Blinded by Belief - A Great Paradox

Ciel said:
Joseph, Yes, beyond words.

I am reading such extraordinary things here from every one's contribution
We do indeed live in extraordinary times. It always interests me, the reason behind the words, the inner knowing composing the outer, the reason why certain subject matter is brought forward, why so much talk of lifelessness from some for example, yet not in a negative sense. I find myself aware of life in a phase of transition as never before. I am seeing life reborn with new eyes. And wonder how much life it's self knows

- c -
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Yes, Ciel myself also.

Saltmeister,
Super post. You are indeed not blind nor blinded by belief.

Love in Christ.
JM
 
cyberpi said:
What I have said is dead. It is spent energy. There is no life in them except in whatever life someone living provides them. The words don't reproduce themselves or repent for misleading you. The words are not a virus that propagate without your choosing. Someone who is alive has the choice to pick up the words, make copies, and do something with them, but the words themselves are a corpse just as the neurons in my brain are a corpse. People are living. When I eat food it is killed, cooked, and even then I choose. When I hear words with the ears or see them with the eyes it is the same. The words are a few spent bits on a hard-drive, and maybe a few spent neurons in your brain since you chose to read them... when they go they are gone. Never gone from this world... but committed to spirit where the eyes can no longer see them.

At best I think you could say a word is like a seed. Reminds me of a parable. A seed only lives if you give it water, energy, and nutrients.

My thoughts, guided or misguided.
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Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, only changed, then I submit a word uttered is never defunct. Like the pebble in the pond, the ripples created never disappear. They may be affected by other such ripples from other pebbles thrown in, but then they combine to form a different ripple, or to add to the strength of another.

Likewise, words written. They are never dead, but lie in potential, waiting to be read, then their power is once again released, changed and carried on in other forms (words stimulate thought with helps develope character, which is impressed upon others, who develop thought, and so on), and never really disappears, nor stops affecting the existence of all.

I don't think you thoughts are mis-guided. I just like to carry the point out as many decimal points as possible, to show the big picture.
 
Quahom1 said:
Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, only changed, then I submit a word uttered is never defunct. Like the pebble in the pond, the ripples created never disappear. They may be affected by other such ripples from other pebbles thrown in, but then they combine to form a different ripple, or to add to the strength of another.

Likewise, words written. They are never dead, but lie in potential, waiting to be read, then their power is once again released, changed and carried on in other forms (words stimulate thought with helps develope character, which is impressed upon others, who develop thought, and so on), and never really disappears, nor stops affecting the existence of all.

I don't think you thoughts are mis-guided. I just like to carry the point out as many decimal points as possible, to show the big picture.
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I will carry the decimal point beyond where I can see it... everything here is being recorded in absolute perfect detail. Any accoustic ripples or electron paths eventually find themselves as long wave radiation that leaves the planet. My physical eyes don't see long wave radiation and they can not see the light leaving the planet, but I know that its there. All of the information to perfectly recreate history exists in a dispersed state... in spirit.

If you recognize that energy changes state then you should realize that energy is changing state in one direction. It is not being recycled. I consider the word 'living' to be on the edge of that conversion. Furthermore I do not consider a hurricane or any uncontrolled release of energy to be living.

As I have also said in these forums, realizing this definition of spirit as spoken in the gospels, a solution to global warming is found in the gospels and can be summed up in a single word.
 
JosephM said:
Man is a wondrous creature. Even the very thought that we are conscious at all is enough to baffle the most intelligent of men. Yet it is even more amazing that this wondrous creature we call man that has been mysteriously endowed with a mind and reason will voluntarily give it up rather than use these faculties. He gives it up to have a book he can believe in with all the answers spelled out for him and then attributes this book he knows was written by men to the divine creator.

What is it that would cause a man to do such a thing?

Inevitably a man will come to the place where the entertainment of this world no longer holds his interest and the questions of life come foremost before his mind. In his sincere search for his creator he reaches out and cries out for meaning. And when this desire reaches to his very core, something happens. He has a revelation or communications with the very essence of life itself. This he instinctively and understandingly recognizes as God. And it is revealed to him that this God loves and has been with him always and is not far away. Many Christians call this the new birth experience but it is in no way an experience that is limited to a particular religion.

