shadowman said:ill post up some articles too
Shadowman, I think www links might be more appropriate in a discussion forum than long articles. Something called protocol.
shadowman said:ill post up some articles too
cyberpi said:The context was: Jesus was in the flesh when he said God is a Spirit and needs to be worshipped in Truth and in Spirit. (John 4:24).
kenod said:Hi Terrence, I certainly do believe that Jesus is "fully man and fully God" ... in fact I believe Jesus is FULLY God. I do not see three distinct, co-equal Persons in the Scriptures.
Not sure about being a modalist ... though I am probably what some might call a Sabellian heretic
I try not to build theology... I try to learn it. I recognize that the context from one person to another, one prophet to another, one century to another, and even one event to another are each unique and different. If not, then what exactly does the word 'context' mean? The bible? The bible has many authors. My life has many authors. Is that a problem?Terrence said:So from one scripture you're going to build your theology? You simply cannot do that...thats how cults get started. The scripture...all 66 books, are apart of an intergrated message system. Learn to read it as a whole and take it in context, OK?
Terrence said:I wont paint you with the "heretic" brush but it seems to me you have the modal monarchism view of the Trinity: God is One but has manifested himself in three different modes at different times. Is that what you believe? I believe in the One God who is triune in nature: Father, Son, Spirit, as seperate but coequal and coeternal and only different in relationship. These make up the Godhead.
cyberpi said:I try not to build theology... I try to learn it. I recognize that the context from one person to another, one prophet to another, one century to another, and even one event to another are each unique and different. If not, then what exactly does the word 'context' mean? The bible? The bible has many authors. My life has many authors. Is that a problem?
If you disagree that the bible has many authors: the characters in the bible are judged by God (swt). Correct? If God were the only author of their lives, then God would be judging his own work. I'm not saying that God is not behind the scenes in every one of the books. I am saying that God is not the only author in every one of the books of the bible. Am I wrong?
kenod said:God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so He must be all three all the time. I see them as three "offices" of the one God, rather than three separate Persons.
I know Trintarian doctrine says the three share the same substance, but it still sounds to me like three gods. It seems no one can explain what "one substance" actually means.
When the Trinitarian interpretation of the Godhead uses words like "generated", "begotten" and "proceeds" to explain the relationship of the Son and Holy Spirit to the Father, it seems to indicate they have a subordinate position. The co-equal status of the three Persons was not officially formulated until near the end of the 4th century, which is another cause of concern.
One God revealing Himself in three different ways, makes far more sense to me.
kenod said:God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, so He must be all three all the time. I see them as three "offices" of the one God, rather than three separate Persons.
I know Trintarian doctrine says the three share the same substance, but it still sounds to me like three gods. It seems no one can explain what "one substance" actually means.
When the Trinitarian interpretation of the Godhead uses words like "generated", "begotten" and "proceeds" to explain the relationship of the Son and Holy Spirit to the Father, it seems to indicate they have a subordinate position. The co-equal status of the three Persons was not officially formulated until near the end of the 4th century, which is another cause of concern.
One God revealing Himself in three different ways, makes far more sense to me.
Faithfulservant said:God called it a "great mystery" in the bible.. that means that our brains cannot comprehend it by ourselves. Its one of those truths that are revealed to us by the Spirit... you have to accept a lot of what Gods about by faith alone .. Its hard sometimes..
if god is all knowing; ominscient, alpha and omega, then jesus christ is not an afterthought but was always. although at times he appeared as the angel of the lord or referred to as the word, he was also shown as the messiah and the son to those prophets as they were filled with the holy spirit. because god is outside our time and knows all things from beginning to end, nothing being an afterthought but known before it was called into existence, that is why jesus is referred to as the eternal son. indeed, it takes a stretch of the imagination to wonder about god.Student1975 said:One thing I am sure about; the doctrine of eternal sonship/eternal generation is wrong. Jesus did pre-exist as God, not as Son.
I take the words from Jesus (pbuh) as expressed in the Gospels. Who are you taking from? Paul? Thomas as expressed in John?Terrence said:Sorry, but I dont understand your point. I simply said that you cant take a verse and build a theology out of it because that would be isegesis and it leads to hersy. What you ought to do, however, is look at scripture in context as well as compare the clear scriptures of the topic, with the not so clear ones, to get a better idea of what is being discussed. These are just some the principles that should be applied when studying the scriptures.
cyberpi said:I take the words from Jesus (pbuh) as expressed in the Gospels. Who are you taking from? Paul? Thomas as expressed in John?
Calling me a heretic? Fine, I'm a heretic. Produce a quote from Jesus (pbuh) from any source where Jesus claimed to be God (swt). Any source on the planet. Lets identify and expose your source.
If you find just one, then I will produce 20 more quotes from the bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as something other than God (swt).
mee said:Jesus , when on the earth was the greatest man that ever lived because he was taught by his father Jehovah the most high. psalm 83;18 and those who listen to Jesus have the best teacher there could beJesus never took credit for what he taught but humbly acknowledged: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." "Just as the Father taught me I speak these things."—John 7:16; 8:28; 12:49.
it is without a doubt the ones present with jesus knew what he was claiming. it is unfortunate there are some who try to twist what happened into something else to fit their own preconceived notions and agenda. the acceptance of jesus christ needs to be personal proclamation of faith so god sees you accept his son, therefore you accept god.Terrence said:...there are so many scriptures where Jesus shows Himself to have only the attributes of God, hence the reason for the Blasphemy changer against him..."You a mere man make yourself to be God." Its crazy to me how the Jews of Jesus' day understood Jesus claims of being God, but people today dont. All that said, look at John 8:58..."Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus qouted in present tense, the name that God gave for Himself in Exodus, "I am." Notice how the Jews once against understood Jesus' claim, because they picked up stones to kill Him. Jesus is God, that it!
BlaznFattyz said:if god is all knowing; ominscient, alpha and omega, then jesus christ is not an afterthought but was always. although at times he appeared as the angel of the lord or referred to as the word, he was also shown as the messiah and the son to those prophets as they were filled with the holy spirit. because god is outside our time and knows all things from beginning to end, nothing being an afterthought but known before it was called into existence, that is why jesus is referred to as the eternal son. indeed, it takes a stretch of the imagination to wonder about god.
Student1975 said:I say the most common understanding confuses the symbolism of Jesus as the Incarnated wisdom/word/message/cause of God with the literalness of God being Incarnate as a man / a son of God. The Son then is God as man / the Godman. You can not find the term "eternal son" in the Bible. This is btw the position of certain theologians such as Adam Clarke, J. Coffmann, A. Pink etc.
Thats it? Ego I-me? Haya Haya? Same same the one and only God(swt)?Terrence said:I dont remember calling you a heretic, but if the shoe fits... As for Jesus claiming to be something other than God, I'm not too sure about that. I'm fully away that He made the claims to be Son of God and Son of man, etc., but He never denied His diety. As for where He claimed to be God...Um...that will take a bible lesson, because there are so many scriptures where Jesus shows Himself to have only the attributes of God, hence the reason for the Blasphemy changer against him..."You a mere man make yourself to be God." Its crazy to me how the Jews of Jesus' day understood Jesus claims of being God, but people today dont. All that said, look at John 8:58..."Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus qouted in present tense, the name that God gave for Himself in Exodus, "I am." Notice how the Jews once against understood Jesus' claim, because they picked up stones to kill Him. Jesus is God, that it!
Terrence said:Just because "eternal son" isnt a word in the Bible, doesnt mean that the Bible doesnt teach that Jesus isnt the Eternal Son of God and is God.