I am sure about; the doctrine of eternal sonship/eternal generation is wrong. Jesus did pre-exist as God, not as Son.
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mee
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Jesus , when on the earth was the greatest man that ever lived because he was taught by his father Jehovah the most high. psalm 83;18 and those who listen to Jesus have the best teacher there could beJesus never took credit for what he taught but humbly acknowledged: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." "Just as the Father taught me I speak these things."—John 7:16; 8:28; 12:49.
BlaznFattyz
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if god is all knowing; ominscient, alpha and omega, then jesus christ is not an afterthought but was always. although at times he appeared as the angel of the lord or referred to as the word, he was also shown as the messiah and the son to those prophets as they were filled with the holy spirit. because god is outside our time and knows all things from beginning to end, nothing being an afterthought but known before it was called into existence, that is why jesus is referred to as the eternal son. indeed, it takes a stretch of the imagination to wonder about god.Student1975 said:
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cyberpi
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I take the words from Jesus (pbuh) as expressed in the Gospels. Who are you taking from? Paul? Thomas as expressed in John?Terrence said:
Calling me a heretic? Fine, I'm a heretic. Produce a quote from Jesus (pbuh) from any source where Jesus claimed to be God (swt). Any source on the planet. Lets identify and expose your source.
If you find just one, then I will produce 20 more quotes from the bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as something other than God (swt).
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Terrence
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cyberpi said:
I dont remember calling you a heretic, but if the shoe fits... As for Jesus claiming to be something other than God, I'm not too sure about that. I'm fully away that He made the claims to be Son of God and Son of man, etc., but He never denied His diety. As for where He claimed to be God...Um...that will take a bible lesson, because there are so many scriptures where Jesus shows Himself to have only the attributes of God, hence the reason for the Blasphemy changer against him..."You a mere man make yourself to be God." Its crazy to me how the Jews of Jesus' day understood Jesus claims of being God, but people today dont. All that said, look at John 8:58..."Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus qouted in present tense, the name that God gave for Himself in Exodus, "I am." Notice how the Jews once against understood Jesus' claim, because they picked up stones to kill Him. Jesus is God, that it!
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Terrence
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mee said:
Jesus is both God and Man (hypostatic Union). Make sure you got the right Jesus. If your Christology is wrong or your understanding of soterology is wrong, you will not have salvation..."He who has the Son has the Father who sent Him."
Please make sure you have the RIGHT Jesus!
BlaznFattyz
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it is without a doubt the ones present with jesus knew what he was claiming. it is unfortunate there are some who try to twist what happened into something else to fit their own preconceived notions and agenda. the acceptance of jesus christ needs to be personal proclamation of faith so god sees you accept his son, therefore you accept god.Terrence said:
Student1975
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BlaznFattyz said:
I say the most common understanding confuses the symbolism of Jesus as the Incarnated wisdom/word/message/cause of God with the literalness of God being Incarnate as a man / a son of God. The Son then is God as man / the Godman. You can not find the term "eternal son" in the Bible. This is btw the position of certain theologians such as Adam Clarke, J. Coffmann, A. Pink etc.
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Terrence
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Student1975 said:
Are you saying that Jesus was only a symblosim of God in the flesh? If so, where do you get that information? Also, there are many words that arent in the Bible that we use in thelogy, e.g., demon, trinity, rapture, bible, etc. Just because "eternal son" isnt a word in the Bible, doesnt mean that the Bible doesnt teach that Jesus isnt the Eternal Son of God and is God. Lastly, you mentioned that Author Pink believes that Jesus isnt litterally believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Where do you get that information?
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cyberpi
Guest
Thats it? Ego I-me? Haya Haya? Same same the one and only God(swt)?Terrence said:
The English word 'deity' is in the KJV zero times. So what is a deity? Who wrote the concept of deity? Are you calling every soul a deity?
'I am' is in the KJV 699 times. Is every 'I am' referring to God (swt)? Tell me again, who is picking from a verse or two out of context to support a theory? Are you aware of the possible combinations?
John 17:14,16 (Jesus praying to God) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
So what date do you think I am? Birth? The memory in a high chair when my eyes were first opened? After Abraham (pbuh) but before today? Are you advising modern Jews to pick up stones every time someone says I am? Perhaps there is something to learn from 'I am'. Is anyone not able to say this, "I choose therefore I am"?
Terrence said:
I certainly believe that Jesus Christ is God. However, I too have a problem with the words "eternal son". I think that the Scriptures which indicate the pre-existence of Jesus are more easily explained as being references to His being God Himself (Jehovah - I Am - Father), rather than the "begotten Son".