From this point the man "knows" that He has a spirit and connection to the unknown questions of life itself. What he does from this point is most paramount in his journey. He usually has this burning desire to know more of this phenomena and connection that resembles finding a lost treasure. He becomes renewed and excited in purpose to know more and live in this experience he has just had. Not having all the answers, in his impatience he searches the data of his mind and recall teachings about a book of answers to his questions whose author he was taught is God. And if that knowledge was missing he shares his experience with others having had the same experience and is passed on to this same conclusion. His focus now is placed on a book. In it he seeks to find more of his experience and inevitably makes a decision of mind to accept this conclusion as a fact and through it he continues his search.

Though many things in this book neither go well with his mind nor reason he makes a decision to believe the book by a concept he is told is faith. He then uses his intellect to make it fit within that concept and puts the reason and mind as inferior to the book itself. After all, he has made a conscious decision to believe the author is God. In essence he gives up his right to doubt, question or otherwise disagree with the book whose words reinforces his decision as being correct. He believes he is in the process of learning yet his learning is always made subject to the premises of the book he has made a decision to believe in. His thinking process must always be made limited to the revelations of the book which he no longer separates from God.

To the outsider, this seems absurd, ridiculous and foolish. Yet to the believer the book speaks of itself as foolishness to the mind and therefore justifies the mind=s belief in this newfound faith. Because of the words in the book the believer sees others as blinded and lost. He sees himself as special and to be rewarded in a future life for his belief in this newfound faith concept. The book is purpose driven and gives him purpose by its command to make more disciples of the book or his newfound God. He will be so daring as to refer to his book as the Word of God as though that were the same essence of life that he connected with in the beginning. And thus starts a vicious cycle.

Reason cannot deliver him from this cycle because his decision to believe has negated its use. History, contradictions or errors in the book have no power over his belief as he is trapped within the confines of the book which declares all others to be blinded. It declares the understanding of all the concepts or premises of the book to be foolishness to the natural mind and beyond its comprehension. Yet the fact that he is blinded by this belief is hidden from him.

What can be done for him? Nothing! He must make his own choices and decisions. Those on the outside can only continue in love to include him as one on a journey and an equal partner of God's wondrous creation.



--------------------

Love in Christ,
JM
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Joe,

This is a wonderful and well thought out writing, though it might spark the faith vs reason debate in many persons. Following the posts in this thread reminds me how attached we do get to beliefs that are so intimately tied to our sense of self. If a cherished belief is questioned it seems that the whole of self is coming under attack, and retaliation is the expected result.
I seem to remember a story told by the Jesuit Anthony Demello that when a teacher gave a talk about the word "God" being the final obstacle to true understanding the local priest went haywire with anger and upbraided the teacher something fierce.
The teacher meekly replied that "...the donkey that brings you to the house does not take you in the door"

peace
Mark
 
Paladin said:
Joe,

This is a wonderful and well thought out writing, though it might spark the faith vs reason debate in many persons. Following the posts in this thread reminds me how attached we do get to beliefs that are so intimately tied to our sense of self. If a cherished belief is questioned it seems that the whole of self is coming under attack, and retaliation is the expected result.
I seem to remember a story told by the Jesuit Anthony Demello that when a teacher gave a talk about the word "God" being the final obstacle to true understanding the local priest went haywire with anger and upbraided the teacher something fierce.
The teacher meekly replied that "...the donkey that brings you to the house does not take you in the door"

peace
Mark
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Thanks Mark, It does seem to be so true..... Love your little story. Stories seem to speak so much more than an abundance of words.

Joseph
 
Paladin said:
Joe,

This is a wonderful and well thought out writing, though it might spark the faith vs reason debate in many persons. Following the posts in this thread reminds me how attached we do get to beliefs that are so intimately tied to our sense of self. If a cherished belief is questioned it seems that the whole of self is coming under attack, and retaliation is the expected result.
I seem to remember a story told by the Jesuit Anthony Demello that when a teacher gave a talk about the word "God" being the final obstacle to true understanding the local priest went haywire with anger and upbraided the teacher something fierce.
The teacher meekly replied that "...the donkey that brings you to the house does not take you in the door"

peace
Mark
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If the donkey has a soul then the donkey knew the way. The student is not above the donkey that led them. The blind that leads the blind anywhere will fall in a pit. So if the donkey knew the way anywhere good then he has already been there. I submit the two self-righteous will enter the abode they build, but the donkey will have treasure in heaven. Either the donkey led and understood Love, or the donkey followed and understood Faith. The other two understood neither... in your example.
 
JosephM said:
From reading your post here I believe we are now closer to being on the same wavelength.

In my post I wrote "Not having all the answers, in his impatience he searches the data of his mind and recall teachings about a book (the Bible) of answers to his questions whose author he was taught is God. And if that knowledge was missing he shares his experience with others having had the same experience and is passed on to this same conclusion.
<...>
PS The subjective experience that I was referring to is a personal experience where 'knowing' is dropped into ones consciousness without effort and reveals truth that is exclusive of doubt as if it were already known and you are waking up to the realization of it. That is the best I can do with words at this time.
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Does this help? {match the colors} :)
John 14:15-18 said:
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
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Oops! I forgot to also match colors between JM's statement of "waking up to the realization of it." with John 14:26 "will teach you all things." in the above post. :eek:
 
Paladin said:
This is a wonderful and well thought out writing, though it might spark the faith vs reason debate in many persons. Following the posts in this thread reminds me how attached we do get to beliefs that are so intimately tied to our sense of self. If a cherished belief is questioned it seems that the whole of self is coming under attack, and retaliation is the expected result.
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Paladin said:
the donkey that brings you to the house does not take you in the door
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I wasn't sure what this meant at first. I am slowly starting to understand what it means.

So are our beliefs the donkey that can't go through the door?

It follows then that our beliefs can take us to the door of God's home, but if we don't dismount and get off the donkey's back we won't get through the door?

Did I get that right?
 
Saltmeister said:
I wasn't sure what this meant at first. I am slowly starting to understand what it means.

So are our beliefs the donkey that can't go through the door?

It follows then that our beliefs can take us to the door of God's home, but if we don't dismount and get off the donkey's back we won't get through the door?

Did I get that right?
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Brilliant Saltmeister. Absolutely. Meister Eckhart taught that by becoming a "virgin" in respect to our ego attachment to ideas is the only way we can receive the Christ into ourselves.

"If I possessed such great intelligence that all the images that anyone had ever conceived, together with all those which are in God himself existed in my mind, but in such away that I was free of an ego attachment to them in what I did or in what I refrain from doing, neither with a before or an after, but rather I remained free and empty in this present moment for the most precious will of God, constantly ready to fulfill it, then I should be a virgin unburdened by any images, just as certainly as I was before I existed."
-Meister Eckhart
Sermon #13

Peace
Mark
 
You see, this is not to say that holding a belief is wrong, quite the contrary,it can help to free us, liberate us in fact. But to hold onto our perception of what something means can be our undoing. To be willing to see a belief, and see it in a deeper more meaningful way can lead to a closer walk with Christ. I think perhaps that was the intent of the OP, to help unburden us of a restrictive idea and allow us to delve more deeply into understanding, to put away childish things again and again as we grow in our spirituality, as we grow in Christ.

Peace

Mark
 
Paladin said:
You see, this is not to say that holding a belief is wrong, quite the contrary,it can help to free us, liberate us in fact. But to hold onto our perception of what something means can be our undoing. To be willing to see a belief, and see it in a deeper more meaningful way can lead to a closer walk with Christ. I think perhaps that was the intent of the OP, to help unburden us of a restrictive idea and allow us to delve more deeply into understanding, to put away childish things again and again as we grow in our spirituality, as we grow in Christ.

Peace

Mark
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Wonderful.. And you know.... stories seem to do the best job Mark, as saltmeister grasped it well ..... and to one who doesn't get the story there is nothing to get angry about as he can be entertained with the story and then forget it. Story telling can be a real gift which can say more in a paragraph then my abundance of words that at times provokes and stirs up strife. Thanks for your wisdom Mark.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
Meister Eckhart taught that by becoming a "virgin" in respect to our ego attachment to ideas is the only way we can receive the Christ into ourselves.

Indeed – yet Eckhart was 'attached' to the Church and her teaching. We should not lose sight of the context within which he preached.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
Meister Eckhart taught that by becoming a "virgin" in respect to our ego attachment to ideas is the only way we can receive the Christ into ourselves.

Indeed – yet Eckhart was 'attached' to the Church and her teaching. We should not lose sight of the context within which he preached.

Thomas
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Thomas,
It is my personal view that a persons background is not to be considered in context as to the words spoken. Truth spoken stands on its own regardless of the instrument used. It seems to me somewhere in the OT even a jackass spoke the words of God. One can often miss the message because context is taken from the ego as meaningful when it is rather always meaningless in spiritual things.

Just another view to consider

Love in Christ,
JM
 
I find that a belief is not evil, but what conjured up the belief is evil. If there is a donkey that doesn't enter heaven it is a person's flesh and brain.

The English have degraded the ego for pride so that ego means a variety of things, but I am the conscious ego. I differentiate the conscious mind as the portion of the mind that I see. I am aware there is a portion of the mind that I do not see, but I can make use of it. It is programmable like a computer... but I will call that portion a blind spot. Some other important blind spots to realize are the souls of other people. I only know a person by what they say and do.

I'm glad that hypotheticals are accepted here again, because I find that hypotheticals are a necessary way to communicate, and I have answered them nearly daily in the classrooms of my education. Or should I say every day that I ate from a tree of knowledge.

So I will present a hypothetical, an anology, that I have presented before but often with adverse reactions. I find that the body, heart, and mind are identical to a car with an engine and an onboard computer. I am guided by the light that comes in through the windshield. I am guided by street signs, billboards, road bumps, and other cars. The windshield is the light of the car. It is true I have also found that there is something behind me in the back seat providing directions, but I can not quite see where all ideas come from. When I drive to a recommended destination I can determine if it was a good recommendation. While I would like to arrive to a destination, not knowing the way is a real hinderance. A map (book) helps. I am in control of the steering wheel at all times, but darn it if I don't know where I'm going. As I travel I take notes and write down in the computer where I've been. Sometimes I stop and ask for directions. Nowadays I prefer GPS but a map book helps. This thread seems to indicate that a person must throw out a faulty map to find the way. As if a faulty map... a belief... is what brings darkness. I suggest that not testing or thinking about the map brings uncertainty. I see no reward for having a true but untravelled map. It is true that a map with a LIE can be a real stumbler, kind of like being given BAD directions. But in truth having no information at all is the real darkness. Driving in a snow storm with the windshield plastered... at night... is even greater darkness. While following a LIE may cause me to drive in a circle wasting time, or to arrive at a wrong destination, at least I can learn from it. But if I had no information to begin with then I am truly stumbling around... then I am driving blind. I don't jettison faulty directions to find good directions. If I come across different directions I compare them to the map that I already have and I make a choice of where to drive next. If I take some directions and they work then I am certainly going to be full of joy and write them down. I don't jettison the bad directions... I learn where the bad directions came from and what I can do to recognize the source of them. If I can communicate in any way with someone to help them away from the bad directions then I am going to do it. But I don't jettison a belief... I learn from it and I retain it so that I can even continue to study it and recognize it for what it was.

Objectve and subjective as used here seem to me to be the same things... things seen in the mind, but I'd say that something re-measurable again and again is objective whereas all memory... my map... is subjective no matter how objective I wish it to be. Whether I see something in my thoughts or I see something through my eyes they are equally real and came from somewhere.

Two very important lessons or parts of the map to travel is by Love and by Faith. Love is like towing a car that is lost or broken down on the side of the road, and Faith is like leading or following another car to a destination.

So in summary, if this thread is trying to say that people should keep an open mind then great... keep an open mind. If this thread is trying to say that the bible might have some lies or errors in it then great... I'm confident it does. If this thread is trying to say that people have to jettison a belief from the bible to see something internal, then try defining what that belief is. Otherwise this thread presents darkness to improve vision. Red flags are raised in my mind and I am calling foul. I do not improve my vision by closing my eyes to a belief. I see that Faith, a relationship between souls, or a relationship with God, is a necessary way to learn all things. I have no Faith with an earthly book, but I will place Faith in the souls of the authors. If there are weeds or lies in it then I will learn what the weeds are.
 
cyberpi said:
(snip)

So in summary, if this thread is trying to say that people should keep an open mind then great... keep an open mind. If this thread is trying to say that the bible might have some lies or errors in it then great... I'm confident it does. If this thread is trying to say that people have to jettison a belief from the bible to see something internal, then try defining what that belief is. Otherwise this thread presents darkness to improve vision. Red flags are raised in my mind and I am calling foul. I do not improve my vision by closing my eyes to a belief. I see that Faith, a relationship between souls, or a relationship with God, is a necessary way to learn all things. I have no Faith with an earthly book, but I will place Faith in the souls of the authors. If there are weeds or lies in it then I will learn what the weeds are.
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Yes, basically this thread is saying one needs to keep an open open mind and points out that it is not possible if one in advance closes his mind by deciding there can be no errors in a book because it is written by God. It does not say one has to jettison a belief but only that all beliefs should not be so fixed as to eliminate other possibilities which includes that the Book may not be innerent and written by God. Failure to be open, essentially blinds one to further progress toward truth.

Love in Christ,
JM
 
JosephM said:
Failure to be open, essentially blinds one to further progress toward truth.
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and ...further progress towards Faith and good deeds? ...telling the Truth in all circumstances? ...Loving one's alledged enemies? ...progress in one's relationship with God (swt)? ...regular prayer? ...confession? ...forgiveness? ...patience and constancy? ...keeping commandments?

I don't know where the bible says to close one's mind but I do see errancy in the belief that the key to heaven is a state of information, ideas, or beliefs in the brain... whether by presence or absence. In fact it seems to me the lack of Truth in the child convicts the parents. I further have seen that I can drive nowhere real fast with all the Truth (power) in the world if I don't absorb the key lessons... lessons that appear to require duplication individually.
 
This topic brings to my mind this writing of Saint John Chrysostom

HOMILIES OF ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM,

ARCHBISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE,

ON THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ST. MATTHEW

HOMILY I.

IT were indeed meet for us not at all to require the aid of the written Word, but to exhibit a life so pure, that the grace of the Spirit should be instead of books to our souls, and that as these are inscribed with ink, even so should our hearts be with the Spirit. But, since we have utterly put away from us this grace, come, let us at any rate embrace the second best course.
For that the former was better, God hath made manifest, both by His words, and by His doings. Since unto Noah, and unto Abraham, and unto his offspring, and unto Job, and unto Moses too, He discoursed not by writings, but Himself by Himself, finding their mind pure. But after the whole people of the Hebrews had fallen into the very pit of wickedness, then and thereafter was a written word, and tables, and the admonition which is given by these.
And this one may perceive was the case, not of the saints in the Old Testament only, but also of those in the New. For neither to the apostles did God give anything in writing, but instead of written words He promised that He would give them the grace of the Spirit: for "He," saith our Lord, "shall bring all things to your remembrance." And that thou mayest learn that this was far better, hear what He saith by the Prophet: "I will make a new covenant with you, putting my laws into their mind, and in their heart I will write them," and, "they shall be all taught of God." And Paul too, pointing out the same superiority, said, that they had received a law "not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."
But since in process of time they made shipwreck, some with regard to doctrines, others as to life and manners, there was again need that they should be put in remembrance by the written word.
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